Moved Thread How much of GWS's list is SOS's fault/credit?

[Thetrader15]

There's a bit of validation seeking going on lately from GWS fans on here. Yeah they recruited well, but **** me how many early picks do you want?

GWS remind me a bit of rich kids who go to top private school. 'I don't care about money, I've worked hard to get where I am'. Yeah you might have, but you didn't exactly start on the bottom rung of the social ladder.

The 2010 draft also wasn't actually that good. Gold Coast missed the following in the real first round:

4 Gaff
5 Polec
6 Conca
8 Heppell
12 Cook
14 Brodie Smith
15 Smedts
16 Jacobs
17 Atley

Heppell and Gaff would've been preferable to Day, and Smith is great - but you can't win them all.

They missed 19 Isaac Smith & 26 Darling, but let's not pretend any other club was going to take them in the first 17 picks.

Zone selections gave them Dixon, May, Smith and Thompson and some no names. Their underage selections were all a bit meh. Rischitelli, Ablett, Harbrow are ticks. The rest of the uncontracted guys crosses. Easy to compare to GWS but none of Davis, Scully, Ward were available at the end of 2010.

If you compare that to 2011:

1 Jonathon Patton
2 Stephen Coniglio
3 Dom Tyson
4 Will Hoskin-Elliott
5 Matt Buntine
6 Chad Wingard
7 Nick Haynes
8 Billy Longer
9 Adam Tomlinson
10 Liam Sumner
11 Toby Greene
12 Sam Docherty
13 Taylor Adams
14 Devon Smith
15 Brandon Ellis
16 Tom Sheridan
17 Clay Smith
18 Brad McKenzie

That's a solid first round even without Treloar, Cameron, Shiel etc. as underagers. Wingard or Docherty might have been nice, but it's impossible to take 10 picks in that lot and not get at least a couple right. Even guys like Ellis & Clay Smith would've been handy.

I think people are a bit harsh on Gold Coast.

Too many facts for BF thanks

 

[pinot]

Of course it's more than that. He did well to pick up Mumford and Shaw but he's certainly not some hot commodity. He's a middle of the road list manager/recruiter that has made some very poor decisions and some very good decisions.

Like bringing Mnuzugu, Delidio, Deboar on decent deals and pricing out Kelly of a big contract - this is what precisely what has happened after two years of SOS's departure. His last big move was bringing in Stevie J.

So what mistakes has he done?

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

Like bringing Mnuzugu, Delidio, Deboar on decent deals and pricing out Kelly of a big contract - this is what precisely what has happened after two years of SOS's departure. His last big move was bringing in Stevie J.

So what mistakes has he done?

Deboer and Mzungu are at less than $190,000 a season and three quarters of Deledio's contract is covered by Richmond.

As for pricing Kelly out of a big contract, I suggest you do a little research before you make such ridiculous statements.

 

[Scotland]

Kelly is priced out of a big contract.

But he's priced out of a big contract at most clubs. No club challenging for a flag has the sort of cap space that North/St Kilda do.

 

[Scotland]

Now some are duds and some are double accounted (e.g. you can't have Marchbank and Boyd) but that's a lot of players turned over.

B: Frost Hombsch Bugg
HB: Marchbank Townsend Hampton
C: Plowman Tyson O'Rourke
HF: Palmer Boyd Hoskin-Elliott
F: Pickett Bruce McCarthy
Foll: Giles, Treloar, Adams

IC: Barrett Lamb Miles Phillips

People would be shitting all over Gold Coast if they had lost that many players.

 

[Giant Strides]

People would be shitting all over Gold Coast if they had lost that many players.

There's a thread on the GCS board that does the comparison between GCS and GWS players in & out- the GCS losses are broadly comparable to GWS, but the major difference is that GCS lost a lot for nothing (a lot simply delisted), while GWS has traded most of theirs out (hence why you can construct a team out of them!). You can argue that the selections weren't all top quality, but there was certainly a reasonable standard of quality for most.

I'd also add that commenting about 'a big turnover' neglects the facts of how the AFL provided the startup. Both clubs had something like 50 listed players for the first couple of years, so of course there was always going to be a big turnover in bringing just the list size down to standard, let alone finding quality on the lists. And the fact is that AFL expected players to bail from the new non-AFL clubs, so bulked up starting numbers to allow for that. You may dislike the rationale, but it remains true that there was method to their madness.

 

[Scotland]

There's a thread on the GCS board that does the comparison between GCS and GWS players in & out- the GCS losses are broadly comparable to GWS, but the major difference is that GCS lost a lot for nothing (a lot simply delisted), while GWS has traded most of theirs out (hence why you can construct a team out of them!). You can argue that the selections weren't all top quality, but there was certainly a reasonable standard of quality for most.

