Moved Thread How the northern academies are transforming footy

General Giant

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#51
Academies and zones fly in the face of a truly national competition. Conceding that some clubs need assistance by way of priority access to local talent is conceding that these clubs would not be viable otherwise. I understand that academies are good for the players in areas with less AFL exposure, but there is no need for club alignment when the AFL can sponsor academies directly and not indirectly through individual clubs.

If the issue is young talent leaving, raise the draft age. Allow for a better national competition under the AFL to create better pathways for older and more mature players, as opposed to being drafted straight out of Year 12.
As soon as it truly is a national comp with all that entails then no worries.
Will stop the academies as they are.

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Kwality

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#52
Let the AFL run all academies, thus no draft concessions to anyone. Best of both worlds. Make father son the only draft variable.

I wonder how interested the gws, swans, lions and Gold Coast fans would be in the academies if they didn’t get first dibs on the players.
Father/son has to go IF you want any sort of equity, do you?
 

Kwality

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#53
Let the AFL run all academies, thus no draft concessions to anyone. Best of both worlds. Make father son the only draft variable.

I wonder how interested the gws, swans, lions and Gold Coast fans would be in the academies if they didn’t get first dibs on the players.
The Swans acted because the AFL efforts were ineffective.
 

Kwality

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#54
If they hired the same people doing the actual work then why not?
Lots of volunteers involved, how many AFL employees are there outside Melbourne ?

The 'burbs' of the Melbourne or Perth have different dynamics to Sydney & Brisbane , look at WA compared to Vic in terms of geography, its a tough gig if you centralise the management.
 

blitzer

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#55
I think the point system works, But there shouldn't be a discount, If they want these guys they should be willing to go into deficit for them.
I just want the discount's removed for first rounders (for academies / father son and all other similar programs). First rounders taken with a discount distorts the draft as an equalisation tool.

Other than that I think academies and father son rule are both good for the game.
 

General Giant

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#57
Father son is randomly fair for 16 of the 18 clubs. Given that the other 2 were given extraordinary draft and trade concessions alls fair until they can start having their own father sons.
Lol.

Gotta protect those advantages, oops I mean tradition

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#58
Ranting and raving aside, they are doing a good job of developing talent and showing that young talent a clear pathway.
GWS, in particular, has shown with equalisation measures you can’t warehouse talent and the players end up around the league. Be it from academies or draft concessions.
Is the lad Rayner any relation to Cam Rayner?
Has GWS lost any academy players they wanted to keep?
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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Has GWS lost any academy players they wanted to keep?
Well depends on how you look at it. We've always drafted successfully the ones we want.

Losing guys like Jack Steele and Matt Kennedy has hurt supporters. Matt Kennedy wasn't offerred a contract though and I'm not sure how hard we tried with Steele. It's a cold business sometimes.

Difficult topic if the club should prioritise them, or just look at it coldly from a list management point of view.

Personally I hope Nick Shipley and Kieran Briggs are given priority as western Sydney boys.

Isaac Cumming is from my hometown so it would hurt me if he was traded. Lachie Tiziani and Kobe Mutch are too. Tiziani was sadly de-listed last year and Kobe Mutch is a Bombers player so it's no fairytale.
 

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Marc_Remillard

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#63
Why fiddle with success? It didnt happen overnight, only drew attention when it produced A graders like Heeney & Mills ... both of these guys could easily have playing either of the rugby codes successfully & the AFL would be the loser. Remember QBE funded the Swans Academy initially (2010).

I see the development States as worthy of support, but you seem focussed on individual clubs. Recent changes to give zones to clubs from the traditional States is a sop to those who care more about their club than the game & its certainly not well considered in my view.

Father/son are an advantage based on the roll of the dice, but its either all clubs or none as I see it.
Mills play rugby? Go back and have a look at his background, even his mum said that when he was young (way before the academies where even created) he always carried a football around with him. Have a look at his family background. Nice try but no cigar.

What success exactly are you talking about? The AFL having to constantly change the rules and bringing in pseudo academies for Vic clubs is not succeed, it's the AFL admitting that they ****** up.

I tried to have a discussion about the AFL taking over the development of the game in the States, but you were the one who accused me of being anti-GWS, so don't try that crap with me. You turned this into an argument about individual clubs, not me.

Sure, with F/S take them all away, no problem from me. But as I have already stated that advantage that most clubs have from the rule is tiny in comparison to what Sydney gets from their ridiculous academy.

Why should Sydney have an academy anyway? They don't have the same problems that GWS and GCS have.
 

