Unsolved Hunt for Mr Cruel

[Earls Smother]

I don't know what to think of this case.

It was strongly suggested in the TV show about the case on Monday night that there was more than one offender committing these crimes rather than one guy who was the much-feared 'Mr. Cruel', but it seems even less plausible that a number of men could have committed similar crimes around Melbourne at the same time, and none were ever caught. Sure there might be copycats, but they are more likely to mess up and be caught by the police.

And after the Karmein Chan abduction and subsequent murder in April 1991 (her body was not found for another year), no similar crimes in 33 years since then. The only name I've seen with tentative suggestions to the involvement of Mr. Cruel is Rhianna Barreau, a 12-year-old girl who vanished without trace from Adelaide in October 1992, but this only speculation and nothing out of Melbourne where the Mr. Cruel abductions took place in the late 1980s and very early 1990s.

The tentative link to the Rhianna Barreau case was the sighting of a white car with Vic plates loitering around the streets where she disappeared.

The 2 other cases that were identical to RB were Cherie Westell (2000) and Bung Siriboon (2011). They both just happened to go to the same school - Boronia Heights Secondary College. Cherie was walking towards Ringwood, which is obviously the suburb where Sharon Wills was abducted from. Bung was from Boronia, which is a couple of suburbs east. Sharon was dropped off in Bayswater, which is directly between Ringwood and Boronia.

There are definite geographical similarities; it is the time lag that creates doubt. Why nothing for nearly a decade? Obviously differing MO to Cruel as well, but still involving girls around the same age.

 

[Earls Smother]

Keep thinking about the show and how the big hook was the DNA sample from the first case, but the show never provided any evidence to suggest the DNA sample was from the perpetrator, it's just assumed it was by the hosts. This could explain why the detectives on the case had never heard about it - basically, it wasn't considered strong enough evidence (e.g. it could have been on something that multiple people handled over time).

Also, even if it was the perpetrator's DNA, it's another the leap to conclude that because one of the non-canon cases had different DNA to the Sharon Wills case that the canon cases aren't linked with each other.

Let me know if I missed anything here but the whole premise seems very flawed.

Agree. Confusing as to what the show was trying to achieve. Does Shand know more, but not allowed to run with it? The interview with the bike rider kid from the LP case was clearly compromised in what they were allowed to say.

It is totally implausible that the MC crimes could have just coincidentally ended up so similiar, with more than one perpetrator. However, it is not impossible that 2 like-minded nutters met through work, sport, social group etc. and planned to execute the crimes together, taking turns with various aspects. This would not only confuse investigators, but would provide alibis more easily if something went wrong.

Thinking about it some more, the Hampton "my wife, your dad" reason given for the attack, had to be rubbish. How could they not locate the offender very easily if that was true? The dad might have resisted initially if he was having an affair, but for his daughter's sake would have told police who the woman was. Not hard to then identify her partner. So we do have the red herring pattern appearing to start.

In the Nicola Lynas case, MC said something along the lines of "they think I did the one 18 months ago (Sharon Wills), but I couldn't have as I wasn't in the state". Given that information is easily findable on Melbourne Marvels, why didn't they include that to support their case? Particularly given EG from MM was actually on the show. It could be red herring based nonsense, but it does seem to be an odd thing to say in isolation.

As you say with the DNA, we just lack any certainty as to the validity of so many aspects of this case.

 

[melbournemarvels]

Few observations FWIW.

The first Hampton attack (girl interviewed) seemed to specifically target her. The guy admitted to her that he had broken into the house previously. He also told her his wife had been playing around with her dad and that was the reason for the attack. Surely not hard to follow up if any truth to that? This one could be a one-off, and doesn't suddenly mean Mr. Cruel didn't exist, as claimed by Shand. If the wife/dad story was easily disproven, then it was the start of the red herring trail which became a constant.

The detective whose identity was hidden, reckons there was DNA samples from that first case and the Sharon Wills case. They apparently don't match. Given how huge a DNA sample is, how is it possible that detectives on the Spectrum task force like O'Connor, can't remember their existence? Those detectives might be retired, but none have lost their marbles and you are not forgetting something that significant.

If the samples exist, particularly the SW one, then surely at least some of the "Sierra files" 7 suspects can be exculpated? If not potentially all of them? If you eliminate 6, then at least you can narrow the focus accordingly.

Why, after getting nowhere for 35 years, is there such a reluctance from police to release more accurate information to the public? It's not like the culprit/s are shaking in their boots with where it currently sits.

Very good comment.

