How Tasmania can have a team by 2023.

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SellarStardom

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So under the guidance of the AFL commission we have seen the Victorian state league bastardised until there is nothing left (what will be left when there is an AFL Reserves), the TSL now in collapse, then how long til the WAFL or SANFL look shaky.

AFL lists can comfortably have 45-50 players even with a reserves comp. That's 900 players which means there is only 70 players per year drafted. With the failure of state leagues that would mean there are very few pathways for players that are not drafted.

Outcome = rapidly declining participation, that's the future of aussie rules if we are not careful. Would a young kid dream of playing in the AFL right now if he lived in Davenport?? Appears participation is dropping off in Tassie, wowee!!

The only hope is for strong state leagues but to do that there needs to be more than just state league premierships and the limited funds associated up for grabs.

Alas I dont see any change soon and that could cause a slow death if people are not careful
 
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madmug

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So under the guidance of the AFL commission we have seen the Victorian state league bastardised until there is nothing left (what will be left when there is an AFL Reserves), the TSL now in collapse, then how long til the WAFL or SANFL look shaky.

AFL lists can comfortably have 45-50 players even with a reserves comp. That's 900 players which means there is only 70 players per year drafted. With the failure of state leagues that would mean there are very few pathways for players that are not drafted.

Outcome = rapidly declining participation, that's the future of aussie rules if we are not careful. Would a young kid dream of playing in the AFL right now if he lived in Davenport?? Appears participation is dropping off in Tassie, wowee!!

The only hope is for strong state leagues but to do that there needs to be more than just state league premierships and the limited funds associated up for grabs.

Alas I dont see any change soon and that could cause a slow death if people are not careful
Is 'Davenport' just past 'Perf'? :)
 

deltablues

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Why doesn't "Brett Stubbs" come up with a plan?



It's THE issue to the businessman at AFL house.
Agreed. But that is irrelevant to my comment on your statement.

And I have commented many times across many threads on the economics v the custodianship of the game conflict of interest. The AFL's hypocrisy is what interests me in this debate.
 

madmug

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Why doesn't "Brett Stubbs" come up with a plan?



It's THE issue to the businessman at AFL house.
At least Brett Stubbs is here with his boots on the ground. Whether his opinion is any more valid than anyone else is another matter. The 'Task force' has no meaningful local content. Squires is a light weight who was part-time in the office then became AFL CEO with no experience after Auld left. Again Auld's tenure was clearly ineffective. He was more interested in the pretend NM/Tas womens team & a promotion than doing his job. He did nothing to fix the loss of Western Storm & Burnie/Devonports problems were apparent to blind freddie whilst he did nothing.

This 'issue' should never have occurred. AFL did a review 2 years ago. Did it just get put on the shelf? Was it at all relevant?

The token Tasmanians on the 'committee' havent any recent experience but will have contacts here at least. But again they have an AFL perspective & not any recent local experience.

It needs some non AFL presence to give Tasmania a voice.

This sounds like a committee formed by the British Government at the foreign office to discuss the problem with the natives in one of their colonies. c1885 ;)

As far as 'business' goes. The AFL is full of double standards in that regard. They have to bankroll 1/2 the competition such are those double standards.
 

madmug

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The same 1/2 the competition that provides the income the AFL so graciously allows them to receive back. Right.
It seemed that when the commission was formed, the VFL competition was in financial trouble, as were many of the clubs. Maybe people were wrong?

So it was the clubs themselves who sorted their finances, put a cap on salaries, started a national draft, put money into elite development, did all the huge media deals, enabled the national push & growth of league presence & finances?

Thats amazing. People should know this.

The AFL. Just an office. The clubs that were broke in the 80's now support the whole game. Be buggered, who knew? ;)
 

The_Wookie

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It seemed that when the commission was formed, the VFL competition was in financial trouble, as were many of the clubs. Maybe people were wrong?

So it was the clubs themselves who sorted their finances, put a cap on salaries, started a national draft, put money into elite development, did all the huge media deals, enabled the national push & growth of league presence & finances?

