How to fix GWS?

[Rich01]

So yes, Bne was a rabble but there was a good culture for good management to build on. GWS have none. Their sole reason for existing is for the TV rights which is why they are a basket case that no one wants to play for. Their only hope for long term success is to somehow win over the hearts and minds of western Sydney.

The culture when the go home five event happened was horrible. The appointments from that changed turned the place around significantly. Youngsters stayed not just for the $$$.

 

[sydney_gws]

Maybe move to North Sydney, so they have a better demographic. They and swans share western Sydney then ( swans have south/west giants north/west part of sydney

 

[Cmarsh]

Local engagement is crucial and one thing that has not been mentioned in this thread is that covid closed down access to schools for over two years. Getting this up and running again will help with that consistent community involvement.

 

[Wheresbuddy]

Local engagement is crucial and one thing that has not been mentioned in this thread is that covid closed down access to schools for over two years. Getting this up and running again will help with that consistent community involvement.

I guess the question is whether GWS will ever win over the locals and give the team a proper region to play for? I just don't see AFL as a good cultural fit for the demographics of Western Sydney. Correct me if I'm wrong but do you see many Muslim, Asian and Polynesians playing and supporting AFL? They're the people that need to be won over.

 

[Cmarsh]

I guess the question is whether GWS will ever win over the locals and give the team a proper region to play for? I just don't see AFL as a good cultural fit for the demographics of Western Sydney. Correct me if I'm wrong but do you see many Muslim, Asian and Polynesians playing and supporting AFL? They're the people that need to be won over.

Western Sydney often gets stereotyped as only an ethnic and multicultural demographic, but there is a very significant Caucasian Australian population there as well that can be tapped into with consistent engagement. In fairness, even in Melbourne the proportion of Polynesian, Asian and Muslim footy supporters is pretty small.

 

[Suspense]

start by ditching the 'gee-double-yoo-ess'. Has always sounded like an obscure programming language or suburban accounting firm rather than a footy club.

 

[Wheresbuddy]

Western Sydney often gets stereotyped as only an ethnic and multicultural demographic, but there is a very significant Caucasian Australian population there as well that can be tapped into with consistent engagement. In fairness, even in Melbourne the proportion of Polynesian, Asian and Muslim footy supporters is pretty small.

Of course there are a good number of Caucasian Aussies in western Sydney. But majority are rusted on league supporters. Penrith, Parra and West's tigers all based in GWS catchment, along with Raiders in Canberra.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's a bloody tough market for GWS to crack. But until they do, I think they will struggle. Their lone GF appearance was just a false dawn.

 

[Orange Agent]

Given the start up concessions for GC were very similar the fact that many ex GWS are still in the system is a credit to recruiters and development staff. Where does ex GC players team compare? One thing I agree with is the amount of games in Canberra. If local supporters don't start attending games in the next year or 2, more games need to go to Canberra. If the area wants a team they need to support it.

 

[btdg]

On the Swans board yesterday Wheresbuddy posted a team of former GWS players who are now with other clubs

B Wilson Corr Frost
HB Williams Marchbank Tomlinson
C Shiel Steele Treloar
HF Smith Cameron Hoskin-Elliott
F Langdon Lobb Finlayson
Foll Phillips Adams Kennedy
Res Caldwell Hately Bonar Setterfield

and it got me thinking about how there is surely no other team in the competition at the moment that could be realistically beaten by a team of their former players. Add Hopper and Taranto to the above team and the 2023 GWS team would not have a chance.

It is clearly a bad thing that so many quality players from GWS have left that there is enough of them to form their own team and that team would beat the current GWS but I was wondering what could be done to fix this as surely it is in the AFL's best interest to fix this.

Right now one of a few things happen. GWS pick up a high draft pick player who leaves after a few years, or who GWS manage to convince to stay but only after paying them way over what they are actually worth. Guys like Kelly and Whitfield are on so much that they are de-stabilising the GWS cap. GWS can't convince first round draft pick players to stay unless they are paid way overs.

Obviously the AFL would not like this as GWS can't grow as a club if they are in a constant never ending rebuild due to players leaving, so with that in mind what can be done about it? What do you think GWS or the AFL (or both) should do to try and combat this?

