Opinion Howard and Frampton - discuss

[FallingLiefs]

For mine Frampton should be displacing Ryder. Howard has him covered up the ground by so much it not funny. while we are playing hinkleyball the full forward crashing packs is basically required. that's where dixon fits in but Frampton fits it better currently and fits it better long term than Ryder.

If Lycett could ruck 95% of game time, i'd drop Ryder but it's marginal and gut feel says i don't see much of future for Billy at AFL level but we should be giving him a go to see.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

I'm starting to think you didn't watch last week's game where Frampton worked himself up the wing and was regularly double teamed.

He dropped some marks he should have taken but your criticisms around not working hard enough are bogus and reeks of an agenda to justify your mate's selection policy. Very predictable.

Agreed.

I'd love to see the heat map comparison. They'd be very similar IMO.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Janus]

**** me Janus are you now trying to say that using your speed to work high and take an uncontested mark counts as 'busting a pack'?

Perhaps not 'busting', but definitely dispersing, which is the whole point isn't it?

 

[Magus]

Neither is playing him in an important game for the club to win.

I'm not saying Frampton is rubbish. I'm saying that he needs to learn what is required of an AFL forward.

Howard got dropped after 2 games in 2016 too, remember? Didn't seem to affect his development.

Four seasons ago.

All anyone is saying is that he deserves a go. You're arguing that he needs to learn, well no shit. How's he gonna do that?

 

[Magus]

Honestly I can't believe we're comparing the game of a guy doubled teamed in Launceston in wind and rain with 2 games to his name vs. a guy playing in perfect conditions, lined up against a team that were shitting liquids 24 hours beforehand.

Hey Billy, be better mate. ****in hell.

 

[Lawnchair Larry]

We just do not know what Frampton actually is. It's a problem that has arisen due to Hinkley's intransigence in assessing a future beyond his own tenure.
There appears to be something there with Frampton, which deserves at least a 10-15 game assessment.
I believe we tend to discard players a little too quickly. I will be interested in seeing how Snelling goes at Essendon after 1 reasonable game for us, as a good example. He did not fit our requirements, but to me was a logical competitor to Sam Gray.

 

[Adz2332]

howard led up forward, lead to the wing. frampton in the goal square. simple

A few times yesterday howard took a few ripping marks on the wing only to transfer it quickly to no one or no other tall...

Howard took great marks for sure, but never got the same treatment that marshall and frampton have had over this season!

 

[edgie]

Frampton has attitude and I currently feel we lack any talks with attitude. He could be the big RoZee/Butters and for that reason alone we need to develop him in the 22.


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[Duckimus Prime]

Most of the day Dougals opponent was Nathan Brown lol

I thought Brown spent more time on Lycett and Ryder than Dougal.

Especially considering Dougal spent so much time also moving up the field. So his opponents were more often Coffield and Joyce.

Which is a vastly different prospect to dealing with Frawley and Sicily double teaming.
Oh and Hawthorn were actually putting pressure on the midfielders delivering to Frampton, unlike St Kilda.

 

[Janus]

Four seasons ago.

All anyone is saying is that he deserves a go. You're arguing that he needs to learn, well no ****. How's he gonna do that?

Frampton got a go. He played well in the Gold Coast game, which is why he got another game against Hawthorn.

Against Hawthorn, instead of doing what he did against Gold Coast...which involved leading up the ground to help the ball transition out of defence in the first half and then presenting a contested marking target when we managed to lock the ball in our forward line...he decided he was going to stay anchored in the forward line and not push up the ground when Hawthorn locked the ball inside our defensive 50. He played better in the second half, but by that stage the damage was already done.

I want to know why he threw away what he did against Gold Coast, especially since the message at half time for that game was 'Keep at it.' Which means he was playing how the coaches wanted him to play. I don't expect him to dominate, just like I don't expect Marshall to dominate. What I expect from them is for them to be positive additions to the team performance.

He wants to play again? Do what he did the first game, and don't force it.

 

[edgie]

Perhaps not 'busting', but definitely dispersing, which is the whole point isn't it?

Yeah but that's some sort of POV, saying someone is good at busting packs because their other attributes mean they don't need to.

Howard: What are you trying to tell me? That I can bust packs?
Janus: No, Dougal. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

It's idealistic, in a game of football packs will form and it's handy to have more than one player than can bust em open and either clunk a pack mark and prevent the other team from it.

 

[Scholz Supremacy]

Howard has so much x-factor as a forward.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

It's idealistic, in a game of football packs will form and it's handy to have more than one player than can bust em open and either clunk a pack mark and prevent the other team from it.

Busting packs creates crumbs as well.. Bill makes plenty of crumbs

 

[PowerBaz]

Surely there is room for Howard & Frampton to co-exist? (Post Dixon) isn’t that where should be heading, along with Marshall?

 

[Janus]

Yeah but that's some sort of POV, saying someone is good at busting packs because their other attributes mean they don't need to.

Howard: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Janus: No, Dougal. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

It's idealistic, in a game of football packs will form and it's handy to have more than one player than can bust em open and either clunk a pack mark and prevent the other team from it.

Howard can bust packs too though.

