Vic How would you rate Daniel Andrews' performance as Victorian Premier? - Part 2

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Jascave

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this is Part 2.

Part 1 is here:

======

With Daniel Andrews now coming up to his first year as Premier of Victoria, how would you rate him and his government so far, and what does he needs to do in the run up to the 2018 Victorian State Election?


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hawkman

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What are the odds of Daniel Andrews facing a leadership challenge by November-early December if the Coronavirus crisis is not brought under control?


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Not going to happen. The most likely ones are all in his crisis cabinet. They would all be tainted by it

Even if it out of control all the way to the election in 2 years, the other side would still probably find a way to lose anyway
 

Kwality

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It does appear that Government were way to complacent and did not do their part when it comes to oversight and ongoing compliance.

It also appears that the security arrangement was a collaboration between labour hire and a costume shop.

For me this highlights again that a profit model is not always the best model. This is essentially the same issue as the entire banking royal commission - profits take precedence over compliance and the whole time the government is not doing their job in providing proper oversight.

It is not good enough by anyone.
In this case we have VicPol tasked to cover quarantine. Depending on who you believe it resulted in the Police saying no - it spiralled after that, ending up with a fiasco.
The role of money/funding/profit is certainly an issue, but the mismanagement is Mr Andrews problem, our problem.

Contracting something out does not transfer responsibility & that aspect will be covered by Ms Coate.
 

QuietB

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In this case we have VicPol tasked to cover quarantine. Depending on who you believe it resulted in the Police saying no - it spiralled after that, ending up with a fiasco.
The role of money/funding/profit is certainly an issue, but the mismanagement is Mr Andrews problem, our problem.

Contracting something out does not transfer responsibility & that aspect will be covered by Ms Coate.
Yes and no.

If you need a lawyer then you hire one and you expect professionalism and competence. Same with a doctor, a vet, an architect, an engineer, all of those professions are and should be responsible for their work and they cannot transfer responsibility back to the consumer.

Having said that the government should have known they were likely dealing with glorified labour hire and they should have identified the risks.

All round it is a clusterfu**. Poor effort by the hotel, shocking effort by the security and poor effort by government.

But ultimately (assuming the rumours are true) it is complete lunacy by the people who could not help themselves. And there will be zero consequences for that to them.
 

Navyblues09

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It is understandable the police said no - they have a fair bit on their plate already in a completely new environment plus their normal duties.

Police should not have to babysit returned travellers and quite frankly it is a complete waste of resources if they did.

Ultimately the problem is this was not that hard a job. It is a clear brief and individuals have failed in delivering that brief. It is a failure of private security companies who no doubt used some sort of labour hire arrangement to fill the positions.

The failure by government is that they did not identify this risk and they did not monitor it properly.

Private security should have been able to do this job.
Which is ironic given the workload now on them is far greater than the hotels would have required
 

Kwality

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Yes and no.

If you need a lawyer then you hire one and you expect professionalism and competence. Same with a doctor, a vet, an architect, an engineer, all of those professions are and should be responsible for their work and they cannot transfer responsibility back to the consumer.

Having said that the government should have known they were likely dealing with glorified labour hire and they should have identified the risks.

All round it is a clusterfu**. Poor effort by the hotel, shocking effort by the security and poor effort by government.

But ultimately (assuming the rumours are true) it is complete lunacy by the people who could not help themselves. And there will be zero consequences for that to them.
If you employ a lawyer who specialises in drink driving to represent you in a commercial dispute ..... If YOU retain someone who can not do the job it is your fault, not the incompetent YOU chose. No buts, your fault.

Poor effort by the hotel you say, you really are spreading blame, what about the car park operator?

Not sure of your understanding of security (labour hire?) is, its not quite your bouncer at a pub/night club/the footy. As I understand detention for Government, it is widely contracted out without a problem. That it failed dismally here, should not be accepted whatever the reason.
 

Jascave

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If Victoria get 190 new Coronavirus cases tomorrow, then this time next week it could be around 80, which could see Victoria eradicating Coronavirus in 4 weeks time.


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Ned_Flanders

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Yes and no.

If you need a lawyer then you hire one and you expect professionalism and competence. Same with a doctor, a vet, an architect, an engineer, all of those professions are and should be responsible for their work and they cannot transfer responsibility back to the consumer.

Having said that the government should have known they were likely dealing with glorified labour hire and they should have identified the risks.

All round it is a clusterfu**. Poor effort by the hotel, shocking effort by the security and poor effort by government.

But ultimately (assuming the rumours are true) it is complete lunacy by the people who could not help themselves. And there will be zero consequences for that to them.
MSS are not glorified labour hire

the key issue here is they outsourced the gig to a security firm who doesnt have the same skill set or experience as they do.

so, imo and ime there are three ways this was f’ed up:


1) MSS f’ed up by outsourcing to a firm outside the scope of the agreement they have with the govt. I dont think this is likely, unless there was confusion about the classification/categorization of the job.

