How to fix the broken Pies...

PhiloBeddoe

Premium Gold
Mar 5, 2008
4,951
5,185
Ma's house.
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
None
Get Roos! Premiership Coach but hang on, Mark Wiiliams won one only a year before Roos so let’s get him. Oh wait, Leigh Mathews coached 3 from 01-03. Only a couple of years before Roos so yep, call him in.
Now MM has won a flag more recently than those three. Oh how do you choose just one?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Carringbush2010

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
5,099
2,891
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
The question what is the "broken"?

For mine we are imposting wannabes, for example the North game. This game was a glaring example of how far away we've come from what our key strengths of 2018 are and if anything North right now look exactly like we did last year - swarm, suffocate win ball and then burn the opp on transition.

That game you could see we wanted to slow the game down to ensure we wouldn't turn it over to the opp. Ok fine IF you're not spreading your link up too far which we did and then our player with the ball was looking for option 2, while all the time inviting pressure from the opp. Panic hospital handpass and team mate turns it over or gets pinged. All the while our link up receivers are in attack position too far away to get numbers back to defend, smooth easy I50 for North and they score.

Does anyone remember 2017? Of course you do, I remember the Ade game I went to - literally two halves of two different teams wearing the same jumper. The first half we finally saw what the "vision" of Bucks was and then in the 2nd we reverted back to what we did against north. Perplexing is an understatement, add some profanity thinking and this is the frustration we all as pie fans realise - like no other team.

LIST IS NOT OUR ISSUE! We went near zero list change from 17 to 18, so how? Well new blood in the coaching panel and new improved flexible Bucks saw a game style tweak away from a regular like we did against north to a team no one wanted to face because of it's suffocation and then the imminent speedy transition. Injuries all year and constant doom and gloom from everyone bar the FD and the club and they continue to beat form teams even with in game injuries.

So the way to fix it is to go back to what the strength is - system!
 

No SPIN

Club Legend
Jun 14, 2009
2,763
2,181
Vic
AFL Club
Collingwood
Varcoe
Thomas
Aish
Greenwood
Goldsack
Broomhead
Sidebottom
Pendles
Cox
Reid
Howe
Treloar

Buckley 50/50 to keep job

Clean out the football department in particular list Managment fitness condition and get rid of derick hind

Need to prepare for life after pendles and quite possibly Buckley

Eddie McGuire to step down too from President role in say 2021 or 2022

Next flag not with the current list as it is I’ll say 2022 more like it

2018 was more like 2019 is now and 2019 like 2018 how that ended up

Time to make a rebuild again

Malthouse would have got us another flag Buckley has had too long time only highlight premlim v richmond 2018 and that is it.

This year disaster but Collingwood has the lowest successful strike rate of any team for wins in the months of July and August go ok March April and May June starts the s**t July onwards is where they hit the skids

Collingwood if to miss finals membership will decrease and Eddie McGuire you have corrupted the club too much and have taken us for granted for far too long time to give it up.

Time to become a club not a company

Stop the corruption

Hi TTRRAAVVIISS
 

Tarkyn_24

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 23, 2006
29,915
25,580
AFL Club
Collingwood
1. Sidebottom up forward, Aish and/or WHE to wing. Quaynor takes Aish's small defender role.
2. Don't be afraid to swing Moore forward after half time if we are struggling to take a forward mark or kick a goal.
3. When Langdon is back, play Jeremy Howe as a 3rd marking tall. Michocek back to VFL.
4. More midfield rotations. Josh Thomas is capable of taking a centre bounce or two. Has Buckley completely forgotten he used to be an onballer?
5. If Cox needs a spell in VFL due to form, consider recalling Goldsack to play full back and Roughhead to play up forward and take the 2nd ruck role. I think this is probably something we should try anyway because Grundy needs a chop out. You can see how visibly tired he is in final quarters.
This. All of it but particularly number one. Tell Sidebottom to play the old Alan Didak role of delivering the ball into the forward line, or have him crumbing at the feet of Cox if Thomas is having a run through the middle.