My point is that Frampton should be doing what Howard was doing - there's no reason why he can't. It doesn't work if only one player is getting up the ground. The whole idea is to exploit the fact that there aren't enough defenders to go around - if Frampton is staying deep all the the time, the defenders will know to leave the double team on him and just send single coverage with Howard up the ground. But if Frampton switches it up and gets up the ground as well...suddenly the defenders are in two minds as to who is playing on who: do they stay with Howard and maintain the double team? Who's going with Frampton up the ground?

I'd rather two players who play like Howard did against St Kilda. And Frampton showed me against Gold Coast that he can play like that.

More like this:

Janus: The defenders have good position right here. Alright, freeze frame. Moment of choice: Frampton is defensive and caught behind two opponents, but he has chance to lead them away from the contest right here. Better to act as the decoy, and save the forward 50 entry, than push a bad position. Now, he stays in that contest another three seconds, the defender in front is going to take an easy intercept mark or he's going to give away a free kick. But if he takes a hard right, and leads away from the ball...he can extend an inside 50 entry.

He made a bad choice.

 

[El_Scorcho]

A 3 game player made a bad choice and should be more like a 40 game player.

News at 11

 

[Powerage]

In all seriousness, we weren't out our best either, and we had to make changes which included dropping a key forward and replacing him with a key defender who actually bothered to push up the ground (which Frampton didn't bother with), and putting a half back into a mid position to replace a star midfielder.

But let's forget the game for a minute, because it's irrelevant. I want people to talk about Howard's performance.

People had a cry about Frampton being dropped, but he was poor against Hawthorn. If Howard had been played in that position, we probably would have won the game against the Hawks because he actually knows how to compete in marking contests and gets to where the ball is rather than where he wants it to be.

Dougs showed Billy what is required to be an AFL key forward. You're not going to get it lace out all the time. Some of the marks he took were under immense pressure, up the ground and would have been great marks against any opponent. Frampton should have been taking notes as to how he's supposed to play the role.

Did Howard need a second tall to help him play better? Nope. Most of the time he was the only tall in the contest for us, and he still managed to either mark it or bring it to ground for our smalls.

Did Howard give up on balls the way that Marshall and Frampton do? Nope. There was no 'this isn't a perfect kick so I'm going to give away a free kick or put in a half-arsed attempt at getting to the ball'. He was getting to the ball as if his life depended on it. Which is how an AFL key forward operates.

Was Howard mobile? Yep. He was moving up and down the ground all the time.

Was Howard always active? Yep. If he didn't mark it, he was halving the contest and taking players around him out of it.

That's what I want to see from Marshall and Frampton. They don't have to play the same way, because they aren't those kinds of players, but don't make excuses for them when they play poorly.

Now...let me imagine for a moment a Charlie Dixon and Todd Marshall forward line where Marshall is playing like Howard did and actually clunking marks and bringing others into the game, and Dougal Howard is doing what he did today, but in defence (which was worse off for not having him in it)...

We are talking about a 3 gamer he has plenty to learn I wanted more games plugged into him for that very reason, Dixon coming back from a serious injury may not set the world on fire straight away understandably I think it's shortsighted dropping him.

Yeah I agree with JimmyBeerCans. I think Janus and co are taking too much Marshall's one good game up forward and comparing it to Frampton's one bad game.

Let's not forget that Frampton played well in poor conditions while Howard played well in ideal conditions for a start. Gold Coast's defence were at least competitive. St Kilda's was dreadful and so (surrprise!) we kicked our highest score since god knows when (2017?). Howard already holds the record for the most spoils in a single match, and the most one percenters. To say that Frampton doesn't do as much around the ground as Howard is, to be fair, a little bit like saying that Schultz is not as good one on one as Wayne Carey (ok that might be stretching the analogy, but still you are setting the bar very high for Frampton).

The criticisms you level at Frampton would be levelled at a lot of KPF's who have only played a handful of games who then went on the be good, even great. They could also be levelled at experienced KPF's like Ryder at the moment!!! In most cases, players who have played substantially more AFL games at the beginning of their career play harder and smarter than those who have played less games. Howard, though playing in defence, has played substantially more games than Frampton. The AFL is like the NBA. Unless you are Michael Jordan, EVEN if you are Michael Jordan, playing at the elite level is going require an adjustment period. I think Frampton did enough against Gold Coast to earn at least a couple of more AFL games at least otherwise he simply will not develop as quickly.

This is not to say that you don't have some valid points. Frampton will never have Howard's athleticism. If he doesn't work as hard around the ground that can be rectified. Frampton is an excellent kick, better than Howard. It seems clear to me that Frampton would have to work harder to be an AFL standard key forward than Howard.

 

[Us against the rest]

Yeah I think you are taking too much Marshall's one good game up forward and counterpointing it to Frampton's one bad game.

Let's not forget that Frampton played well in poor conditions while Howard played well in ideal conditions for a start. Gold Coast's defence were at least competitive. St Kilda's was dreadful and so (surrprise!) we kicked our highest score since god knows when (2017?). Howard already holds the record for the most spoils in a single match, and the most one percenters. To say that Frampton doesn't do as much around the ground as Howard is, to be fair, a little bit like saying that Schultz is not as good one on one as Wayne Carey (ok that might be stretching the analogy, but still you are setting the bar very high for Frampton).

