Society/Culture Hypocrisy of The Left - part 3

Gethelred

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I understand what you mean. The far right and the far left do tend to be more stubborn in their shift though, wouldnt you agree? Identifying as more of a left, right or centrist means you are more capable of moving both ways, you can practice compromise. I've seen both far left and far right people who acknowledge that's what they are and flat out refuse to even consider sliding out of their happy nest of idelogoly.
... which is the other side effect of the modern centrism fad; that people who are a long way 'out there' ideologically are not worth listening to, or that they aren't there for a reason.

The idea is, you need to be able to hear from them just as much as you need to hear from Joe Blow who is genuinely a swing voter. These people - regardless of how anarchist/racist/whatever they are (as an anarchist myself, I'm pretty far out there anyway, albeit in a weird direction) - are potentially more important, as they represent a part of society driven to the edge of civility, and they are the people you need to bring back in.

I know what you are saying, but this is a hill I am willing to die on. And I won't be standing on the centre of it when it happens.
 

iBeng

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... which is the other side effect of the modern centrism fad; that people who are a long way 'out there' ideologically are not worth listening to, or that they aren't there for a reason.

The idea is, you need to be able to hear from them just as much as you need to hear from Joe Blow who is genuinely a swing voter. These people - regardless of how anarchist/racist/whatever they are (as an anarchist myself, I'm pretty far out there anyway, albeit in a weird direction) - are potentially more important, as they represent a part of society driven to the edge of civility, and they are the people you need to bring back in.

I know what you are saying, but this is a hill I am willing to die on. And I won't be standing on the centre of it when it happens.
Yeah I get your point, I've interacted with a lot of people that are both extreme left and extreme right while I had all my spare time in the last few days and would take in their view, acknowledge it and then offer them a counter view. Generally the response was to go on the personal attack or completely shut down and blame everything on the opposite side of the fence.
 

Gethelred

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Yeah I get your point, I've interacted with a lot of people that are both extreme left and extreme right while I had all my spare time in the last few days and would take in their view, acknowledge it and then offer them a counter view. Generally the response was to go on the personal attack or completely shut down and blame everything on the opposite side of the fence.
Unfortunately, that's other people, all other people. Some are more polite than others, but in general it's very, very rare you walked into a political conversation and you or the other party changed their mind.

Take this interaction, for example. This has been - by SRP standards - a fairly polite conversation, but I'm not moving and neither are you. We understand each other's point of view, though, and that is more than enough. People take in information, and over time that information goes into forming their internal schemes, and over time their views change. You might not be around to see it, but every time you do what you stated you did with the person you've spoken to above you add another facet to their internal world views and experiences, one which they may not have been willing to accept in that moment but afterwards gave more thought to.

This is important. We need all opinions. All of them. Only then can we be certain we have taken every single possible step to be right.
 

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iBeng

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Unfortunately, that's other people, all other people. Some are more polite than others, but in general it's very, very rare you walked into a political conversation and you or the other party changed their mind.

Take this interaction, for example. This has been - by SRP standards - a fairly polite conversation, but I'm not moving and neither are you. We understand each other's point of view, though, and that is more than enough. People take in information, and over time that information goes into forming their internal schemes, and over time their views change. You might not be around to see it, but every time you do what you stated you did with the person you've spoken to above you add another facet to their internal world views and experiences, one which they may not have been willing to accept in that moment but afterwards gave more thought to.

This is important. We need all opinions. All of them. Only then can we be certain we have taken every single possible step to be right.
Yeah, I've made a conscious shift recently to not try and change the mind of someone extreme to the left or right or elsewhere but to just open their mind a little bit, put a drop of critical thinking into their mindset so they may just catch a glimpse of exactly what a little bit of compromise can achieve. No one likes to compromise, it's a pretty inhuman trait, animals are not prone to compromise after all. But learning it breeds tolerance and then understanding and ultimately acceptance of things.
 

ABSOLUTE MADMAN

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A guy tries to cancel something that is not really racist, then has to apologise for saying something that wasn't really racist.
He is such a b*tch for apologising for that. He stumbled on his words a little when discussing a difficult topic. That's it.

I recall one Qanda (I think) where he called out a Christian guy on the panel but was deathly silent and too cowardly to call it out when a Muslim said something much worse on the same panel

LOL at having to pull the line with your market like that.
 

iBeng

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He is such a b*tch for apologising for that. He stumbled on his words a little when discussing a difficult topic. That's it.