Thats amazing. People should know this.

The AFL. Just an office. The clubs that were broke in the 80's now support the whole game. Be buggered, who knew? ;)
Dont be daft. The AFL gets its money out of thin air. Everyone knows that.

The Victorian clubs appointed the commission to do what they couldnt themsevles, look after the finances. Given the Commissions entire reason for existing is to make sure there are funds for the clubs and the leagues operations - funding for state comps was NOT an objective of the commission when founded - and given its the Commission that forces clubs into stadium deals and fixtures the clubs would rather not participate in if they had a choice - the fact that the league hands over money it could not earn without those clubs is entirely reasonable.

And before you go on about Victoria clubs, do some research into how much direct AFL income (71% of football income at the MCG goes to the AFL, but the clubs only received just under 40%) is derived from just the attendances as Etihad and the MCG, let alone the leveraging of Victorian crowds, tv ratings, radio ratings, advertising spends, and AFL members.
 

madmug

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Dont be daft. The AFL gets its money out of thin air. Everyone knows that.

The clubs appointed the commission to do what they couldnt, look after the finances. Given the Commissions entire reason for existing is to make sure there are funds for the clubs and the leagues operations - funding for state comps was NOT an objective of the commission when founded - and given its the Commission that forces clubs into stadium deals and fixtures the clubs would rather not participate in if they had a choice - the fact that the league hands over money it could not earn without those clubs is entirely reasonable.

And before you crap on about Victoria clubs, do some research into how much direct AFL income (71% of football income at the MCG goes to the AFL, but the clubs only received just under 40%) is derived from just the attendances as Etihad and the MCG, let alone the leveraging of Victorian crowds, tv ratings, radio ratings, advertising spends, and AFL members.
Indicating what the AFL commission did to drag the clubs out of their self inflicted financial myre, then complaining about how they did it seems a bit 'double standardish' if not plainly disingenuous really.

The Commission effectively saved clubs & the VFL from bankruptcy.

Do you think the AFL would get the media deal if they had clubs still playing at the Western Oval, Victoria park & Moorabbin? Would the clubs have survived if they'd been left to cherry pick the financial changes made by the Commission.?

The domination of the AFL has damaged all the state leagues below them. Should the AFL care? Should they only GAF about the current 18 clubs. Should they have stayed at just 14 (10+1+1+1+1) clubs so they could kill state leagues & call it a national comp?

How should the AFL play this anyway? Isn't that the question?
 

The_Wookie

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Indicating what the AFL commission did to drag the clubs out of their self inflicted financial myre, then complaining about how they did it seems a bit 'double standardish' if not plainly disingenuous really.
Its not. The AFL centralised its revenues for distribution, which is great on the one hand, but makes clubs reliant on them on the other.

The Commission effectively saved clubs & the VFL from bankruptcy.
Fancy that. Its almost like it was designed to do so.
 

madmug

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Its not. The AFL centralised its revenues for distribution, which is great on the one hand, but makes clubs reliant on them on the other.



Fancy that. Its almost like it was designed to do so.

Yes, by doing so the Commission saved clubs from going bust. Now they're complaining?

Mate thats like a heart surgeon saving your life, but then the patient bitches because they cant have a face lift done at the same time.

Talk about having your cake & eating it as well.
 

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The_Wookie

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Yes, by doing so the Commission saved clubs from going bust. Now they're complaining?

Mate thats like a heart surgeon saving your life, but then the patient bitches because they cant have a face lift done at the same time.

Talk about having your cake & eating it as well.
Actually the clubs arent complaining as long as they get distributions that cover what the Commission forces them into regarding an uneven fixture and poor stadium deals. You're the one complaining that the Commission does this. Im saying its justified.
 

madmug

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Actually the clubs arent complaining as long as they get distributions that cover what the Commission forces them into regarding an uneven fixture and poor stadium deals. You're the one complaining that the Commission does this. Im saying its justified.
Hang on!

You commented 'the same clubs provide the income the league allows them to receive back'.