Our midfield is too outside orientated and there’s not enough of a defensive edge there. Needs immediate attention.
 

Tarkyn_24

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 23, 2006
29,915
25,580
AFL Club
Collingwood
How many did he win with Melbourne where there was no COLA?
The cost of living in Sydney at the time generally justified the allowance in the early 2000’s, and without knowing the ins and outs of it was probably used more in line with its intention, rather than to attract big fish.

But please do tell me who you think Sydney managed to attract in 2005 that they wouldn’t have otherwise had on their list without COLA? That squad doesn’t have the spread of talent nor the absolute superstar that would probably have meant they wouldn’t have fit under a normal salary cap in Melbourne (as opposed to Sydney 2014 attracting Buddy or Brisbane 2001-4 with superstars on every line and a actual cost of living broadly consistent with Melbourne’s anyway).
 

jathanas

Moderator
Aug 17, 2011
2,973
5,077
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Man U
The cost of living in Sydney at the time generally justified the allowance in the early 2000’s, and without knowing the ins and outs of it was probably used more in line with its intention, rather than to attract big fish.

But please do tell me who you think Sydney managed to attract in 2005 that they wouldn’t have otherwise had on their list without COLA? That squad doesn’t have the spread of talent nor the absolute superstar that would probably have meant they wouldn’t have fit under a normal salary cap in Melbourne (as opposed to Sydney 2014 attracting Buddy or Brisbane 2001-4 with superstars on every line and a actual cost of living broadly consistent with Melbourne’s anyway).
Good question Tarks.

Sydney in 2005 didn't have a franchise player like Buddy on their list sucking a squizillion dollars but they still had Barry Hall and Willo; neither of those would have been a bargain.

Did COLA help pay for those 2? Can't tell you for sure mate but it also let them keep O'Loughlin, Goodes, Jolly, Kennely, Bolton, and O'Keefe without stretching the purse strings too much.

I will grant you that they didn't appear to misuse the COLA as they have more recently.
 

Tarkyn_24

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 23, 2006
29,915
25,580
AFL Club
Collingwood
Good question Tarks.

Sydney in 2005 didn't have a franchise player like Buddy on their list sucking a squizillion dollars but they still had Barry Hall and Willo; neither of those would have been a bargain.

Did COLA help pay for those 2? Can't tell you for sure mate but it also let them keep O'Loughlin, Goodes, Jolly, Kennely, Bolton, and O'Keefe without stretching the purse strings too much.

I will grant you that they didn't appear to misuse the COLA as they have more recently.
I just thought your post was a bit disingenuous to Roos’ achievements at Sydney. In terms of the question at hand, I don’t think either of us will ever be able to answer it - but they won that premiership with Darren Jolly having been acquired from Melbourne after a thus far underwhelming career, and the others you named are no more or less illustrious than the best six or eight names you could put together for other teams. In your arguments defence, Shane Crawford admitted the Swans approached him with a lucrative offer that he rejected - but from their trading and drafting in the period I can’t see a name that would’ve consumed a similar offer. Additionally, they had the injured Stuart Maxfield to pay.

All in all though, I don’t think it’s fair to question what Roos achieved with the Swans or how he achieved it. It was obvious from the get go in 2002 when the Swans went from basketcases under Eade playing out what was an argument for the worst game of all time against St Kilda at Telstra Dome to Roos’ immediately impressive 6-4 record. He then took that same cattle (minus retirees Paul Kelly, Tony Lockett and Andrew Dunkley) to within 3 points of Brisbane at 3 quarter time of a preliminary final.
 