Kwality

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#64
You dont need to tell me about Ray Mills, I saw him win a 3peat. with Perth & play for WA. His brother John also played for Perth.
Same era as Frank Pyke, Bob Bosustow, Cabes, Bob Page ....
Injury saw early retirement & he went East (Sydney) to work.
My understanding is Callum was enticed to the Swans academy by a friend of his father, a bloke called Andrew Pridham who would have been well aware of who Ray Mills is.
You can keep your cigar, you'd be a late comer to Mills heritage.

Why should the Swans have an academy you ask, to grow the game in NSW & this will increase the talent pool in a way our game has failed since the VFL moved South out of the overcrowded Melbourne market.

I simply dont share your club focus, the game is the bigger picture.

I do share your view that the academy structure in the traditional States is SNAFU AFL style, just a sop to those who see it as advantage that their club doesnt have, a bit like the GF location ...
 

Kwality

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#65
I think the point system works, But there shouldn't be a discount, If they want these guys they should be willing to go into deficit for them.
Understand your point on the discount, dont agree, I'd prefer the developing States clubs to be forced to take a couple of draftees out of their State, it'd range from a bonanza to military medium.
 

telsor

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#66
I think some allowance should be made for the differing values of the academies assigned to clubs (and treat FS as part of this).

The way I'd do it is to put an annual limit on the discount each club gets...Say equivalent to the full 20% on an end of first round pick (~200pts).

If you get a player better than that, you still get to jump the queue, but you only get the 200pts discount (so you get pick 1 for 3000-200=2800 pts rather than the current 3000*0.8=2400pts), while a pick later than that gets the full 20%. If you get multiple players, then you might end up paying full price for the later ones (but still get the advantage of jumping the queue), while if you don't get any, then some of that 200pts carries over to the next year.

I'd also force clubs to have a pick somewhat close to the player in question to get rid of the farce of clubs trading down for pts when they know they have a top line player available....Say, if you get a first round player, you need a pick within 10 places, a 2nd rounder needs to be within 20, 3rd or later, within 30. (maybe allow clubs to go outside that, but force them to pay a premium if they do)...This could also work in conjunction with live trading of picks.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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I think we have to wait and see where this goes.

There is scope to look at the drafting rules in my opinion.

I'm not a fan generally of jumping down the throat of the games administration about these kind of things, often it's just cheap shots. It does seem the rules around the academies generally haven't been well thought out and changes are ad hoc and reactive, driven by club politics.

Whatever you think about the changes to our zones it should have been possible to predict and plan correctly from the beginning.

The trading of bunches of rubbish picks to gain points was also dealt with reactively when it should have been predictable.

The silliest move clearly though was the "GWS" rule where the Northern clubs can only match one bid in the top 10 in the draft if the club finishes in the top 4. We had a bumper crop from the academy in 2016 and finished top 4 that prompted the rule, very unlikely ever to be repeated particularly with the zone changes. It's incredibly unlikely the rule will ever affect a club.

Undoubtedly the NGA academies were a sop to the other clubs . I think there is real potential for them to positively impact indigenous communities, but it seems some communities are inexplicably excluded.

In short it seems like a mess and a review isn't a bad thing. Whatever the outcome the baby needs to be retained though, IMO. The academies do great work in developing the gane and providing pathways which wouldn't otherwise exist.
 

Kwality

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#71
The AFL will seek to mix the two separate issues (NGA, northern development) whilst ignoring the father/son rule.

Be absolutely certain it is the success of the development of the game in the northern states that is behind this move by the AFL.

Here is an example of priority gone wrong, he should be in the draft, what have the Hawks* done here:
…..Todd Garner, the younger brother of Port Adelaide's Joel, will play for the Eastern Ranges.
Garner is eligible to join Hawthorn as a Next Generation Academy player given his indigenous background.

* no criticism of the Hawks is meant, just an example of the NGA at work. NGA = SNAFU !!
 
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telsor

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#72
I think we have to wait and see where this goes.

There is scope to look at the drafting rules in my opinion.

I'm not a fan generally of jumping down the throat of the games administration about these kind of things, often it's just cheap shots. It does seem the rules around the academies generally haven't been well thought out and changes are ad hoc and reactive, driven by club politics.

Whatever you think about the changes to our zones it should have been possible to predict and plan correctly from the beginning.

The trading of bunches of rubbish picks to gain points was also dealt with reactively when it should have been predictable.

