Moved Thread How the northern academies are transforming footy

Herne Hill Hammer

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#26
Freo can only access indigenous players from two remote zones.
Does that mean that they have exclusive access to those two zones and then still have access to others across the rest of the state (provided they aren't in a WCE zone)?

Or does it mean that Freo and WCE can only recruit indigenous players from their respective zones and can't recruit any indigenous from any other parts of WA? Those other areas are for the other 16 teams to pick over.
 

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Tas

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#27
I have no issues with academies, just who runs them. The same result could be achieved by the AFL running the academies and hiring more past players to mentor developing kids and the talent pool should go into the draft.

I am glad we got Thomas, however, I still think the entire system is wrong.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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Thread starter #28
I have no issues with academies, just who runs them. The same result could be achieved by the AFL running the academies and hiring more past players to mentor developing kids and the talent pool should go into the draft.

I am glad we got Thomas, however, I still think the entire system is wrong.
Facts not in evidence I have to say. You can certainly have that view but there's no compelling reason to think the AFL can.
 

Tas

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#29
Facts not in evidence I have to say. You can certainly have that view but there's no compelling reason to think the AFL can.
There is nothing the clubs do that the AFL can't do, that is a reality. They have access to far more resources than any club has.
 

Tas

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#31
Clubs can develop players, it's an essential part of what they do. The AFL is unknown, that's the reality.
AFL is responsible for talent generation through the TAC system, particularly in Victoria where it controls football development. They have experience in player development, they produce the vast majority of the talent that enters the competition.

The draft is an important mechanism for controlling the distribution of talent, academies reduce the effectiveness of the draft as a balancing mechanism. Those who benefit from academies do not want to lose that advantage, I understand that. We have been down this road before where clubs developed their own junior talent, we dominated the old U19 system for more than a decade. The AFL rightfully decided that it was prone to making some teams too strong and the desire is for a level playing field.

Nothing you will say or have said about it will ever change that reality or my mind that academies are a bad thing for the competition. Sooner or later they will be gone, it just comes down to abusing it while the AFL are being short-sighted about it.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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Thread starter #32
AFL is responsible for talent generation through the TAC system, particularly in Victoria where it controls football development. They have experience in player development, they produce the vast majority of the talent that enters the competition.

The draft is an important mechanism for controlling the distribution of talent, academies reduce the effectiveness of the draft as a balancing mechanism. Those who benefit from academies do not want to lose that advantage, I understand that. We have been down this road before where clubs developed their own junior talent, we dominated the old U19 system for more than a decade. The AFL rightfully decided that it was prone to making some teams too strong and the desire is for a level playing field.

Nothing you will say or have said about it will ever change that reality or my mind that academies are a bad thing for the competition. Sooner or later they will be gone, it just comes down to abusing it while the AFL are being short-sighted about it.
The TAC cup is basically available to Victorians. I absolutely agree with the AFL supporting it. It's nothing like creating pathways in remote or foreign territory though.

The AFL has never shown it has the capacity to run theacademies effectively. It's counterinuitive that they have the skills. They certainly dont have the ckub links that allows us to bring kids down to train with the ckub and experience the system. Or to play NEAFL where appropriate.

That's the inescapable reality. What you believe is a matter for you.


.
 

Big Blood

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#33
AFL is responsible for talent generation through the TAC system, particularly in Victoria where it controls football development. They have experience in player development, they produce the vast majority of the talent that enters the competition.

The draft is an important mechanism for controlling the distribution of talent, academies reduce the effectiveness of the draft as a balancing mechanism. Those who benefit from academies do not want to lose that advantage, I understand that. We have been down this road before where clubs developed their own junior talent, we dominated the old U19 system for more than a decade. The AFL rightfully decided that it was prone to making some teams too strong and the desire is for a level playing field.

Nothing you will say or have said about it will ever change that reality or my mind that academies are a bad thing for the competition. Sooner or later they will be gone, it just comes down to abusing it while the AFL are being short-sighted about it.
The AFL is a league and so is TAC. Players play for clubs, not leagues. Clubs don't want to be competing against the AFL for talent. So even if the AFL wanted to get into the player recruitment and development business, the clubs wouldn't let them.