Tarkyn_24

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 23, 2006
29,915
25,580
AFL Club
Collingwood
An aside, and happy for a mod to delete if not appropriate or on topic enough but this article provides a bit of an insight into the conditions teams were operating in around that period. Happened to find the link while reading up on Caracella and how we ended up picking a very good player in a pre-season draft:


Note: the one above relates to Essendon’s delisting of him in 2002, and consequentially mentions our acquisition of Woewodin in the last line.
 

jathanas

Moderator
Aug 17, 2011
2,973
5,077
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Man U
I just thought your post was a bit disingenuous to Roos’ achievements at Sydney. In terms of the question at hand, I don’t think either of us will ever be able to answer it - but they won that premiership with Darren Jolly having been acquired from Melbourne after a thus far underwhelming career, and the others you named are no more or less illustrious than the best six or eight names you could put together for other teams. In your arguments defence, Shane Crawford admitted the Swans approached him with a lucrative offer that he rejected - but from their trading and drafting in the period I can’t see a name that would’ve consumed a similar offer. Additionally, they had the injured Stuart Maxfield to pay.

All in all though, I don’t think it’s fair to question what Roos achieved with the Swans or how he achieved it. It was obvious from the get go in 2002 when the Swans went from basketcases under Eade playing out what was an argument for the worst game of all time against St Kilda at Telstra Dome to Roos’ immediately impressive 6-4 record. He then took that same cattle (minus retirees Paul Kelly, Tony Lockett and Andrew Dunkley) to within 3 points of Brisbane at 3 quarter time of a preliminary final.
I have no doubt that the COLA helped rather than hindered keep that list together but Roos did a great job at Sydney; he helped built a strong culture/leadership and got the most out of that group. I do remember that they were able to retain O'Keefe when he wanted to go to Carlton. Having more cap space than the opposition is an advantage, period.

He did not enjoy the same success at Melbourne. That should have been enough of a retort on my part when it was suggested that Roos as a coach would be the solution to our current problems, without mentioning COLA at all.
 

Tarkyn_24

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 23, 2006
29,915
25,580
AFL Club
Collingwood
I have no doubt that the COLA helped rather than hindered keep that list together but Roos did a great job at Sydney; he helped built a strong culture/leadership and got the most out of that group. I do remember that they were able to retain O'Keefe when he wanted to go to Carlton. Having more cap space than the opposition is an advantage, period.

He did not enjoy the same success at Melbourne. That should have been enough of a retort on my part when it was suggested that Roos as a coach would be the solution to our current problems, without mentioning COLA at all.
To be fair I went and watched that Melbourne list he inherited a few times as a neutral. They would’ve struggled to put Gold Coast away this week. His impact can’t be understated at either of the clubs he spent time at.

I’m pretty well convinced Melbourne would’ve performed better had he remained coach (ie. no succession plan in place). Even despite them making the preliminary final last year (which I attribute moreso to them meeting probably the worst top four qualifying side can remember in the semi final).

What I do agree with you on is that he is not the ideal coach for our squad at the moment. However, it remains to be seen how an effective defensive game plan would be implemented by our current squad. I still think we’d see dramatic improvement in a defensive sense.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

jathanas

Moderator
Aug 17, 2011
2,973
5,077
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Man U
To be fair I went and watched that Melbourne list he inherited a few times as a neutral. They would’ve struggled to put Gold Coast away this week. His impact can’t be understated at either of the clubs he spent time at.

I’m pretty well convinced Melbourne would’ve performed better had he remained coach (ie. no succession plan in place). Even despite them making the preliminary final last year (which I attribute moreso to them meeting probably the worst top four qualifying side can remember in the semi final).

What I do agree with you on is that he is not the ideal coach for our squad at the moment. However, it remains to be seen how an effective defensive game plan would be implemented by our current squad. I still think we’d see dramatic improvement.
Quite likely, but he took the Melbourne job without the same hunger for success/commitment that he had whilst at Sydney. He wanted to prioritize family and life balance after the Swans gig, and who can blame him. The succession plan was a condition of his acceptance of the job at the Dees.

The coaching caper is not a suitable long term gig for some, which is understandable.

Our side was successful in 2018 when they used attack as a form of defense; the question mark on that game plan was that we weren't always been able to sustain it for 4 quarters as it took so much out of the players. When ON, we looked unbeatable.

This year we seem to have regressed. Not sure if that is all down to a "tweaked" game plan, our injuries, or the players having lost some mojo.
 