I'd also add that commenting about 'a big turnover' neglects the facts of how the AFL provided the startup. Both clubs had something like 50 listed players for the first couple of years, so of course there was always going to be a big turnover in bringing just the list size down to standard, let alone finding quality on the lists. And the fact is that AFL expected players to bail from the new non-AFL clubs, so bulked up starting numbers to allow for that. You may dislike the rationale, but it remains true that there was method to their madness.

Agree with a lot of this.

On top of the team I put up there are another 15-20 other players who've played for GWS, plus listed guys who never made it that far. 80 players used in 5 and a half seasons, Gold Coast 95 in 6 and a half. Pretty comparable in sheer numbers. Standard list turnover is usually about 5 or 6 players per season, so in GWS case if you take an initial list of 50 reducing down to 40 over 5 years or so then it's about right. My point about losing those 22 above is that with a list as strong as GWS have now, it's crazy to think the likes of Treloar, Adams, Boyd, Tyson, Hombsch etc. have been and gone - and yes you can't count those + Shaw, Griffen etc.

I maintain the AFL concessions deliberately went overboard to account for player retention, but in doing that I think they went too far with the mini draft and academy concessions. I'd also have staged expanding from 16 to 18 if I was in charge. GC and GWS and coming in one after the other really compromised the draft for a 2-4 year period when you factor in underage selections, first round picks, mini draft selections and the fact that both teams were always going to be spooners early days.

 

[LFTWNG11]

the GCS losses are broadly comparable to GWS, but the major difference is that GCS lost a lot for nothing (a lot simply delisted), while GWS has traded most of theirs out (hence why you can construct a team out of them!).

Sounds like the work of a good list manager, i.e. getting good value for players wanting out/not wanted.

 

[dlanod]

Sounds like the work of a good list manager, i.e. getting good value for players wanting out/not wanted.

Yep:

No complaints about SOS's trade efforts though.

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

Time for a bump I think. Carlton are showing very little improvement, yesterday was embarrassing. SOS returned to much fanfare in 2014 and has three years to steady the ship. But the results are not there. He had a horrible reputation at the Giants for blowing picks and its looking the same at Carlton. SPS was an obvious hit and Curnow is looking good too. But apart from that, there's very little to show for a lot of trust and faith by Carlton whose supporters deserve a lot better than the dosh being served up at the moment.

Will be interesting to see how long he lasts if the Blues can't turn it around, and if it is he or Bolton who gets pushed first.

 

[Jeremias]

Time for a bump I think.

What a surprise.

Disappointing result yesterday but once again the kids showed some good signs.

Your SOS obssssion is getting a little sad now.

 

[adammania9]

Remember their first three selections in 2015 were all KPP’s - Curnow looks great and Weitering has shown glimpses, which is always good for a what? 40 gamer? McKay’s journey has been held back by injuries and now that he’s getting a run, he looks like a solid prospect.

KPP’s usually break out at around 60-70 games so I say come back at the end of the year at the minimum before analysing SOS’ handiwork. Carlton’s list at the conclusion of Malthouse’s reign was seriously bad, one of the worst ever if I’m honest and I think we are all forgetting that. Results will come, like they did for Melbourne.


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[schmuttt]

I mean the fact he drafted his son (Who is rubbish) says it all.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Cameron
Wilson
Shiel
Mohr
A.Kennedy
Ward
Scully
Davis
Reid
Patton
Coniglio
Buntine
Haynes
Tomlinson
Greene
Smith
Downie

Those are the stibbard era players

Whitfield
Corr
Kelly
Lobb
Shaw
Mumford
Griffen

These are the remaining players picked under SOS that weren't Academy gimmes which were Williams and finlayson

Hopper
M.Kennedy
Himmelberg
Flynn
Lloyd
Taranto
Setterfield
Perryman
Cumming
Tiziani
De Boer
M'Zungu
Sproule
Stein
Patfull
Deledio

These are all post SOS

A few missed here:

Treloar = 2x 1sts
Marchbank, Pickett = 1st
Boyd = 1st plus Griffen
McCarthy = 1st
Jaksch, Whiley = upgrade 1st
Tyson = upgrade 1st (pick that got Kelly)

And I am sure there are more ...

Other clubs would salivate to get such value, and constantly, for their offcuts.

Surely the reducing list size has a fair bit to do with the assessment?

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Time for a bump I think. Carlton are showing very little improvement, yesterday was embarrassing. SOS returned to much fanfare in 2014 and has three years to steady the ship. But the results are not there. He had a horrible reputation at the Giants for blowing picks and its looking the same at Carlton. SPS was an obvious hit and Curnow is looking good too. But apart from that, there's very little to show for a lot of trust and faith by Carlton whose supporters deserve a lot better than the dosh being served up at the moment.

Will be interesting to see how long he lasts if the Blues can't turn it around, and if it is he or Bolton who gets pushed first.

And one week before? Exciting brand of footy with several youngsters. And when Carlton beat GWS last year?

You missed Fisher.

Carlton’s list is not as deep in talent yet as say GWS and other clubs. Many Carlton supporters understand this.