2) every agreement above $XXX must follow procurement rules, and it was acknowledged mandatory tendering didnt happen this time because of that. thats fine, but problems have have occured:

a) they bolted it onto an existing agreement. this may have issues if the services covered by it were very diverse, and this diversity created a misunderstanding between mss and dhhs about the rules of engagement (ie the agreement covered everything from Thomas Embling to hospital parking inspectors, thus allowing for great diversity in skill set, training, and qualification pre-requisites)

b) dhhs used a provider from another dept (ie dept of justice), but they failed to ask, or justice failed to tell them the mandates of how that work was supplied

3) the dhhs used either new or existing agreements, but agreed to low provisions because they did not anticipate the issues likely to be faced (probably due to the decision makers looking at it from a infection management perspective and not a security one - and didnt anticipate guards rooting people, people doing kfc runs, etc)


I honestly have no idea where this went pear shaped, so this is 100% speculation. I dont think this would be a cost one - this whole program has a blank cheque, so im ruling out lowballing (by either dhhs or mss). I suspect therefore its bad advice. I reckon this program was primarily run by the health peeps, and they relied on advice on the security requirements either from others in the dept, another dept, or mss themselves. This stuff would have been picked up and reviewed prior to tender, but with no tender, the review would have been done at light speed.
 

Kwality

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MSS are not glorified labour hire

the key issue here is they outsourced the gig to a security firm who doesnt have the same skill set or experience as they do.

so, imo and ime there are three ways this was f’ed up:


1) MSS f’ed up by outsourcing to a firm outside the scope of the agreement they have with the govt. I dont think this is likely, unless there was confusion about the classification/categorization of the job.

2) every agreement above $XXX must follow procurement rules, and it was acknowledged mandatory tendering didnt happen this time because of that. thats fine, but problems have have occured:

a) they bolted it onto an existing agreement. this may have issues if the services covered by it were very diverse, and this diversity created a misunderstanding between mss and dhhs about the rules of engagement (ie the agreement covered everything from Thomas Embling to hospital parking inspectors, thus allowing for great diversity in skill set, training, and qualification pre-requisites)

b) dhhs used a provider from another dept (ie dept of justice), but they failed to ask, or justice failed to tell them the mandates of how that work was supplied

3) the dhhs used either new or existing agreements, but agreed to low provisions because they did not anticipate the issues likely to be faced (probably due to the decision makers looking at it from a infection management perspective and not a security one - and didnt anticipate guards rooting people, people doing kfc runs, etc)


I honestly have no idea where this went pear shaped, so this is 100% speculation. I dont think this would be a cost one - this whole program has a blank cheque, so im ruling out lowballing (by either dhhs or mss). I suspect therefore its bad advice. I reckon this program was primarily run by the health peeps, and they relied on advice on the security requirements either from others in the dept, another dept, or mss themselves. This stuff would have been picked up and reviewed prior to tender, but with no tender, the review would have been done at light speed.
:thumbsu:

So the Deputy Secretary has been moved sideways:
 

Ned_Flanders

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:thumbsu:

So the Deputy Secretary has been moved sideways:
Interesting quote about her department not being responsible for hiring the guards. It could be weasel words (loopholing around the subcontractor issue), or may indicate they had they did leverage off of another departments contracts
 

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Kwality

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Interesting quote about her department not being responsible for hiring the guards. It could be weasel words (loopholing around the subcontractor issue), or may indicate they had they did leverage off of another departments contracts
My understanding is the Police said no & it ended up on the Deputy Secs plate so I can see how it could happen, find a way to get it to happen., i.e 'leverage off of another departments contracts'.
 

Ned_Flanders

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But the guys who ended up doing the job may well be glorified labour hire given the sub-contract arrangements.

No one had this workforce sitting around and fully trained ready to go presumably, yet they came from somewhere.
this kind of work can see individuals working at rotation of high risk roles they have been trained for. by its nature its flexible
 

Sinjin Smith

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1) MSS f’ed up by outsourcing to a firm outside the scope of the agreement they have with the govt. I dont think this is likely, unless there was confusion about the classification/categorization of the job.
This is usually a massive cause of security breaches, the big 4 service firms, network and infrastructure operate firms commonly do this which results in huge security issues. In saying that whoever signed off on the service, would have signed off on outsourcing/3rd party agreements. They are still accountable, in this case it is the Vic Gov.
 

Ned_Flanders

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This is usually a massive cause of security breaches, the big 4 service firms, network and infrastructure operate firms commonly do this which results in huge security issues. In saying that whoever signed off on the service, would have signed off on outsourcing/3rd party agreements. They are still accountable, in this case it is the Vic Gov.
"vic gov" isnt one entity however

was it dhhs, justice, premiers office, someone else?

as dumb as it is, it wouldnt surprise me if justice farmed out mss for this to dhhs, mss has provisions for 3 party contracting for low risk jobs, they considered this low risk, and noone bothered to let dhhs know this was a thing

esp if vicpol said they wanted nothing to do with it
 

HairyO

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And it was NSW in competence with the Ruby Princess that got every state first. People in glass house and all that :rolleyes:

I do not like what NSW are doing. If this is all from Vic's stuff up then we need to put the Genie in the bottle with whatever it takes and then go again.