Plus it took nearly 30 years of Sydney/Brisbane expansion before the academies were finally set up, despite the continual request from those clubs for some AFL support for young player development. Whatever the faults of the northern academies, no one has come up with a remotely viable alternative.
 

kreglze

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#34
The AFL is a league and so is TAC. Players play for clubs, not leagues. Clubs don't want to be competing against the AFL for talent. So even if the AFL wanted to get into the player recruitment and development business, the clubs wouldn't let them.

Plus it took nearly 30 years of Sydney/Brisbane expansion before the academies were finally set up, despite the continual request from those clubs for some AFL support for young player development. Whatever the faults of the northern academies, no one has come up with a remotely viable alternative.
Aren't the academies in the TAC Cup this year or a similar competition?
 

General Giant

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#35
As soon as we have a national under 18s with clubs fairly distributed across the country and Grand Finals spread for all the nation, let alone caps on 3rd party deals etc outside the cap, will happily discuss the fairness of academies.

Till then. Meh.

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Tas

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#36
The AFL is a league and so is TAC. Players play for clubs, not leagues. Clubs don't want to be competing against the AFL for talent. So even if the AFL wanted to get into the player recruitment and development business, the clubs wouldn't let them.

Plus it took nearly 30 years of Sydney/Brisbane expansion before the academies were finally set up, despite the continual request from those clubs for some AFL support for young player development. Whatever the faults of the northern academies, no one has come up with a remotely viable alternative.
AFL is more than a league, it the national governing body for football. All players sign contracts with the AFL, they are all AFL employees and have a collective bargaining agreement with the AFL. Clubs sign a contract with the AFL to gain the services of players. If a club were to leave the AFL, they would lose all their players and they are prevented from joining rival leagues for a period of two years.

AFL mismanagement in the past isn't a compelling argument to continue a system which is currently broken.

Look, I am also happy for us to take advantage of our academy until it is eventually addressed, it doesn't make the current system right though. People are just too one-eyed to admit that self-interest compels them to fight for something they must know is completely bogus.
 

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General Giant

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#37
AFL is more than a league, it the national governing body for football. All players sign contracts with the AFL, they are all AFL employees and have a collective bargaining agreement with the AFL. Clubs sign a contract with the AFL to gain the services of players. If a club were to leave the AFL, they would lose all their players and they are prevented from joining rival leagues for a period of two years.

AFL mismanagement in the past isn't a compelling argument to continue a system which is currently broken.

Look, I am also happy for us to take advantage of our academy until it is eventually addressed, it doesn't make the current system right though. People are just too one-eyed to admit that self-interest compels them to fight for something they must know is completely bogus.
Like a home town grand final?

As said previously. Nationalise the under 18s as well as other areas and you may get support from Northern fans.

Until then we all just laugh at the double standards over complaining about bogus advantages.

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Isaac Cumming No 1

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Thread starter #38
AFL is more than a league, it the national governing body for football. All players sign contracts with the AFL, they are all AFL employees and have a collective bargaining agreement with the AFL. Clubs sign a contract with the AFL to gain the services of players. If a club were to leave the AFL, they would lose all their players and they are prevented from joining rival leagues for a period of two years.

AFL mismanagement in the past isn't a compelling argument to continue a system which is currently broken.

Look, I am also happy for us to take advantage of our academy until it is eventually addressed, it doesn't make the current system right though. People are just too one-eyed to admit that self-interest compels them to fight for something they must know is completely bogus.
If you read the OP my point was our academy is not all about us. Many players have, and will be assisted by our academy and strengthen other clubs.

We do take advantage where we can, that's obvious.
 

Kwality

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#39
I would like the same rules to be applied to people from Victoria, SA and WA.

I don't understand why there are different rules.
Its called growing the game, growing the player pool - not only but also, the established footy States get father/son, it'll be a while until GWS (for example)
get a father/son.

The academies are doing heaps for our game nationally.
 