Now I am going to offer a suggestion here that I know will likely not be hugely popular but I think the AFL need to give GWS back their original zones for the Acadmey. A number of years ago they got a few really good players in a row from the Riverina area, and Collingwood and a few others managed to lobby to get certain parts of the Riverina removed from GWS's zone. I think these areas need to be reinstated. GWS need to bring in players who are less likely to leave and if they are from NSW then it does mean they are probably more likely to stay. It is why clubs like Gold Coast and GWS when they are terrible lose players, and a lot of players but when Carlton and Melbourne were bad they did not lose that many players, it is because when a club is bad players want to go home more, but with Melbourne and Carlton their players were already home, while for GWS most of their players are not from NSW.

Also like David King said just today, and I can't believe I am agreeing with him but first round draft pick players need to be given longer initial contracts. I am not saying 4 years like King suggested but I do think a 3 year contract is more healthy and helpful for clubs like GWS than a 2 year contract.

What would you do to fix the situation at GWS where they are losing player after player every year?

2017-2018 team of former Carlton players at other clubs. All those players left between 2013 and 2016 (except Gibbs who we refused to trade, who left 2016).
b: Touhy, Henderson, Buckley
hb: Yarran, Laidler, ????
c: Robinson, Grigg, Lucas
hf: Menzel, Hampson, Holman
f: Garlett, Waite, Betts
Foll: Jacobs, Bell, Gibbs
Bench: ????, ????, ????, ????

So it does happen during periods of poor club management, and it absolutely sucks to be honest. Carlton's 'team' isn't as strong as GWS but also GWS started with a weird list that was always going to have to be 'pruned' - loaded with high draft picks (and they traded to get extra draft picks rather than players). At least some of GWS is just their list normalising, and Carlton's hurt just as much - i think it was a running joke on Bay 13 for about 6 straight years that ex carlton players kicked more goals for the year than Carlton's entire list combined.

i don't think the academy helps. What helps is good coaching, a positive playing environment, effective salary cap management, and ultimately repeat finals performances. All of which is easier said than done, but a Collingwood style salary cap cleanout, new coach, and actively recruiting good clubmen would go a long way. Clubs also need to understand what 'their' advantages are compared to other clubs and really selling those. Sydney play in the same city and have done this SO well over time, attracting big free agents and generally keeping the players they want to keep. Brisbane (post go-home-5) vs Gold Coast is another pretty good example IMO.

I'd also like to see 3 year initial contracts for draftees: I reckon the last few years there's been a sense of the draft as being a bit like going to college: it's a short trip to gold coast or sydney to party for a couple of years, then settle down into your real home, and that's an issue. This is partly a problem GWS created themselves by filling their initial list so heavily with draft picks rather than journeymen who could compete right away, and that's their issue to fix, too. Carlton, for better or worse, have stamped every high draft pick as 'the future of the club' and made them feel that way, and I don't know that has always been the case for GWS.

 

[99cents]

Aside from a few players that team you nominated is half arsed.

beat the swans last year in a final. Some players will always want to play for 'big' clubs. Swans took 25 years to get where they bare now. let;s talk in fifteen years

 

[momentbymoment]

Let’s be clear, the northern academies are supposed to work this way. Players are drafted, given a few years training and then traded to big Melbourne based clubs. Everything is working as it should.

 

[tigerfan1961]

That team you posted is surprisingly piss poor tbh. Apart from Cameron I can't see any other above average player there. Seems like they have butchered all their high draft picks

No surprise when you realise who their recruiting manager was at the time when they were set up and given the majority of high end picks.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Given the start up concessions for GC were very similar the fact that many ex GWS are still in the system is a credit to recruiters and development staff. Where does ex GC players team compare? One thing I agree with is the amount of games in Canberra. If local supporters don't start attending games in the next year or 2, more games need to go to Canberra. If the area wants a team they need to support it.

Quite the opposite, imo. The Giants needs to commit fully to western Sydney. And pick a particular part of that. Its too big an area for a team to properly service in an area where they need to build community involvement.
Given where they are, the corridor from Parramatta to Penrith seems to make sense. Move the Canberra games to any half-suitable 10k venue out Penrith way.
Yes, in the short term that means even lower average crowds. But it also means being in Western Sydney. Selling the odd game for established clubs isn't ideal, but for ones still seeking to gain their foothold in their major market it just slows any growth they might get.

Someone earlier mentioned covid getting in the way of school visits, etc. In the footy states, the league has almost outgrown this stuff. Where the league is largely ignored, and the wider game outside the main league largely invisible, its vital investment.

We're still probably 15-25 years away from whether GC and GWS are failures. Signs aren't great in either case right now, but the league can afford them and its supposed to be a non-profit organisation so if it grows the game in participation and following any losses are no big deal.