The criticisms you level at Frampton would be levelled at a lot of KPF's who have only played a handful of games who then went on the be good, even great. They could also be levelled at experienced KPF's like Ryder at the moment!!! In most cases, players who have played substantially more AFL games at the beginning of their career play harder and smarter than those who have played less games. Howard, though playing in defence, has played substantially more games than Frampton. The AFL is like the NBA. Unless you are Michael Jordan, EVEN if you are Michael Jordan, playing at the elite level is going require an adjustment period. I think Frampton did enough against Gold Coast to earn at least a couple of more AFL games at least otherwise he simply will not develop as quickly.

This is not to say that you don't have some valid points. Frampton will never have Howard's athleticism. If he doesn't work as hard around the ground that can be rectified. Frampton is an excellent kick, better than Howard. It seems clear to me that Frampton would have to work harder to be an AFL standard key forward than Howard.

JimmyBearCans is actually defending Frampton and against him being dropped, not Marshall.

 

[PowerBaz]

Howard and Frampton - discuss...... (debate).....

 

[shewho]

Howard Frampton discuss- in two words...

Porshe Hyundai

 

[Powerage]

JimmyBearCans is actually defending Frampton and against him being dropped, not Marshall.

Shit I meant Howard, not Marshall. Corrected.

And I am agreeing with JimmyBeerCans and responding to Janus. Bugger.

 

[Amarula]

I like Howard, but his task was so much easier than Frampton's. Saints had 4 or 5 of their first-choice defenders out, so they could not really set a zone defence. So Howard beats an inferior opponent one-on-one. Big deal.

Frampton on the other hand was against one of the best one-on-one defenders going around, and regularly makes mincemeat of the best full forwards (if he's fully fit). A young forward in his third game was never going to be a match for Frawley. Hawks have an experienced well-organised zone defence system, against which the bomb-it-to-the-hot-spot strategy was never going to work.

Hawks also know that with our predictable ball movement into f50, there's only one place the incoming ball is going, especially if they can apply pressure to the ball carrier. They didn't have to worry about us aiming for, let alone hitting, any other targets inside f50. The depleted Saints could not apply pressure to the ball carrier, so our f50 entries were better for all our forwards than they were against Hawthorn.

To fully prefer Howard, we need to see how he goes in the far more difficult conditions that Frampton had to contend with against Hawthorn.

And this is still taking us away from our far greater problem, which is the lousiness of our f50 entries under pressure against a well-organised defence. It doesn't matter who the target KPF is - we'll remain a middle-of-the-table side unless we fix this.

 

[robbo1981]

Framtons treatment baffles me ffs give him a fair go shouldn't of been droped he could of got a bag on the weekend with our improved movement.

 

[Jimmy Unchained]

Howard has played 39 career games to Frampton's 3.

Howard is developing into a terrific swingman footballer who has unique athletic ability with his speed for his size, and is learning to position himself really well. Experience is a big part of that.

He wasn't giving us the assured, 9 mark dominant forward performances in his first handful of games, which were also played as a forward.

I know Frampton is older than Howard was when he debuted but I've been banging on for a decade on this board about getting games into young talls, KPFs especially. It's vitally important and there are very few if any sub 20 game KPFs dominating out there like Howard did yesterday.

You can't avoid it. You can't circumvent it (except by trading already developed KPFs in). Talls need experience at AFL level to learn how to play at AFL level.

Just to add to this point, now that we're a little bit ahead of it, the actual cost of not developing a KPF and having to trade in Dixon is now apparent. This is super revisionist but given the praise we have all handed our draft managers (as far as drafting is concerned) it's only fair to point out where we have gone wrong (from a list management perspective).

I'm not going to go into depth because with all trades it is much more complex than trading A for B.

By trading in Dixon we gave up our 2015 Pick 10 (and a 2016 2nd with 2015 Pick 49 coming back).

Players Available at 2015 Pick 10:
Charlie Curnow (Slid further than projections after drink driving incident)
Daniel Rioli
Jade Gresham
Tom Doedee (Probably not on our Radar)

Academy Players we could have bid on
Matthew Kennedy
Eric Hipwood
Harrison Himmelberg

It's also noteworthy that in this magical universe where we can develop a KPF, the value of a Charlie Curnow or Ben McKay (or even a sniff at a Hipwood) is automatically greater at Port.

We're currently giving some drafted KPF's some games, so maybe it will stop the cycle in 5-10 years.

 

[PJ Power]

Honestly I can't believe we're comparing the game of a guy doubled teamed in Launceston in wind and rain with 2 games to his name vs. a guy playing in perfect conditions, lined up against a team that were shitting liquids 24 hours beforehand.

Hey Billy, be better mate. ****in hell.

Can I like this post several hundred times? The only valid observations when comparing Frampton against Hawthorn (when he did in fact present and meet the ball quite well) with Howard against the Saints.

I would have loved to see Frampton and Howard work together up forward against both the Hawks and Saints.