I recall one Qanda (I think) where he called out a Christian guy on the panel but was deathly silent and too cowardly to call it out when a Muslim said something much worse on the same panel

LOL at having to pull the line with your market like that.
Not all comedians draw lines at Muslim jokes at least, Jim Jefferies happily pokes that bear.
 

Gethelred

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He is such a b*tch for apologising for that. He stumbled on his words a little when discussing a difficult topic. That's it.

I recall one Qanda (I think) where he called out a Christian guy on the panel but was deathly silent and too cowardly to call it out when a Muslim said something much worse on the same panel

LOL at having to pull the line with your market like that.
I find Thomas funny, but he's being careful here. He relies on an awful lot of the very people who could criticise him for his income. It is no different to journalists from Newscorp not criticising Rupert, or Sky after dark not going after Morrison for Jobkeeper. One should not bite the hand that feeds, unless one wants to be without work or money.

Consistency is, unfortunately, a luxury of the extremely wealthy.
 

Gethelred

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Not all comedians draw lines at Muslim jokes at least, Jim Jefferies happily pokes that bear.
That's part of his schtic, though. He pokes at people, generally with a filthy mouth, and he cuts through the bullshit. That's his act. Josh Thomas is different, and he's both not as successful and he lacks the broadness of demographic, therefore he has to be careful about who he offends.
 

iBeng

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I find Thomas funny, but he's being careful here. He relies on an awful lot of the very people who could criticise him for his income. It is no different to journalists from Newscorp not criticising Rupert, or Sky after dark not going after Morrison for Jobkeeper. One should not bite the hand that feeds, unless one wants to be without work or money.

Consistency is, unfortunately, a luxury of the extremely wealthy.
You just became my spirit animal. It's going to be a badger and I dont negotiate on that.
 

iBeng

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That's part of his schtic, though. He pokes at people, generally with a filthy mouth, and he cuts through the bullshit. That's his act. Josh Thomas is different, and he's both not as successful and he lacks the broadness of demographic, therefore he has to be careful about who he offends.
Jim falls into that shock value comedy while Josh prefers the family friendly borderline kind of stuff so yeah as you said he needs to watch he doesnt bite the hand that feeds.
 

Gethelred

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Gethelred Are you a fan of George Carlin?
I have time for his old stuff, but he got very 'Old man shouts at cloud' in his old age. I also wildly disagree with his views on not voting. You cannot change society from outside it.
Good thing ISO's over and iBeng and Gethelred can get a room.

I called it, very early. It is a beautiful thing to see a romance blossom.

It really does prove the notion that there is someone out there for everyone.
I'm amused.

Here we are, actively disproving your initial entry into this thread - that post count = level of hypocrisy - and here you are, even helping my point along. Look at you go now, Fadge; are you following me around?

I really do wonder just how much room in your head these little interactions take up; how much you wither and seethe at every attempt to find a means to poke at me when it fails. And I think, maybe I should display some sign of hurt, maybe pretend for a moment you could maybe, just maybe, have got to me, even just a little.

But then I think, nah.
 

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iBeng

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I'm sort of in two minds of voting. Making it compulsory sounds good, but I also knew plenty of people who walked in went 1 2 3 4 5 Micky mouse and walked out. Whereas Americas version of vote if you want is worse from the outset.
 

Ants

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A guy tries to cancel something that is not really racist, then has to apologise for saying something that wasn't really racist.
That video from 2016 is a nothing burger. Josh Thomas's words could only be seen as racist if taken out of context. The fact is that many people who work in 7/11's are from the subcontinent. So what! Many truck drivers are white, many teachers are female. Again, so what! The disappointing aspect is that he made a grovelling apology for it when he should have stood his ground.
Hmm, I'd have said that's pretty racist. He's effectively bemoaning that he can't find minority actors for a simple role, because he wants experience, he's complaining that nobody else gave these actors a chance so he can get an experienced one, while ignoring that he could give them a chance and his first acting roles he had no experience for.

Also, the photo in your article might be misleading, but its certainly implying that the cast was 100% white. I've never watched the show, so I have no idea if that is true. But if it is, bemoaning you can't get experienced actors, while the two main actors are inexperienced, and 100% of the cast is white, seems pretty racist.
 