 

[melbournemarvels]

Melbourne Marvels has released The Edgar’s Creek Suspect Sighting – Mr Cruel 9 with an interview with a man who claims he saw mr Cruel on the night of Karmein Chan's abduction.

 

[johnymac1]

Melbourne Marvels has released The Edgar’s Creek Suspect Sighting – Mr Cruel 9 with an interview with a man who claims he saw mr Cruel on the night of Karmein Chan's abduction.

the firing of shots is more likely bikie related. with no links to KC's murder.

 

[Earls Smother]

Melbourne Marvels has released The Edgar’s Creek Suspect Sighting – Mr Cruel 9 with an interview with a man who claims he saw mr Cruel on the night of Karmein Chan's abduction.

Well done. Potentially fits with the burial site being further up Edgars Creek i.e. moved his intended site after being seen.

Why did he think the guy was wearing a wig? It is mentioned but not really explained. If he wanted to hide his hair, why wouldn't he just wear a hat or beanie? We seem to find this a bit with these sightings. The young cyclists that potentially saw him at the Lower Plenty offence - no real description released to the public (certainly not revealed on Adam Shand's show). Surely they at least saw what colour and type of hair he had?

Even the kerb-crawler reportedly seen hanging around PLC. Why no basic details like hair colour? If we were getting some consistent similarities, there would be more confidence they were the same person.

 

[windchimes]

Well done. Potentially fits with the burial site being further up Edgars Creek i.e. moved his intended site after being seen.

Why did he think the guy was wearing a wig? It is mentioned but not really explained. If he wanted to hide his hair, why wouldn't he just wear a hat or beanie? We seem to find this a bit with these sightings. The young cyclists that potentially saw him at the Lower Plenty offence - no real description released to the public (certainly not revealed on Adam Shand's show). Surely they at least saw what colour and type of hair he had?

Even the kerb-crawler reportedly seen hanging around PLC. Why no basic details like hair colour? If we were getting some consistent similarities, there would be more confidence they were the same person.

The spectrum taskforce had ‘brown to ginger hair and beard’ as their (somewhat vague) working description of the offender they were looking for.

Reading between the lines, I interpret it as that that a few of those suspect eyewitness sightings (e.g the Lower Plenty attack, PLC Kerb Crawler among others) have possibly reported a description along those lines to police, which is why the taskforce had that particular working description. It is unclear whether VPOL still hold that view now, though.

 

[OnTheRocks]

ginger hair and beard

Would make sense why he potentially wore a disguise & went to extreme lengths to hide any chance of identity.

 

[johnymac1]

It's good to see that people are still actively searching for the detention home.
Their finding are posted on Redditt and a FB page called Catching Mr Cruel

 

[johnymac1]

Melbourne Marvels has released The Edgar’s Creek Suspect Sighting – Mr Cruel 9 with an interview with a man who claims he saw mr Cruel on the night of Karmein Chan's abduction.

If it was Mr Cruel, you have wonder on his motivation. In discharging a firearm within close proximity to a biker property.

Just speculating, no evidence to point to the action. Was he trying to implicate the Bikie members and throw police off with a false lead?

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

According to this Wikipedia article there's a non Russell Street bombing angle to the Prue Bird disappearance.

Murder of Prue Bird - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know that the Bega schoolgirls killer Leslie Camilleri has gone down for this, but the article portrays this Maurice Marion guy who was a known rapist and bank robber, and is also one of the people suspected of being Mr Cruel as a very likely suspect as well.

Of course it could all still be connected to the Russell Street incident, but i think Prue possibly could've been another Mr Cruel victim.

Maurice Marion also shares a lot of the features that Mr Cruel had according to witnesses, i.e. slightly reddish hair and a pot belly.

 

[melbournemarvels]

According to this Wikipedia article there's a non Russell Street bombing angle to the Prue Bird disappearance.

Murder of Prue Bird - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know that the Bega schoolgirls killer Leslie Camilleri has gone down for this, but the article portrays this Maurice Marion guy who was a known rapist and bank robber, and is also one of the people suspected of being Mr Cruel as a very likely suspect as well.

Of course it could all still be connected to the Russell Street incident, but i think Prue possibly could've been another Mr Cruel victim.

Maurice Marion also shares a lot of the features that Mr Cruel had according to witnesses, i.e. slightly reddish hair and a pot belly.

I've always thought the same.

 

[melbournemarvels]

New podcast out on Karmein Chan from Melbourne Marvels.

 

[johnymac1]

New podcast out on Karmein Chan from Melbourne Marvels.

some info I've not heard before

 

[Macca180]

some info I've not heard before

such as?