Chrispiesssss

Premiership Player
Aug 31, 2014
3,647
4,502
AFL Club
Collingwood
I think Greenwood needs to play in the midfield. He tags the oppositions best midfielder and he’s hard at the ball. That’s exactly what we need.

I don’t want to throw the baby out with bathwater. However, I won’t be opposed to Moore playing forward when Howe returns. Roughead, Schaz & Howe can all play tall in the backline.

Moore has sticky hands. Something Cox will never have. Moore also helps with the pace of our forward line.

Anyone who plays in the Centersquare can’t be flat-footed. We need people running. I don’t care if we get exposed defensively, but standing there and being reactive is extremely frustrating.

Mayne needs to go back to his wing position.

Josh Thomas needs a month in the reserves.
 

jimmy35

Z Man
Sep 29, 2004
20,251
4,857
Merimbula
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Bengals
Work harder, we’re not catching anything on the spread but a cold. Our pressure on the side with the ball is ditto.
Even when we weren’t playing well I was confident that eventually sides would be worn down by the end of the game from our manic-ness and what they had to do all game to try and beat that and we’d have enough to get them late.
That’s gone.
 

Thatsmyname

Club Legend
Apr 16, 2019
1,446
1,267
AFL Club
Collingwood
BIG PROBLEMS at Collingwood.

Not insurmountable ones, but unless resolved immediately, season-destroying ones with seven matches remaining.

Coach Nathan Buckley knows it. He was prepared to bag his players after a win against the Bulldogs in round 14, and went as far as using the phrase "white flag" when his team lost in round 15 to North Melbourne.

But in an albeit closer, but similarly disappointing overall performance against Hawthorn on Friday night, he was prepared to talk his players up.

The beautiful, natural, organic buoyancy and positivity around everything and everyone at Collingwood which propelled the club to within a kick of a premiership of 2018 is gone by round 16 of 2019.

That doesn't mean the year is a write-off. It just means it is going to be a real slog from here.

Collingwood last year had the freedom of zero expectation. It is being suffocated in 2019 by expectation.

Little issues are always big issues at Collingwood. Being caught by police for using a phone while driving is a relatively small matter in most lives, but when it's Jordan De Goey's life, given his status as one of the game's genuine A-grade Magpies talents and with his police-involved driving history, it becomes a distraction the club doesn't need.

Not after Sam Murray's drug use, and Jaidyn Stephenson's punting. And Ben Reid's latest injury, and Mason Cox's inability to cover.

And as good clubs do, there will be a need for De Goey to be counselled, again, for his behaviour by Collingwood officials.

In Perth on Friday night, the 2018 premier West Coast awaits. There will be no bigger home-and-away season match this year.

 

Shpeshal Ed

I see you on televishaaaaan!
Day Off
Sep 17, 2007
23,696
21,156
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Man. U, Chicago Bulls, Ολυμπιακός
Been saying since almost the start of the year that Crisp and Maynard should be pushed up the field to play on the wing and in the middle repsectively.

Maynard's arguably best game for the club was splaying on ball tagging Oliver. Shut him down and got plenty of it himself. He's a strong body who goes in like a bull. Crisp gives us that run in the middle that we're so sorely missing.

Quaynor and Appleby can take their spot in the back. I think Appleby is back from injury now.

Bit harsh on Daicos, good lord. He's had 2 cracks at it during the lowest ebb of the club's season. Give him a chance. Callum Brown had ample opportunity despite doing near nothing while the club was performing a bit better.
 

Nuwanda

Team Captain
Nov 21, 2018
311
300
AFL Club
Collingwood
How about we beat the Eagles? The tone will change again. We’ll be premiership favourites.

Howe coming back will be a huge in for us. Adams may well be one of our most important that players. Hopefully he comes back in the team.

I’d still like to keep Brown in the team. He is definitely showing something and consistency will come. I haven’t been a big fan of Daicos Jnr but he looked like he can play. While Mayne works hard and has been good, I’d rather be and Sier make way for Howe and Adams (if he is a chance this week). Change the game to more pace and daring. After all, playing a daring brand of footy and not being afraid to make mistakes quickly cutting the ball through the centre is what got us to a premiership.

