How to improve our Player Development

[Passmore]

I think you are hinting that is what we have done. A master plan created on a whiteboard -then use the pawns available to fit it.

If so, I agree with you and it clearly hasn't worked for us. We regularly don't play to our strengths.

I couldn't count the number of times I have heard Scott say "we believe that we have (or a building) a game style that will hold up in finals". He seems to be fixated on a game style, regardless of the strengths on the list.

 

[Rooboy 96]

There are a few arguments happening here and most are true but some have some very valid reasons why, it is easy to develop youth when you don't think you are a true premiership threat something the Flogs did not think they were until about 4.40 on staurday, whereas we have felt it was time now and even though I don't agree I can understand why Brad played what he felt was his "premiership shot team" many in here thought it was a good idea to persist with Drew and Waite while we were winning, now that most believe our WOO has shut we should see greater resources directed towards development over the next few years.

It is a bit rough that some are complaining about us having a red hot go, which I think we did over the last 2 and a bit years, till round 12 this year.

I do agree with Passmore about playing to our strengths and building our game plan around our strengths.

 

[Mcarcherey]

GWS still had the top three picks in 2012, they just wasted two of them on Plowman and O'Rourke. They also had the top two picks in 2013, so that's the top five picks in consecutive years after having 11 of the first 14 in 2011.

I'm not criticising other club recruiting at all, more just pointing out they made the most out of the last few drafts right down to rookie picks. It just illustrates that while there are no short cuts, nailing 2-3 drafts in a row can fast track any list build.

If you include 2011 PSD (Roberts), 2014 (Cordy, McLean, Daniel), 2015 (Dunkley) and players drafted by other clubs (Boyd, Biggs, Hamling), then 17/22 that played on the weekend were drafted in the last five drafts, with Wallis, Jong, Redpath and Adams missing through injury. That's pretty crazy.

they did have picks in 2012 but not as many in 2010-11...in those years we had top five and top ten picks there were pushed out to basically late first rounders, then the following year dogs were in the same boat but pick up stinger at pick 5 then bont at pick 4 the next year.

but dogs have done insanely well with their rookies and very late draft picks i agree. just we can't be too critical of our own staff considering these players slipped under their radars too.

 

[Rooboy 96]

I couldn't count the number of times I have heard Scott say "we believe that we have (or a building) a game style that will hold up in finals". He seems to be fixated on a game style, regardless of the strengths on the list.

yes I agree, but you also don't want to be like Geelong of the 80s-90s were your game plan works to get you into finals and grand finals but does not win the big dance.

 

[Passmore]

There are a few arguments happening here and most are true but some have some very valid reasons why, it is easy to develop youth when you don't think you are a true premiership threat something the Flogs did not think they were until about 4.40 on staurday, whereas we have felt it was time now and even though I don't agree I can understand why Brad played what he felt was his "premiership shot team" many in here thought it was a good idea to persist with Drew and Waite while we were winning, now that most believe our WOO has shut we should see greater resources directed towards development over the next few years.

It is a bit rough that some are complaining about us having a red hot go, which I think we did over the last 2 and a bit years, till round 12 this year.

I do agree with Passmore about playing to our strengths and building our game plan around our strengths.

I don't have a problem with the fact that he had a crack at winning a flag. It's what it's all about after all. You don't want to die wondering. You fall short, so be it. And there were some enjoyable finals wins in 14 and 15.

But when you go from 9-0 to 12-10, it's pretty clear that the list needs some serious turn over and the way the game style is approached needs to be rethought. It needs to be jumped on before s**t festers.

So far, the clean out has started well enough. We need to follow through now.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I agree with those assertions.

In addition to the comments you make, I also believe that the Dogs have also created a simple but effective gameplan to work to their strengths, being such a mid heavy running side with very limited talls.

It masks their significant deficiencies better than how other teams (including us) go about it.

That is very true. Beveridge came to the club, saw what the strengths were in the playing list and built a plan around fast paced, contested play at the contest. It doesn’t really matter the structure when you have an Army Ant approach to football, as long as you have one or two guys up front that can compete in the air but also put in a shift on the ground given the cavalry will arrive momentarily. This approach shows a flexibility of thought, and this will be tested in Beveridge next year when it is his team who becomes the hunted. He will need to look at changing things around a bit over the course of the summer.