 

[johnymac1]

such as?

just the info about the dads alleged crime connections
and non existent security alarm

 

[theflyingviking]

Did norm Lee have a pot belly ?
May have already been mentioned…I’m not sure


But listening to podcasts etc and how honest Ron idles obviously is …. And circa 30 thousand houses near airport eliminated by vigilant detectives, and Alf gay had no reason to bring it up let alone lie , if he did it’s open and shut that it was him imo

 

[OnTheRocks]

 

[Ostins_Park]

The tentative link to the Rhianna Barreau case was the sighting of a white car with Vic plates loitering around the streets where she disappeared.

The 2 other cases that were identical to RB were Cherie Westell (2000) and Bung Siriboon (2011). They both just happened to go to the same school - Boronia Heights Secondary College. Cherie was walking towards Ringwood, which is obviously the suburb where Sharon Wills was abducted from. Bung was from Boronia, which is a couple of suburbs east. Sharon was dropped off in Bayswater, which is directly between Ringwood and Boronia.

There are definite geographical similarities; it is the time lag that creates doubt. Why nothing for nearly a decade? Obviously differing MO to Cruel as well, but still involving girls around the same age.

Why nothing for nearly a decade?

Best fit answer for this is usually: doing jail time.

 

[justlookingaround]

The tentative link to the Rhianna Barreau case was the sighting of a white car with Vic plates loitering around the streets where she disappeared.

The 2 other cases that were identical to RB were Cherie Westell (2000) and Bung Siriboon (2011). They both just happened to go to the same school - Boronia Heights Secondary College. Cherie was walking towards Ringwood, which is obviously the suburb where Sharon Wills was abducted from. Bung was from Boronia, which is a couple of suburbs east. Sharon was dropped off in Bayswater, which is directly between Ringwood and Boronia.

There are definite geographical similarities; it is the time lag that creates doubt. Why nothing for nearly a decade? Obviously differing MO to Cruel as well, but still involving girls around the same age.

I spent a lot of time around the spot where Cherie Westell disappeared from when I was a teenager (as she was last seen at the bus stop that I got off in the morning to meet my mate and walk to school) and I would say that the 'walking to Ringwood' part that is reported is probably not accurate.
To the best of my recall the story is she was last seen at the bus stop of Selkirk Avenue/Wantirna Rd and that she was on her way to the dentist. If that's where she was seen and she was waiting for a bus, then her dentist would have been towards Knox City, as that's where the bus runs from that side of the road - ie away from Ringwood.
If she was walking away from the bus stop towards Ringwood, I'd say the dentist she was going to was probably the one on the corner of Canterbury Rd/Wantirna Rd - which is in Heathmont, not Ringwood. If she was going to a dentist in Ringwood she probably would've been on the other side of the road waiting for the 901, cos it's a 10 min bus ride vs a ~45 minute walk.

I bring this up because it is my view that VicPol didn't conduct a meaningful investigation into Cherie's disappearance in 2000, and I think this basic and obvious jumbling of facts supports that.
There is scant, effectively zero information about her disappearance and the investigation, and what is out there is doesn't make proper sense. I think the police probably got the missing report, saw she was a foster kid and assumed she'd run off. There probably wasn't anyone advocating for her to be found.

I think due to the lack of investigation there is far too little evidence to link Cherie's disappearance to Bung's, or the Mr Cruel cases without it being sensationalist in one way or another. There is obviously a geographical link, but the eastern suburbs of Melbourne is one of the biggest suburban sprawls in the country and I think it's very likely that there's more than one person who's abducted a kid and never been caught living in the area.

It's sad, I don't think we'll ever know what happened to Cherie, we don't even really know the circumstances of her disappearance.

 

[Earls Smother]

Why nothing for nearly a decade?

Best fit answer for this is usually: doing jail time.

Agree, but also the easiest to identify and investigate.

Police raided Brian Elkner's house when Bung went missing. He was/is the number one suspect for MC based on the Sierra files (top 7 suspects) due to prior offences. Anyone with a known history of prior offending and subsequent stints in jail, would be the first looked at.

 

[Earls Smother]

I spent a lot of time around the spot where Cherie Westell disappeared from when I was a teenager (as she was last seen at the bus stop that I got off in the morning to meet my mate and walk to school) and I would say that the 'walking to Ringwood' part that is reported is probably not accurate.
To the best of my recall the story is she was last seen at the bus stop of Selkirk Avenue/Wantirna Rd and that she was on her way to the dentist. If that's where she was seen and she was waiting for a bus, then her dentist would have been towards Knox City, as that's where the bus runs from that side of the road - ie away from Ringwood.
If she was walking away from the bus stop towards Ringwood, I'd say the dentist she was going to was probably the one on the corner of Canterbury Rd/Wantirna Rd - which is in Heathmont, not Ringwood. If she was going to a dentist in Ringwood she probably would've been on the other side of the road waiting for the 901, cos it's a 10 min bus ride vs a ~45 minute walk.