And so Carlton cannot at this stage sustain form with a run of injuries ... Kreuzer, Kennedy, Williamson, Lang, Pickett, Docherty ... back up rucks in Lobbe injured, Phillips underdone and De Koning is too raw.

And Carlton/SOS is not sitting on its hand with list management, turning over 42 players in 3 years, being active in trading, improving our draft choices (we were previously awful at late round draft picks) taking on a delisted FA or 2. We have the draft picks we are dealt with and we are getting on with it.

So what is your point? Carlton has a bad game and it is all SOS’ fault?

How did GWS go in its first 2 or so years with so many talented youngsters and a few experienced hard bodies?

Consider this, you lost Mumford at the end of last year and you had a decent ruckman on your list who can replace him in Lobb, who is more than handy pushing forward and kicking a goal. Who recruited him? What Pick was he taken at? What other club could have easily just lost a Mumford and not have to worry about trading for or drafting a ruck?

 

[GapInIkonPark]

I mean the fact he drafted his son (Who is rubbish) says it all.

Perspective.

Same draft -

Sam Weideman - Pick 9 - Career 10 games, 6 goals.

Jack Silvagni - Pick 53 - Career 29 games 26 goals.

Not at all rubbish for a later draft pick in a team with shallow depth in midfield.

 

[Thetrader15]

Gee, I hope pick 10 Lochie O'Brien ends up being a good one

Pick 11 Aiden Bonar

Pick 12 Darcy Fogarty

 

[foj1]

Essendon bid on his son if he wasn’t a blue he would be a bomber.

Perspective.

Same draft -

Sam Weideman - Pick 9 - Career 10 games, 6 goals.

Jack Silvagni - Pick 53 - Career 29 games 26 goals.

Not at all rubbish for a later draft pick in a team with shallow depth in midfield.

 

[schmuttt]

Perspective.

Same draft -

Sam Weideman - Pick 9 - Career 10 games, 6 goals.

Jack Silvagni - Pick 53 - Career 29 games 26 goals.

Not at all rubbish for a later draft pick in a team with shallow depth in midfield.

Weideman was a consensus top 10 pick at the time and most Melbourne supporters are happy to admit they’re slightly worried about him atm. Silvagni has zero elite traits and is soft, his journeyman cousin is a better afl level player.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Weideman was a consensus top 10 pick at the time and most Melbourne supporters are happy to admit they’re slightly worried about him atm. Silvagni has zero elite traits and is soft, his journeyman cousin is a better afl level player.

Disagree.

Jack Silvagni if anything has exceeded expectations to this stage for a pick beyond 50.

Disagree on ‘soft’ call too. Played much of last year with a shoulder injury.

 

[BPikkers]

Weideman was a consensus top 10 pick at the time and most Melbourne supporters are happy to admit they’re slightly worried about him atm. Silvagni has zero elite traits and is soft, his journeyman cousin is a better afl level player.

I disagree. I think Silvagni isn’t bad at all. Very clean hands tackles and has some obvious skill. Sure he is going through a rough period but he is a far better player than Weideman who is slow and shown little. And yes putting it in perspective you are comparing a pick in the 50s to a top 10 pick. Who gives a rats of ‘consensus’? Weideman hasn’t performed nearly as well as Silvagni up to this stage of their respective careers.

On a side note, I’m surprised Bolton never tried Silvagni in defence. I thought it was harsh dropping him to be honest.

 

[Pablito]

Time for a bump I think. Carlton are showing very little improvement, yesterday was embarrassing. SOS returned to much fanfare in 2014 and has three years to steady the ship. But the results are not there. He had a horrible reputation at the Giants for blowing picks and its looking the same at Carlton. SPS was an obvious hit and Curnow is looking good too. But apart from that, there's very little to show for a lot of trust and faith by Carlton whose supporters deserve a lot better than the dosh being served up at the moment.

Will be interesting to see how long he lasts if the Blues can't turn it around, and if it is he or Bolton who gets pushed first.

Clearly you have an agenda out against the club/sos that's obviously undeniable. But I'll bite anyway.

You omitted the fact that he has brought in players like marchbank, Plowman and Wright who will be around for a while. Also Picket and Kennedy who look very promising.

At the draft we can tick off as a 100% successful picks...weiters (poor form currently but shouldn't discount his past performances), curnow, sps and Fisher.

Also players who look very promising and are likely to make it... Cunningham, SOS, macreadie, Williamson, Dow and garlett.
The only high round pick who I'm not convinced on..McKay. and it's too early to make a call on is Lob.

Not bad considering he inherited a cluster *.

Can you tell me what SOS did to you? You can pm me if you're embarrassed, it's clear you harbor a deep hatred for him. I'm genuinely interested in knowing why you're so out to get him.

 

[Giant Strides]

The GWS and Carlton list positions were not exactly the same so cannot be directly compared - I think there's still some time required before properly assessing Carlton.