As for Brad, when we beat the Dogs we forced numbers to the contest so as to not give them the advantage, which meant they didn’t get good ball going forward. This showed that he is capable of mixing things up a bit but there is no doubt that structure is king. Now, I am all for that for the most part, a team with a really good structural set up will always do well (as long as players stay fit) but a specific structure can date very quickly. I am curious to see if Scott thinks we need to change things next year given the significant focus to numbers at the ball, or if he thinks that the three talls and the ‘hack it forward first then hold it in’ approach will hold up with better player availability.

 

[hotham]

I remember hearing one of heads talking about it earlier this year saying we had no plans for it and didn't see much value in it and our current arrangements were perfect... found those comments disappointing.

This is the problem and why our club is floundering.

 

[hotham]

Werribee are looking to start playing 1 or 2 games a season at Arden St, so I doubt we would see our own VFL team in the next 1-2 years. In my opinion, I think it should be a very, very high priority.

While our development ain't the best in the league it's far from the worst. To be fair to them the young blokes really haven't had a great consistent run at it yet. Durdin, EVW, Garner, Turner, Nielson, Hibberd etc. all injured at crucial stages. We do need to start developing some star players though to push us into the next stage of our run. Whether Brown, Loader & Dyer are the men I'm not sure, new faces couldn't hurt. Whether we make any coaching changes this year though is another thing and I doubt we will.

All the members are to be appeased by playing two token games at Arden St. Why dont the paid employees of the NMFC get of their clackers and get a stand alone VFL side and forget Utah.

 

[hotham]

Bloody hell. I didn't realise they were rookies - that's some excellent recruiting right there.

Using Neville Stbbard as a consultant and McCartney as a list manager.

 

[Zondor]

Look personally I'm all for our own VFL side but I think the question needs to be asked. How is the current affiliation with Werribee traveling? Is it the reason for the lack of player development? How is the affiliation perceived within the "69 Walls" of Hardon St? Does the Werribee side structure up, game plan wise, the same way as the NMFC? Do our guys that play at Werribee get a decent run at it or is it all about the Werribee win? Those who watch Werribee on a consistent basis may be best served to answer these questions. :stern look

 

[The Big H]

Weribee had our injury curse as well. Think I saw they played 60 odd players in the seniors and over 80 in the development league.

 

[MFV94]

How many afl listed players are we allowed to play in Werribee's seniors? Saw a few times throughout the year we had players playing in the Werribee 2's

 

[Rooboy 96]

I don't have a problem with the fact that he had a crack at winning a flag. It's what it's all about after all. You don't want to die wondering. You fall short, so be it. And there were some enjoyable finals wins in 14 and 15.

But when you go from 9-0 to 12-10, it's pretty clear that the list needs some serious turn over and the way the game style is approached needs to be rethought. It needs to be jumped on before s**t festers.

So far, the clean out has started well enough. We need to follow through now.

I don't agree that going from 9-0 to 12-10 means we have some serious turnovers to do, I think the biggest problem was depth and our inability to cover injuries, but that again comes from not playing the depth which is hard to do when going for a flag like we have been for the last 3 years.

The clean out is looking good and I do feel excited for what is coming next.

where do you think the clean out should go next?

 

[Rooboy 96]

This is the problem and why our club is floundering.

far too simplistic to be true.

 

[FastLife]

Our OWN VFL Team at Arden Street would go a long way to fixing the problem.

 

[Passmore]

I don't agree that going from 9-0 to 12-10 means we have some serious turnovers to do, I think the biggest problem was depth and our inability to cover injuries, but that again comes from not playing the depth which is hard to do when going for a flag like we have been for the last 3 years.

The clean out is looking good and I do feel excited for what is coming next.

where do you think the clean out should go next?

Reflecting on the season, I come back to the first Hawthorn game as pivotal for the group. We had injuries, but they were a waning team with their own injuries. We had a crack, but just couldn't get it done. In my eyes, looking back, that was when the whole thing went to s**t. That was the moment that the collective realised that we just weren't good enough and weren't going to be. And moreso than win/loss scenario after that we played like a beaten team.

As for the clean out, and I am assuming that Wells is leaving on top of the 4 "retiring", you've got Black, Hansen who you can try to off load, but mine would extend to the captain. To me, he's the elephant in the room. We've got a slow midfield that needs to be addressed. He's the oldest, he's not the same player since the achilles, but the issue is that he's contracted for another 2 years. Certainly on significant coin. I'm not even sure how it could be facilitated.