Clearly not the whole truth by a long, long way.

The clubs couldn't make a go of it themselves. The Commission did all those things to allow some of those clubs to do what they wouldn't have done without the Commissions intervention, that was to SURVIVE.

You can't claim it both ways. They are on welfare to allow them to exist.

The fact they had 100 years to establish their future themselves, & couln't, shows the problem of too many clubs in one market.

If its about football politics, then that explains the crazy lop sided development out of the VFL.

If its run on 'commercial' lines, then they are terrible business operators, because its clearly not.
 

The_Wookie

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Hang on!

You commented 'the same clubs provide the income the league allows them to receive back'.

Clearly not the whole truth by a long, long way.

The clubs couldn't make a go of it themselves. The Commission did all those things to allow some of those clubs to do what they wouldn't have done without the Commissions intervention, that was to SURVIVE.

You can't claim it both ways. They are on welfare to allow them to exist.
I damn well can.

The Commission isnt out there drawing crowds, tv audiences, and memberships. The Commission doesnt sell merchandise. The Commission doesnt put a damn team on the park every weekend. Until it does, its handing money back to the clubs that the clubs earn for themselves. Thats the end of the story, the commission co-ordinates and manages money that it earns from the efforts of the clubs. As it was designed to.

The fact they had 100 years to establish their future themselves, & couln't, shows the problem of too many clubs in one market.
It shows what happens when you favour so called big clubs at the expense of smaller ones time and time again.

[qjuote]If its about football politics, then that explains the crazy lop sided development out of the VFL.[/quote]

It was about money, and power. It was the fact that the VFL felt they didnt need the other state leagues to go on their own. And they didnt.

If its run on 'commercial' lines, then they are terrible business operators, because its clearly not.
752 million in revenue this year for AFL HQ alone, 60 million in profit, and 135 million cash at hand. I think they do ok.
 

madmug

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I damn well can.

The Commission isnt out there drawing crowds, tv audiences, and memberships. The Commission doesnt sell merchandise. The Commission doesnt put a damn team on the park every weekend. Until it does, its handing money back to the clubs that the clubs earn for themselves. Thats the end of the story, the commission co-ordinates and manages money that it earns from the efforts of the clubs. As it was designed to.



It shows what happens when you favour so called big clubs at the expense of smaller ones time and time again.

[qjuote]If its about football politics, then that explains the crazy lop sided development out of the VFL.
It was about money, and power. It was the fact that the VFL felt they didnt need the other state leagues to go on their own. And they didnt.



752 million in revenue this year for AFL HQ alone, 60 million in profit, and 135 million cash at hand. I think they do ok.[/QUOTE]


Some clubs were struggling well before the AFL commission started. They should be thankful it did. Selling tickets, pies & beanies was clearly not enough to keep the VFL clubs alive for much longer..

The AFL commission did the huge media deals, not the clubs.

The AFL have taken the crowds & media interest & sponsorship away from state leagues by its expansion. Its just wealth tranfer. The clubs couldn't do this.

Yet those clubs still exist, benefit from the Commission, & the BF punters still moan.
 

The_Wookie

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Some clubs were struggling well before the AFL commission started. They should be thankful it did. Selling tickets, pies & beanies was clearly not enough to keep the VFL clubs alive for much longer..

The AFL commission did the huge media deals, not the clubs.
media deals not possible without the clubs.

The AFL have taken the crowds & media interest & sponsorship away from state leagues by its expansion. Its just wealth tranfer. The clubs couldn't do this.
ill say it again, the league isnt drawing the crowds to its board meetings. The league couldnt do any of it without the clubs.

Yet those clubs still exist, benefit from the Commission, & the BF punters still moan.
Dont leave yourself out here.
 
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madmug

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Some clubs were struggling well before the AFL commission started. They should be thankful it did. Selling tickets, pies & beanies was clearly not enough to keep the VFL clubs alive for much longer..

The AFL commission did the huge media deals, not the clubs.
media deals not possible without the clubs.



ill say it again, the league isnt drawing the crowds to its board meetings. The league couldnt do any of it without the clubs.