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#40
AFL is more than a league, it the national governing body for football. All players sign contracts with the AFL, they are all AFL employees and have a collective bargaining agreement with the AFL. Clubs sign a contract with the AFL to gain the services of players. If a club were to leave the AFL, they would lose all their players and they are prevented from joining rival leagues for a period of two years.

AFL mismanagement in the past isn't a compelling argument to continue a system which is currently broken.

Look, I am also happy for us to take advantage of our academy until it is eventually addressed, it doesn't make the current system right though. People are just too one-eyed to admit that self-interest compels them to fight for something they must know is completely bogus.
I'm not disagreeing with your basic point - it would be good to have a neutral non-controversial youth development programme. I'm really just trying to give my explanation of why we ended up here. For whatever reason he AFL wouldn't or couldn't do large-scale youth development. But currently the impact is really small. NSW and Qld account for about 45% of our population but about 5% of draftees each year. In return we're building the game in a fundamental way such that even the Victorian clubs can't object.
 

Kwality

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#41
I'm not disagreeing with your basic point - it would be good to have a neutral non-controversial youth development programme. I'm really just trying to give my explanation of why we ended up here. For whatever reason he AFL wouldn't or couldn't do large-scale youth development. But currently the impact is really small. NSW and Qld account for about 45% of our population but about 5% of draftees each year. In return we're building the game in a fundamental way such that even the Victorian clubs can't object.
The northern academies :thumbsu: .... those in the traditional states have a long way to go proving they are the equivalent, i.e growing the game as well as popping out some real good potential AFL footballers & a heap of kids who have a good experience with Aussie Rules footy, even fans of the future.
I'm afraid the clubs in the traditional States with areas outside their home state will be cutting back as soon as it costs , costs, costs & they havent produced a Rioli or a Krakouer.
I'm keen to follow how imposing a couple of AFL clubs over the WAFC development program works, given bothe Eagles & Dockers have been active in that field well before Academies became 'the thing'.
 

Tas

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#42
I'm not disagreeing with your basic point - it would be good to have a neutral non-controversial youth development programme. I'm really just trying to give my explanation of why we ended up here. For whatever reason he AFL wouldn't or couldn't do large-scale youth development. But currently the impact is really small. NSW and Qld account for about 45% of our population but about 5% of draftees each year. In return we're building the game in a fundamental way such that even the Victorian clubs can't object.
I understand, however, we can and must object if the result of a significant amount of influx of talent is going to enter the AFL competition via 4 clubs. Swans are already hard enough to dislodge from the top 8.

Now that we have a good blueprint of what works, the AFL must step in and take it over and multiply it tenfold, it is their mandate, clubs are meant to stay away of grass roots development.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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I understand, however, we can and must object if the result of a significant amount of influx of talent is going to enter the AFL competition via 4 clubs. Swans are already hard enough to dislodge from the top 8.

Now that we have a good blueprint of what works, the AFL must step in and take it over and multiply it tenfold, it is their mandate, clubs are meant to stay away of grass roots development.
Who said clubs are meant to say away? In your world there'd be no school visits, no sending players to junior training sessions as we do on a regular basis. That's absurd.
 

General Giant

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#43
I understand, however, we can and must object if the result of a significant amount of influx of talent is going to enter the AFL competition via 4 clubs. Swans are already hard enough to dislodge from the top 8.

Now that we have a good blueprint of what works, the AFL must step in and take it over and multiply it tenfold, it is their mandate, clubs are meant to stay away of grass roots development.
No they shouldnt. Why change something that works?

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#45
I understand, however, we can and must object if the result of a significant amount of influx of talent is going to enter the AFL competition via 4 clubs. Swans are already hard enough to dislodge from the top 8.

Now that we have a good blueprint of what works, the AFL must step in and take it over and multiply it tenfold, it is their mandate, clubs are meant to stay away of grass roots development.
Its really zones-lite not VFL style, & its been happening in WA since the 90s but with no right to the kids pre draft. Different rules for the developing markets, no priority, kids into the draft pool.

I dont see the AFL involvement with kids a good fit, again in WA, the WAFL clubs junior development produces the bulk of the talent & it relys on volunteer labour in the main.