I still think it was when we stopped doing it in the second half which cost us the grand final.
 
Apr 19, 2018
34
45
AFL Club
Collingwood
Let me preface this by saying that they wont make any of these changes. For the most part Buckley will back in the players and the game plan for as long as he thinks it needs.....

But here is what they could do:
Forward line: Issues: Has not any cohesion, continuity, or form for about 7 weeks. Our 'final' kick to a target was a bad as I have seen it on Friday night, some class is needed. Talls need to compete more; people always say that Cox 'never gets out marked' but he cant fall back on that argument now. When the ball is on the ground the pressure is not as fierce as it has been either. I think our low I50 count is in part due to the lack of pressure and repeat entries. Thomas needs a break.
Solution:
- Callum Brown needs to play predominantly small forward; he tackles and harasses but is also clever.
- Elliott and Hoskin-Elliott; need to play the Stephenson/DeGoey full forward role as much as possible. Elliott was poor but will be better for the run. Hoskin-Elliott looks bereft of confidence but was most dangerous when he was deep on the weekend.
- Sidebottom to high half-forward; Doesn't seem to impact games as much as last year but i can see him playing a Robbie Grey type role distributing ball inside 50.
- Cox needs to stay home; seems to get lost up the ground.... Perhaps if he stays deep and keeps it simple he can find some form again?
Line-up:
FF: Elliott Cox Brown
HF: WHE Miocek Sidebottom
7th: Daicos

Backline: In my view its not really a problem.... If anything it has kept us in games when we have conceded territory and I50s from bad centre clearance work. The only thing I would say is we are lacking ball use and pace to rebound. Scharenberg, Howe and IQ will help that, but it may be more of mindset shift required. Take the game on rather than dumping long to the wing. We look so slow compared to last year because of this.
Line-up:
FB: Crisp Roughead Scharenberg
HB: Maynard Moore Quaynor
7th: Aish

Midfield: Issues: Clearance numbers around the ground are ok, but the actual clearances are generally in close and rushed (Treloar over the head handball or hurried snap) which don't tend to be very effective. Centre Clearance work is bad, which instantly puts our backline under pressure and concedes territory.
Teams seem to understand that if you negate Pendlebury and Grundy it doesn't matter how much ball Treloar of Phillips get, it wont be damaging.
Solution:
- Contested minded players are key. A lift from Sier, and the inclusion of Adams will help the balance.
- Dont know what sort of tank Degoey has, but I would be starting him in the middle, with Sidebottom rolling in to give him a chop out.
- Greenwood can tag key play makers and should be.
- If Grundy has aerial dominance, be prepared to get more proactive with positioning to better utilise it. Treloar and Sier will be better users if they are out in the open.
Line-up:
Mid: Grundy, Pendlebury Adams (if fit)
Treloar, Degoey, Phillips
7th and 8th: Sier, Greenwood (if fit)

If Adams and Greenwood come back in the side I dont have a spot for Thomas or Mayne.
These aren't huge changes, more tweaks than anything..... i think the key to the improvement will be from releasing the shackles and playing with more pace and dare. At the moment it looks like they don't want to be the one to make a mistake and they are tense with everything they do!!
 

TKiL

Club Legend
Jul 22, 2017
2,697
2,947
Eastern Suburbs, Melb
AFL Club
Collingwood
Work harder, we’re not catching anything on the spread but a cold. Our pressure on the side with the ball is ditto.
Even when we weren’t playing well I was confident that eventually sides would be worn down by the end of the game from our manic-ness and what they had to do all game to try and beat that and we’d have enough to get them late.
That’s gone.
Agree but where did it go and why did it go to wherever it's gone?
 

Kirby

This man is confused
Oct 10, 2007
13,617
18,605
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
I don't really agree with either the forward line or the back line being a problem. Our problems begin and end in the midfield for mine.