 

[giantroo]

How many afl listed players are we allowed to play in Werribee's seniors? Saw a few times throughout the year we had players playing in the Werribee 2's

No limit. At stages yes, because of injury concerns.

The only information I have found is this:

"Historically, it’s been six or seven North-listed blokes in the team - that might become double that, 12 to 14 in there. There’s going to be a bigger influence of the North guys," Lamont said.

However in the practice match vs Coburg, we had 17 in there:

The seniors side saw a total of 17 North Melbourne listed players running out onto the field, offering a new dynamic on the field. John Lamont praised the way the two groups are coming together and was pleased with the even contribution of players across the board.
http://www.werribeefc.com.au/news/match-reports/301-prac-match-v-coburg-match-report

Season Preview
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...n/news-story/489055f0ae17ca7b0fce2eb23b0d3fd4

Werribee has moved into a full alignment with North Melbourne and there will no cap on Kangaroos players in the senior line-up.

It will leave Lamont and his selection panel with some serious headaches, but the former North development coach wouldn’t have it any other way.

“We are setting ourselves for a really big year,” said Sodomaco, who has been reappointed as skipper for a second season.


“We obviously get those North guys. They fit in really well.

“We’ve managed to keep basically everyone that we wanted to keep. We’ve got a really, really strong contingent of players who have been here for one or two years and are really ready to take that step up.”

 

[Roadrunner]

This year we have had 13 former first round picks on our list. I think that was the most of any team however Cunners, Hansen and Wells were the three inside the top 5.

To put this into perspective the Dogs currently have a grand total of 8 first round picks on their list yet are now reigning premiers.

The difference between them and us is the consistent output they get not from their early picks but from the guys taken later in the draft or those traded in. This points clearly to recruitment and/or development not being up to current standards.

FYI the Swans had 7 firat round picks on their list this year.

If we have 8 first round picks, I don't think its matter. We still wouldn't win the finals, let alone the grandfinal. We need to play the in-form players, and do not pick players on reputation or names alone. We have been doing this for who knows.. for so many years now.
We need Plan B or C, not just PLAN A. We need new ideas.

 

[hotham]

far too simplistic to be true.

I don't know what the absolute truth is. Just my take on it.

 

[cardje]

It really is the question, is nailing talent or developing it where we have gone wrong. Have the kids we have taken been wrongly developed or just were void of much talent.

Let's compare our draft picks since 2010 and compare it to the Dogs.

Obvious they have had more top end picks in that time but given we have some blokes who were top picks to in the side such as Ziebell, Cunnington, Wells, Hansen.

In the Draft they got luck with F/S but I'm giving them a 13/27 quality kids and a further 4-5 who would play AFL in other teams. In the Rookie draft I'm giving them a 5/15 with 1 or 2 others who are playing well in there VFL side. PSD: 1/1 for them. Free Agency 2/3. And Trade 2/8 with 1 who could get a game elsewhere.

For us I give us 8/24 who would be best 22. For Rookie draft 1/14 if you want to include one of Turner and Mullet. PSD 0/0. Free Agency 3/4. Trade 0/5.

So they all up I'd give 24/54 and for us 12/47. There's your problem since 2010 we haven't been able to generate even half an AFL list while since 2010 they could easily play a best 22 side. Now obviously we haven't blooded the kids as we didn't need to but teams like swans and cats made prelims will playing kids.


North

Draft: Atley, Harper, Delaney, Mabon, Brad McKenzie, Tom Curran, Taylor Garner, Ben Jacobs, Mason Wood, Mitchell Wilkins, Daniel Currie, Taylor Hine, Luke McDonald, Trent Dumont, Ben Brown, Sam Durdin, Daniel Nielson, Ed Vickers-Willis, Ben McKay, Ryan Clarke, Mitchell Hibberd, Corey Wagner, Declan Mounford

Rookie Draft: Cam Pedersen, Aaron Mullet, Max Warren, Brad Mangan, Malcom Lynch, Sam Gibson, Gavin Urquhart, Tim McGennis, Joel Tippet, Kayne Turner, Braydon Preuss, Will Fordham, Max Warren, Farren Ray

Pre Season Draft:

Free Agency: Nick DalSanto, Robin Nahas, Shaun Higgins, Jarrad Waite

Trade: Cam Richardson, McKinley, Will Sierakowski, Jordan Gysberts, Jedd Andersen

Dogs

Draft: Mitch Wallis, Tom Liberatore, Jayden Schofield, Zephaniah Skinner, Clay Smith, Michael Talia, Daniel Pearce, Tory Dickson, Jake Stringer, Jackson Macrae, Nathan Hrovat, Lachie Hunter, Josh Prudden, Marcus Bontempelli, Matt Fuller, Mitch Honeychurch, Toby McLean, Lukas Webb, Declan Hamilton, Bailey Dale, Caleb Daniel, Zaine Cordy, Josh Dunkley, Kieran Collins, Marcus Adams, Bailey Williams

Rookie Draft: Luke Dalhaus, Jason Johannisen, Ed Barlow, Mitch Hahn, Lin Jong, Tom Campbell, Alex Greenwood, Jack Redpath, Mark Austin, Brett Goodes, Roarke Smith, Jordan Kelly, Bardley Lynch, Luke Goetz, Jed Adcock

Pre Season Draft: Fletcher Roberts

Free Agency: Nick Lower, Joel Hammling, Matthew Suckling

Trade: Vezpremi, Djerrkura, Sherman, Koby Stevens, Tom Young, Stew Crameri, Sam Darley, Shane Biggs

 

[Rooboy 96]

Reflecting on the season, I come back to the first Hawthorn game as pivotal for the group. We had injuries, but they were a waning team with their own injuries. We had a crack, but just couldn't get it done. In my eyes, looking back, that was when the whole thing went to s**t. That was the moment that the collective realised that we just weren't good enough and weren't going to be. And moreso than win/loss scenario after that we played like a beaten team.

I remember that game thinking Hawthorn were done, a couple of cheap umpire assisted wins from being out of the eight, yet many thought they were still the power of previous year glad that was not so for them, I really wanted us to rotate numbers through the team for the first 10 weeks, but we were winning and didn't do so and then when we needed our full squad they were either injured or not ready. I think the dropping Maj after the Essendon game sent a message that should never have been sent.

As for the clean out, and I am assuming that Wells is leaving on top of the 4 "retiring", you've got Black, Hansen who you can try to off load, but mine would extend to the captain. To me, he's the elephant in the room. We've got a slow midfield that needs to be addressed. He's the oldest, he's not the same player since the achilles, but the issue is that he's contracted for another 2 years. Certainly on significant coin. I'm not even sure how it could be facilitated.

I agree the 4 have had their time to do something, so we move on, and lose the depth on the rookie list.
Wells stays or goes I don't care as he will only give us 20 more games of brilliance, I do love watching him turn a game like the saints this year (end of first round).
Black I don't see a spot for him, and am unsure to trust those in here that say he doesn't want to try, but it looks like that (late third / early fourth rounder).
Hansen, I hope he retires as I am scared we will have another Adams on our hands, but if he wants to go on he should do it elsewhere (early second / early third rounder).
Tippett and BMac still un-contracted? neither here nor there but think BMac is worth a punt.

I want young kids (under 23) in the rookie spots not mature depth players now.

 

[Tas]

I don't see what difference there would be with Werribee or our a stand alone VFL team, other than not playing in Werribee...

I assume people are aware just how much influence we have on Werribee?

 

[Thewlis Dish]

I don't see what difference there would be with Werribee or our a stand alone VFL team, other than not playing in Werribee...

I assume people are aware just how much influence we have on Werribee?

Enough to have blokes sitting in the Werribee magoos.

 

[hotham]

I don't see what difference there would be with Werribee or our a stand alone VFL team, other than not playing in Werribee...

I assume people are aware just how much influence we have on Werribee?

I know that it is financially advantageous for Werribee to be aligned with NM. I doubt we have total influence.

 

[Tas]

I know that it is financially advantageous for Werribee to be aligned with NM. I doubt we have total influence.

Our ex-development coach is now coaching Werribee, our coaches and assistants can directly coach our listed players during games, we play the players in whatever position we want them to play, they play as much game time as we want them to, we can and have torpedoed Werribee's finals campaign by resting senior players and calling on almost all of our depth players. They corroborate with our coaches and adopt similar game plan. I am not sure what we would do with our team in terms of development that we can't do atm.