I'd also question the suggestion that the 4 development clubs are getting an influx of talent, long way to go as I see it. The Swans academy (funded by QBE) has been around a long time now, much longer than most of the other clubs .
 

the big lebowski

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#46
Let the AFL run all academies, thus no draft concessions to anyone. Best of both worlds. Make father son the only draft variable.

I wonder how interested the gws, swans, lions and Gold Coast fans would be in the academies if they didn’t get first dibs on the players.
 

Tas

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#47
Its really zones-lite not VFL style, & its been happening in WA since the 90s but with no right to the kids pre draft. Different rules for the developing markets, no priority, kids into the draft pool.
Yes, we have been through zones as well, they are bad if your intention is to have a level playing field because zones typically do not evenly produce the same caliber of talent.

I dont see the AFL involvement with kids a good fit, again in WA, the WAFL clubs junior development produces the bulk of the talent & it relys on volunteer labour in the main.
AFL isn't exactly "Big Brother" that micromanages every aspect of football, wherever humanly possible it delegates responsibility and authority instead focusing on oversight and bigger picture aspects of football. Victorian football is run by AFL Victoria, Tasmania is AFL Tasmania, etc Some would suggest they are too hands-off and should get involved more, like with AFL Tasmania which has mismanaged football in Tasmania. If WA ever entered the fold it would be little more than rebranding to AFL WA with greater financial support and access to more resources, leadership and decision making would largely still be in the hands of WA people to run programs for WA.

WA has a far greater capacity to produce significantly more footballers than it actually does, as does South Australia. I am sure they are doing as good a job as their resources allow them to do and football clubs will always rely on volunteer work. It is not like everyone in Victoria associated with grass roots development is on the AFL payroll.

I'd also question the suggestion that the 4 development clubs are getting an influx of talent, long way to go as I see it. The Swans academy (funded by QBE) has been around a long time now, much longer than most of the other clubs .
They don't get everyone, but they get the pick of the best ones, which is the major problem given you can pay for them with garbage picks.

At present, the AFL is prepared to make short-term compromises to the integrity of the competition just so it can maximise the investment it has made in NSW and QLD. Money and how much the AFL can make, how much of a market share it has, etc is not my primary motivation. I couldn't care less if nobody from NSW or QLD has any real interest in AFL or not. It is great if they do, don't care if they don't.

If these teams need financial support, then fine. However, there should be no support that compromises the integrity of the game itself and no support which create on-field imbalance. If expansion clubs can't compete on-field with the same set of rules everyone else has to deal with then perhaps expansion was a bad idea to begin with. You can't expect supporters of other clubs to potentially have to wait decades for a realistic chance of success for what, so we can maximise broadcasting rights? How superficial are people?

I want teams that have worked the hardest to get the rewards, not the clubs that has milked the system the most. There has been far too much success already by teams milking the system, be it priority picks or whatever. It needs to stop, our competition is becoming a farce.
 

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#49
Academies and zones fly in the face of a truly national competition. Conceding that some clubs need assistance by way of priority access to local talent is conceding that these clubs would not be viable otherwise. I understand that academies are good for the players in areas with less AFL exposure, but there is no need for club alignment when the AFL can sponsor academies directly and not indirectly through individual clubs.

If the issue is young talent leaving, raise the draft age. Allow for a better national competition under the AFL to create better pathways for older and more mature players, as opposed to being drafted straight out of Year 12.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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Thread starter #50
Academies and zones fly in the face of a truly national competition. Conceding that some clubs need assistance by way of priority access to local talent is conceding that these clubs would not be viable otherwise. I understand that academies are good for the players in areas with less AFL exposure, but there is no need for club alignment when the AFL can sponsor academies directly and not indirectly through individual clubs.

If the issue is young talent leaving, raise the draft age. Allow for a better national competition under the AFL to create better pathways for older and more mature players, as opposed to being drafted straight out of Year 12.
Your argument would be a lit stronger stronger if there was any evidence the AFL could run the academies.

It doesn't sponsor them directly or indirectly of course in any significant way. Some seed funding was provided as for the NGA academies.
 
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