Yes, we could be better in forward retention and yes we could be better in rebound from the backs, but I think that those problems are also compounded by an under-performing midfield.

When you are at the games you notice that the ball spends most of the game in our backline, or at least in our back half of the field. I'm talking nearly whole quarters at times. We are getting smacked out of the centre bounces and then we can't clear the ball passed the half way line. Our midfield is just getting burnt on transition and a lot of that has to do with work rate and lack of dare. We are also too slow through the midfield as a whole. We absolutely need an injection of pace.

Our backline has been immense this year. To me our forwards still look dangerous when they get enough ball down there to feed on, we just don't get it in there enough and when we do it's not quick enough.

We just have to stop the ball living in our back line.
 

jathanas

Moderator
Aug 17, 2011
2,973
5,077
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Man U
I don't really agree with either the forward line or the back line being a problem. Our problems begin and end in the midfield for mine.

Yes, we could be better in forward retention and yes we could be better in rebound from the backs, but I think that those problems are also compounded by an under-performing midfield.

When you are at the games you notice that the ball spends most of the game in our backline, or at least in our back half of the field. I'm talking nearly whole quarters at times. We are getting smacked out of the centre bounces and then we can't clear the ball passed the half way line. Our midfield is just getting burnt on transition and a lot of that has to do with work rate and lack of dare. We are also too slow through the midfield as a whole. We absolutely need an injection of pace.

Our backline has been immense this year. To me our forwards still look dangerous when they get enough ball down there to feed on, we just don't get it in there enough and when we do it's not quick enough.

We just have to stop the ball living in our back line.
I agree mostly in that I view our problems as mostly midfield related but the forward line hasn't functioned perfectly in terms of execution. How many times do we get the ball inside 50 through hard work just for players to start playing hot potato with the footy? It seems at times that nobody wants to take a shot at goal (Stephenson, JDG excluded).

I agree that our backline is solid AF.
 

Sleuth1

Senior List
Jul 4, 2014
236
263
AFL Club
Collingwood
Time to go back to 2018 when the team jelled and Buckley lost him obsessive controlling ways and let the players play and use their creativity. It has been back to 2017 with the robot stuff, a negative Buckley trying to manage everything that moves. The joy of playing has been lost for a while now and it has shown, The old 'control freak' Buckley is back and he needs to banished. He goes back into default position. Maybe there is a machine he can hop into each each week to get him back to 2018. Getting coach of the year was a disaster and the old lunatic control button took over again. Even the field looks the same as 2017 with all the players pushed forward and having no-one in the forward line. Clarkson eats Buckley for breakfast, lunch and tea each time.
 

jimmy35

Z Man
Sep 29, 2004
20,251
4,857
Merimbula
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Bengals
Agree but where did it go and why did it go to wherever it's gone?

It’s work rate, Tiggers flag was built on it before they got a bit comfortable with themselves last year. It’s hard to keep that intensity up every week I’d imagine and even though it’s fallen away we had enough individual brilliance to get the job done mostly. Stepho, Adams and Howie all out takes away a brilliant forward, grunt in the middle and probably one of the best marking rebound defenders in the game and that’s staring to bite now. I reckon even with Stepho in last week he’d have made enough of a difference to get the W.
Not too be unfortunately but there’s still time to reboot before finals.
 

jimmy35

Z Man
Sep 29, 2004
20,251
4,857
Merimbula
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Bengals
Time to go back to 2018 when the team jelled and Buckley lost him obsessive controlling ways and let the players play and use their creativity. It has been back to 2017 with the robot stuff, a negative Buckley trying to manage everything that moves. The joy of playing has been lost for a while now and it has shown, The old 'control freak' Buckley is back and he needs to banished. He goes back into default position. Maybe there is a machine he can hop into each each week to get him back to 2018. Getting coach of the year was a disaster and the old lunatic control button took over again. Even the field looks the same as 2017 with all the players pushed forward and having no-one in the forward line. Clarkson eats Buckley for breakfast, lunch and tea each time.
Rubbish.
 
Top Bottom