The silliest move clearly though was the "GWS" rule where the Northern clubs can only match one bid in the top 10 in the draft if the club finishes in the top 4. We had a bumper crop from the academy in 2016 and finished top 4 that prompted the rule, very unlikely ever to be repeated particularly with the zone changes. It's incredibly unlikely the rule will ever affect a club.

Undoubtedly the NGA academies were a sop to the other clubs . I think there is real potential for them to positively impact indigenous communities, but it seems some communities are inexplicably excluded.

In short it seems like a mess and a review isn't a bad thing. Whatever the outcome the baby needs to be retained though, IMO. The academies do great work in developing the gane and providing pathways which wouldn't otherwise exist.

Agreed, it was a kneejerk reaction to a problem. As football grows in the northern states, the benefits those clubs gained from the academies was always going to grow (arguably it's too big already, but that's a separate matter).

The trouble was, that they & the northern clubs had spun the northern academies to be all about growing the game, that clubs HAD TO be involved and that the benefits the clubs got was largely incidental, so when somebody came up with the bright idea of doing the same thing in multicultural communities (and tacked on aboriginal communities for the PR value), and attaching them to other clubs, the powers that be could hardly argue against it without showing their own idiocy.

The solution should have been to have a plan in place to have a phased reduction in the clubs involvement/benefit in northern academies and all such programs to be under the state bodies...but the spin had gone too far for that to ever get through.
 

Kwality

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#73
Agreed, it was a kneejerk reaction to a problem. As football grows in the northern states, the benefits those clubs gained from the academies was always going to grow (arguably it's too big already, but that's a separate matter).

The trouble was, that they & the northern clubs had spun the northern academies to be all about growing the game, that clubs HAD TO be involved and that the benefits the clubs got was largely incidental, so when somebody came up with the bright idea of doing the same thing in multicultural communities (and tacked on aboriginal communities for the PR value), and attaching them to other clubs, the powers that be could hardly argue against it without showing their own idiocy.

The solution should have been to have a plan in place to have a phased reduction in the clubs involvement/benefit in northern academies and all such programs to be under the state bodies...but the spin had gone too far for that to ever get through.
:thumbsu: good approach but whats the time frame on the developing State academies, & what is the thinking behind that time frame, knee jerk reactions to Isaac Heeney (drafted 2014) & Callum Mills (2015 draft) .... their success drives the whingers, 2016/17 anyone (pardon my ignorance?)

NGAs :thumbsdown::thumbsdown: spot on, schmozzle SNAFU: have not had enough time to produce IMHO yet clubs are being given priority as window dressing for the virtue signallers. A totally worthless restriction on the draft pool.
 

General Giant

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#74
Agreed, it was a kneejerk reaction to a problem. As football grows in the northern states, the benefits those clubs gained from the academies was always going to grow (arguably it's too big already, but that's a separate matter).

The trouble was, that they & the northern clubs had spun the northern academies to be all about growing the game, that clubs HAD TO be involved and that the benefits the clubs got was largely incidental, so when somebody came up with the bright idea of doing the same thing in multicultural communities (and tacked on aboriginal communities for the PR value), and attaching them to other clubs, the powers that be could hardly argue against it without showing their own idiocy.

The solution should have been to have a plan in place to have a phased reduction in the clubs involvement/benefit in northern academies and all such programs to be under the state bodies...but the spin had gone too far for that to ever get through.
You call it benefits I'll call it tradition...

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telsor

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#75
:thumbsu: good approach but whats the time frame on the developing State academies, & what is the thinking behind that time frame, knee jerk reactions to Isaac Heeney (drafted 2014) & Callum Mills (2015 draft) .... their success drives the whingers, 2016/17 anyone (pardon my ignorance?)

NGAs :thumbsdown::thumbsdown: spot on, schmozzle SNAFU: have not had enough time to produce IMHO yet clubs are being given priority as window dressing for the virtue signallers. A totally worthless restriction on the draft pool.
As I posted a few posts above, I'd put a limit on the total points each club gets as discount, which could pretty much be repurposed this way.

Take the average discount NSW/QLD clubs have had for the past 5(?) years and that's what they get, all other clubs get the average used on FS picks....Phase out the difference by dropping that number by, say, 5% each year until they get to the same level other clubs average for FS picks.

As mentioned, points can carry over from year to year, so any club that.

All clubs, if they have a particularly bad run with FS picks and thus bank enough points to cross a certain threshold (obviously this would apply more to GC/GWS as they need sufficient players to breed and those kids to grow up), then they can be used on state academy players (no club alignment, all eligible clubs bid).

For everybody else (which should be well over 90% of players), it's the draft.
 
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