Onfield, there are cycles. Even the big clubs see drops when form drops away. For the smaller ones, the sparseness of the stands is more noticeable but probably not much different in proportion to supporter base. How clubs without profile retain players when the team is not performing on-field is a more difficult question. (And that isn't just an expansion thing, we have those issues at North right now as well.)

 

[Cmarsh]

Quite the opposite, imo. The Giants needs to commit fully to western Sydney. And pick a particular part of that. Its too big an area for a team to properly service in an area where they need to build community involvement.
Given where they are, the corridor from Parramatta to Penrith seems to make sense. Move the Canberra games to any half-suitable 10k venue out Penrith way.
Yes, in the short term that means even lower average crowds. But it also means being in Western Sydney. Selling the odd game for established clubs isn't ideal, but for ones still seeking to gain their foothold in their major market it just slows any growth they might get.

Someone earlier mentioned covid getting in the way of school visits, etc. In the footy states, the league has almost outgrown this stuff. Where the league is largely ignored, and the wider game outside the main league largely invisible, its vital investment.

We're still probably 15-25 years away from whether GC and GWS are failures. Signs aren't great in either case right now, but the league can afford them and its supposed to be a non-profit organisation so if it grows the game in participation and following any losses are no big deal.


Onfield, there are cycles. Even the big clubs see drops when form drops away. For the smaller ones, the sparseness of the stands is more noticeable but probably not much different in proportion to supporter base. How clubs without profile retain players when the team is not performing on-field is a more difficult question. (And that isn't just an expansion thing, we have those issues at North right now as well.)

Pretty sure there no suitable or half suitable 10k grounds near Penrith.

 

[czns]

Putrid fake orange club will never work. Shut it down and replace it with Tasmania. The 'give it time' mantra doesn't apply to western Sydney, it's a wasteland for everything that's not the NRL. Even the Wanderers A-League team that Sheedy was blaming for the Giants' failures early on is struggling to pull 5k apparently.

GC will never have fans either but will get all the Victorian expats to the games cheering against them when they play Richmond, Collingwood etc.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Pretty sure there no suitable or half suitable 10k grounds near Penrith.

Yeah, I think that's probably right which is a problem with getting more traction further out but within the prime catchment.

 

[Morbidly_Obese]

Abolish them and bring back Fitzroy

Fitzroy is playing in the semi finals what are you talking about?

 

[RUNVS]

Putrid fake orange club will never work. Shut it down and replace it with Tasmania. The 'give it time' mantra doesn't apply to western Sydney, it's a wasteland for everything that's not the NRL. Even the Wanderers A-League team that Sheedy was blaming for the Giants' failures early on is struggling to pull 5k apparently.

GC will never have fans either but will get all the Victorian expats to the games cheering against them when they play Richmond, Collingwood etc.

and the Tasmanian logo on your profile definitely proves you are unbiased here.

 

[Square Peg]

I don't understand why they don't just throw the gates open or even rent a crowd to all giants and suns home games. Not only to get their own crowd in but free for visiting team supporters too Send Richmond, Collingwood and Carlton to play away there every year. Do it for the next five years, try and build some momentum based on game day attendance so players for those two clubs feel like their games are more meaningful. You swipe a QR code at the gate and after five games attended you're sent free merch. I'm sure there are ways to get crowds.
But bugger off with draft/salary concessions that make the comp on the field more uneven.

 

[czns]

Drop the stupid name 'GWS' and just become the Giants and even consider moving to the SCG. The eastern suburbs of Sydney are a lot less hostile to the AFL and you also have the two main universities (USyd and UNSW) nearby with lots of students from AFL states who'll go to the games.

 

[footyfan1978]

GWS when they are terrible lose players, and a lot of players but when Carlton and Melbourne were bad they did not lose that many players, it is because when a club is bad players want to go home more, but with Melbourne and Carlton their players were already home, while for GWS most of their players are not from NSW.

This generalisation and over simplification is just that. Mental laziness on your part to fit some narrative as if it all fits in a nice neat box.
It simply does not...
You not looked into it at all as Carlton you so far off.

Patrick Cripps, Zac Fisher, Mitch McGovern and Jack Martin are from WA. So is Jack Caroll. They are a long long way from where they grew up.
Matt Kennedy, Setterfield and Zac Williams that came from GWS to Carlton did the opposite of your theory as they all from NSW and came to Carlton when we were totally crap and GWS a premiership contender.
Tom Williamson left us this season from Vic country town Ararat and Ciaran Byrne left to head back to Ireland about three years back.
Players come and go from everywhere.
Also Demons won a premiership and talk they may lose Luke Jackson back to WA.
Your theory is up shit creek.