Dont leave yourself out here.[/QUOTE]

Your reply is a bit hard to follow. You seem to have my comments mixed up with yours!

Some clubs wouldn't exist without the commission.

I can moan as Tassie has none of the benefits of a national competition but suffererd all of the state league problems of being crushed by the AFL sucking up all the media & sponsorship opportunities.

Others moan despite the handouts coming from the Commission.
 

The_Wookie

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Chicken & Egg.
Given the present Commission as formed did not exist prior to 1993, and the clubs very much did - the last Victorian clubs were added in 1925 - and given the clubs put the Commission in place

The fact is some clubs cannot cut it unless protected heavily, for extended periods.
The fact is some clubs wouldnt need protection if they were dealt with in a fair manner - which they havent.

So much for the commercial imperitive some on here apply to anyone outside the AFL welfare state.
Its all about the commercial side of things and the fact that the Commission is doing the job it wasnt appointed to do in the first place appears to be lost on your bleating about the injustice caused by not handing a license to Tasmania that has literally no right to be granted, and can only be granted if those same clubs you write off agree that its in the interest of those clubs to grant the license in the first place,.
 

madmug

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Given the present Commission as formed did not exist prior to 1993, and the clubs very much did - the last Victorian clubs were added in 1925 - and given the clubs put the Commission in place



The fact is some clubs wouldnt need protection if they were dealt with in a fair manner - which they havent.



Its all about the commercial side of things and the fact that the Commission is doing the job it wasnt appointed to do in the first place appears to be lost on your bleating about the injustice caused by not handing a license to Tasmania that has literally no right to be granted, and can only be granted if those same clubs you write off agree that its in the interest of those clubs to grant the license in the first place,.
Clubs were delt with in a fair manner prior to the Commission, but they were going broke!

I'll 'bleat' about the AFL's shyte management of their own state level competition. If the don't want it then they can F&^C off.

I'll 'bleat' about the lopsided running of the AFL itself. Like how can the countries 2nd biggest market have 2 clubs & Port Philip area has 10 who clearly can't all compete. Thats not 'commercial' thats just dumb.

Left to 'market forces' & some of those clubs would die off or play in another competition. Thats being 'commercial'.
 

The_Wookie

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Clubs were delt with in a fair manner prior to the Commission, but they were going broke!

I'll 'bleat' about the AFL's shyte management of their own state level competition. If the don't want it then they can F&^C off.
And thats fair enough.

I'll 'bleat' about the lopsided running of the AFL itself. Like how can the countries 2nd biggest market have 2 clubs & Port Philip area has 10 who clearly can't all compete. Thats not 'commercial' thats just dumb.
Victoria is big enough to support all those clubs if the league dealt with all clubs even handedly. It hasnt done since the early 80s when the league guaranteed blockbuster fixtures and return games to big clubs at the expense of the smaller ones who then also copped the unpopular timeslots and non victorian teams at unprofitable venues they were forced to play at by the league.

Left to 'market forces' & some of those clubs would die off or play in another competition. Thats being 'commercial'.
Its called being willfully ignorant of reality. Market forces have been a consequence, not the cause.

Market forces didnt allocate the fixture, the Commission did. Market forces didnt allocate timeslots, the Commission did. Market forces didnt force clubs to play at Etihad, the Commission did. Market forces havent held ticket prices, and thus memberships down, the Government and the Commission have. The Commission even advises potential sponsors who to sponsor.
 

madmug

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And thats fair enough.



Victoria is big enough to support all those clubs if the league dealt with all clubs even handedly. It hasnt done since the early 80s when the league guaranteed blockbuster fixtures and return games to big clubs at the expense of the smaller ones who then also copped the unpopular timeslots and non victorian teams at unprofitable venues they were forced to play at by the league.



Its called being willfully ignorant of reality. Market forces have been a consequence, not the cause.