I bring this up because it is my view that VicPol didn't conduct a meaningful investigation into Cherie's disappearance in 2000, and I think this basic and obvious jumbling of facts supports that.
There is scant, effectively zero information about her disappearance and the investigation, and what is out there is doesn't make proper sense. I think the police probably got the missing report, saw she was a foster kid and assumed she'd run off. There probably wasn't anyone advocating for her to be found.

I think due to the lack of investigation there is far too little evidence to link Cherie's disappearance to Bung's, or the Mr Cruel cases without it being sensationalist in one way or another. There is obviously a geographical link, but the eastern suburbs of Melbourne is one of the biggest suburban sprawls in the country and I think it's very likely that there's more than one person who's abducted a kid and never been caught living in the area.

It's sad, I don't think we'll ever know what happened to Cherie, we don't even really know the circumstances of her disappearance.

You are correct re the last sighting, but she was definitely on her way home from the dentist. She made a phone call at 1:58pm from the phone box at the corner of Selkirk Ave and Wantirna Rd, hoping to be picked up.

She had been to the dentist next to Knox City earlier that day. There is some missing time, but she probably went into the shopping centre and maybe had lunch.

She very likely then caught the wrong bus - the 664 went to Mooroolbark and the 665 to Ringwood. She got off the bus at the stop you are referring to, after she realised she was going the wrong way (i.e. not to Mooroolbark). Then she made the phone call. After that we have no idea as you say.

The link to Bung is going to the same school, Boronia Heights secondary college. There are only 2 teenage girls in Victoria in the last 30 years who have gone missing and not been found - these 2. Pretty big coincidence, just like Nicola Lynas and Karmein Chan going to the same school years earlier.

 

[GreyCrow]

I spent a lot of time around the spot where Cherie Westell disappeared from when I was a teenager (as she was last seen at the bus stop that I got off in the morning to meet my mate and walk to school) and I would say that the 'walking to Ringwood' part that is reported is probably not accurate.
To the best of my recall the story is she was last seen at the bus stop of Selkirk Avenue/Wantirna Rd and that she was on her way to the dentist. If that's where she was seen and she was waiting for a bus, then her dentist would have been towards Knox City, as that's where the bus runs from that side of the road - ie away from Ringwood.
If she was walking away from the bus stop towards Ringwood, I'd say the dentist she was going to was probably the one on the corner of Canterbury Rd/Wantirna Rd - which is in Heathmont, not Ringwood. If she was going to a dentist in Ringwood she probably would've been on the other side of the road waiting for the 901, cos it's a 10 min bus ride vs a ~45 minute walk.

I bring this up because it is my view that VicPol didn't conduct a meaningful investigation into Cherie's disappearance in 2000, and I think this basic and obvious jumbling of facts supports that.
There is scant, effectively zero information about her disappearance and the investigation, and what is out there is doesn't make proper sense. I think the police probably got the missing report, saw she was a foster kid and assumed she'd run off. There probably wasn't anyone advocating for her to be found.

I think due to the lack of investigation there is far too little evidence to link Cherie's disappearance to Bung's, or the Mr Cruel cases without it being sensationalist in one way or another. There is obviously a geographical link, but the eastern suburbs of Melbourne is one of the biggest suburban sprawls in the country and I think it's very likely that there's more than one person who's abducted a kid and never been caught living in the area.

It's sad, I don't think we'll ever know what happened to Cherie, we don't even really know the circumstances of her disappearance.

Thank you for the local knowledge

I agree there seems to be a lack of cohesiveness which may have muddied the waters

 

[justlookingaround]

Thank you for the local knowledge

I agree there seems to be a lack of cohesiveness which may have muddied the waters

Earls definitely cleared up the confusion with his reply, I'd never heard it mentioned that she ended up at that bus stop because she got on the wrong one at Ringwood.

 

[Ostins_Park]

Could have been identifying items, like photographs, book collection or videos. Although why he went to so much effort through the series to merely throw a cover over a furniture item is a bit odd when he could simply have removed it all and packed it away out of sight entirely in his preparations.

Hidden camera? Hole in the wall behind it maybe so he could spy? I should remember this but it's lost information atm, was it the same girl who saw the camera on a tripod that noticed the cover on the cupboard? Nicola Lynas?

Late to this one but nevertheless... obvious answer IMHO is that it wasn't his house. I'd say it was his Mum's place, something like that.