The alternative is closed state borders for a very long time.
That is just complete garbage.

There were plenty of cases already here before the Ruby Princess, and plenty after that were unrelated.

Plus it was 4 months ago and every state and territory *other than* Victoria learned from the mistakes made.

Why is Victoria the only state or territory that didnt learn?

Why is Victoria still the only state or territory that didnt learn?

Why is it only Victorians who continue to harp on about the Ruby Princess while glossing over the fu** ups of their own government?

Is it because you want to avoid the current issue in Victoria which was caused in part because Muslims ignored health warnings and took part in Ramadan events?

Do you feel you have to raise old news to avoid having to criticise a particular religion which always gets a free pass with the woke ?
 

Demontim275

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That is just complete garbage.

There were plenty of cases already here before the Ruby Princess, and plenty after that were unrelated.

Plus it was 4 months ago and every state and territory *other than* Victoria learned from the mistakes made.

Why is Victoria the only state or territory that didnt learn?

Why is Victoria still the only state or territory that didnt learn?

Why is it only Victorians who continue to harp on about the Ruby Princess while glossing over the fu** ups of their own government?

Is it because you want to avoid the current issue in Victoria which was caused in part because Muslims ignored health warnings and took part in Ramadan events?

Do you feel you have to raise old news to avoid having to criticise a particular religion which always gets a free pass with the woke ?
Weird that you say muslims are only a part cause, but they’re your focus

what part of the test asks your religion?

both governments f’ed up. You know this isn’t the footy yeah? There’s no points being given out for who fu**s up less. It doesn’t give you random bragging rights?
 

Sinjin Smith

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"vic gov" isnt one entity however

was it dhhs, justice, premiers office, someone else?

as dumb as it is, it wouldnt surprise me if justice farmed out mss for this to dhhs, mss has provisions for 3 party contracting for low risk jobs, they considered this low risk, and noone bothered to let dhhs know this was a thing

esp if vicpol said they wanted nothing to do with it
I am really struggling to agree with that. If MSS stated within their proposal that this was a low risk job which entitled them to outsource to another firm, which any Vic Gov department signed off on............then yeah, sh*t hits the fan with those accountable parties, Jenny, Lisa and Dan. The underlings will cop the heat but Gov heads will roll.

DHHS knew this was more than a thing.
 

HairyO

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Weird that you say muslims are only a part cause, but they’re your focus

what part of the test asks your religion?

both governments f’ed up. You know this isn’t the footy yeah? There’s no points being given out for who fu**s up less. It doesn’t give you random bragging rights?
The hotels have already been covered relentlessly.

There has been little talk of a single school having 150 cases.

And yes, one govt f’ed up early. Every other govt paid attention and was far more careful. Including the one which f’ed up.

Except Victoria.

And there you are.
 

Demontim275

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The hotels have already been covered relentlessly.

There has been little talk of a single school having 150 cases.

And yes, one govt f’ed up early. Every other govt paid attention and was far more careful. Including the one which f’ed up.

Except Victoria.

And there you are.
And yet it’s pretty much the biggest fu** up.
So was it the school that spread the cases or the family gatherings?

are all the tower cases linked to it?

you might be jumping the gun on nsw...

what kind of weirdo gets a hard on over how their state government handles an issue? Who actually brags about that?
 

Ned_Flanders

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I am really struggling to agree with that. If MSS stated within their proposal that this was a low risk job which entitled them to outsource to another firm, which any Vic Gov department signed off on............then yeah, sh*t hits the fan with those accountable parties, Jenny, Lisa and Dan. The underlings will cop the heat but Gov heads will roll.

DHHS knew this was more than a thing.
they knew it was a thing, but a health thing. remember what dhhs do day to day, its not security and enforcement (the nearest they come is in more the human services areas, now taken over by the ndis)

similar happened with pink batts and dept of environment. they understood the programs needs from an installation and technical perspective, but they have never had to handle the scale of managing compliance and risk with so many suppliers (and their systems woefully managed this because it wasnt a key focus for them)

and with off shore detention. no shock you put the job in the hands of people who run prisons, they treat the detainees as prisoners (and the eventual health and mental health consequences happen)

when your tool is a hammer, every problem you see is a nail. its a common problem in govt
 

randyzany

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That's probably conflating two different things. There does seem to be a Muslim factor in the community transmission here and overseas.

Indians here tend to be mostly Hindus and some Sikhs. Many of the hotel security guards were probably of Indian origin. There has been an outbreak linked to guards at the Stamford Plaza but I would put it down to stupidity not culture.
It's not uncommon for Muslims to prioritize their religion above secular laws and Ramadan/Eid celebrations would've been one of those occasions hence the 'family clusters' which is code for groups of Muslims (family, friends, etc..) getting together and spreading the virus all over the North and West.
 

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