Market forces didnt allocate the fixture, the Commission did. Market forces didnt allocate timeslots, the Commission did. Market forces didnt force clubs to play at Etihad, the Commission did. Market forces havent held ticket prices, and thus memberships down, the Government and the Commission have. The Commission even advises potential sponsors who to sponsor.
The commission was put their precisely BECAUSE the clubs couldn't cut it. The rest is about the need to maximise income to support them. Victoria was not big enough. Thats why the AFL has to rely so much on its nation media deals. The fixture is about maximising that.

The fixture IS the end result of the market forces as they is.

The politics is choosing who to support, how much & why.
 

The_Wookie

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The commission was put their precisely BECAUSE the clubs couldn't cut it. The rest is about the need to maximise income to support them. Victoria was not big enough. Thats why the AFL has to rely so much on its nation media deals. The fixture is about maximising that.

The fixture IS the end result of the market forces as they is.

The politics is choosing who to support, how much & why.
The fixture is certainly NOT the end result of market forces. The fixture is the end of result of adding teams without expanding the number of rounds. This is the fundamental part of where the inequality of the Commissions dealing with Victorian clubs lies.

In 1986 the league had a 22 round competition, all teams played each other twice. clubs like North, St Kilda, and the Bulldogs had guaranteed return fixtures against Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon and Richmond. In 1987, the league added two teams, but didnt add rounds to accommodate the increase, and the smaller clubs began to lose much needed gate revenues, while the Collingwood-Carlton-Essendon cartel was guaranteed their blockbuster arrangements.

See also the monopolisation of holiday fixtures and season openers in recent times.

In any case, any fair fixture should and used to be random, prior to expansion. If your fixture fell on ANZAC Day or the Queens Birthday, well good for you, but it was never guaranteed.

Likewise the stadium deals at Etihad arent the result of market forces. The MCG wont talk to any club without the AFLs permission, and the AFL has signed over-riding game contracts with the MCG, and previously Etihad. Clubs arent free to choose where they play. The League has actively prevented the Dogs from playing at Kardinia Park, North from playing in Perth, Fitzroy from playing in Brisbane/Canberra and Hobart.
 

madmug

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The fixture is certainly NOT the end result of market forces. The fixture is the end of result of adding teams without expanding the number of rounds. This is the fundamental part of where the inequality of the Commissions dealing with Victorian clubs lies.

In 1986 the league had a 22 round competition, all teams played each other twice. clubs like North, St Kilda, and the Bulldogs had guaranteed return fixtures against Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon and Richmond. In 1987, the league added two teams, but didnt add rounds to accommodate the increase, and the smaller clubs began to lose much needed gate revenues, while the Collingwood-Carlton-Essendon cartel was guaranteed their blockbuster arrangements.

See also the monopolisation of holiday fixtures and season openers in recent times.

In any case, any fair fixture should and used to be random, prior to expansion. If your fixture fell on ANZAC Day or the Queens Birthday, well good for you, but it was never guaranteed.

Likewise the stadium deals at Etihad arent the result of market forces. The MCG wont talk to any club without the AFLs permission, and the AFL has signed over-riding game contracts with the MCG, and previously Etihad. Clubs arent free to choose where they play. The League has actively prevented the Dogs from playing at Kardinia Park, North from playing in Perth, Fitzroy from playing in Brisbane/Canberra and Hobart.
In 1986 the VFL was nearly closed down by Corporate affairs commissioner Gordon Lewis. That according to Age writer Jason Dowling (2016).

The 'fair & even fixture' of which you speak was clearly killing the league & the clubs leading up to & at that time.

Opening up the 'unfair' fixture & sucking money out of the whole nation via huge media deals has saved those suburban clubs. They are bloody lucky to be their at all. That is a clear fact.

The double act of the Port Philip 'clique' having the capacity to self sustain 10 clubs & the 'poor bugger me' act from supporters & others here on BF is pathetic, given the real facts of the VFL & where the real money comes from. GWS & GC is more of the same media circus than thinking they'll be commercial operations in their own right. Certainly anytime in the next 50 years or so.
 
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