Ants

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I hate it.

Neither side has a monopoly on the truth, and the partisan support both sides receive has value. The obsession with non-existent centrism is as much illusion as it is a ploy to turn people against those with definitive opinion.
Agreed. Its the lowest form of They'reAllTheSameism. It assumes that both sides are the same, without any insight or analysis. Its like saying that both sides of climate change are the same, while one had 99% of the scientific community and the other 1%. But heh, a "centrist" view on climate change would be in the middle, right?

The video effectively assumes that neither side could be correct, and therefore they're both foolish. It also assumes both sides equally ignore the other side. Now, while that is certainly true of some individuals on both sides, it's also a significant strawman more generally.

I do agree that the idea that there is a single "central" position is silly. Almost as much so as that there is a single right/left axis. The reality is there are multiple axis. There are people who are socially progressive or conservative, economically progressive or conservative, or class progressive or conservative (there are probably others). Its how you get institutions like the Labour party who have been traditionally class progressive, but socially conservative, which has made them fitting with some more liberal positions harder. Or the right wing and progressive wing of the Liberal party (epitomised by Abbot and Turnball).

To be centrist on every axis would be hell of an achievement!
 

Gethelred

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I'm sort of in two minds of voting. Making it compulsory sounds good, but I also knew plenty of people who walked in went 1 2 3 4 5 Micky mouse and walked out. Whereas Americas version of vote if you want is worse from the outset.
Bear in mind, I'm also pro compulsory National service outside times of war too. You've got to give to get, and there's worse things to learn than how to protect yourself and the expectations of what would be required during war.

There's also the fact that politicians would be less willing to go to war if their children or grandchildren were current serving members, and they'd be less likely to wield the state against its citizens akin to what we're seeing in America.

But in any case, compulsory voting is required for a true democracy. A donkey vote is a choice, albeit one I would never make.

There is a difference between George Carlin's choosing not to vote in order to be outside the system, and donkey voting because you don't give a fu**. You don't care, you don't care; I'm not going to force you to. But choosing not to vote because it sets you outside society is an anti-social choice, and should be seen as such. You have opted out of a society that has nurtured and protected you; you have rejected the people who stood here and brought you to this point. It's an insult to them, and it's insulting to all of us.
 

ABSOLUTE MADMAN

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Not all comedians draw lines at Muslim jokes at least, Jim Jefferies happily pokes that bear.
That particular qanda related to gay marriage and gay rights from memory. He squibbed saying something back after the Muslim panellist aired their view but was happy to call out the Christian.
 

iBeng

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That's part of his schtic, though. He pokes at people, generally with a filthy mouth, and he cuts through the bullshit. That's his act. Josh Thomas is different, and he's both not as successful and he lacks the broadness of demographic, therefore he has to be careful about who he offends.
Speaking of Jim Jefferies, I enjoyed his show he had in America until Comedy Central dropped it. He touched on some not so easy to talk about subjects and this one is very on topic:
 

Evolved1

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Boom. That's exactly the kind of comment which makes it god damn impossible to have a rational conversation. You get a bunch of people clapping, you embarrass the person wanting to discuss the issue. It's not helpful. At all. And it builds dissent.

A middle ground. Okay.
I will concede that racism and police brutality exists. It does. It's just silly to deny the existence of it completely.
What I have a real problem with is declarative statements that this is the only issue at play.

It's very nuanced. Cops and emergency services eat a line of sh*t every day, and to say blanket statements about the people who protect the most vulnerable, who deal with the homeless, who deal with domestic violence cases, I think is the wrong way to go about it.

I think that police, in general, are a bit too heavy-handed in America, this is not a racial issue, and needs to be addressed.
Also, cops in America fear getting shot because of the availability of high power firearms. The crime rates (especially in the hood) are off the charts.
I wouldn't go in there because I'd be sh*t scared, and those who do probably go in there very primed and ready.

Additionally, culture is important. Police deal with an attitude of "snitches get stitches". Which means solving a murder is completely impossible.
There's a distrust of them which is largely due to historical abuse, and i get that. But black people are cops too, and this needs to change.
There's a vicious cycle, high crime rates mean a high police presence. Kids growing up seeing this hatred and will beget hatred.

How to fix this? sh*t i don't know. But it's not just "Racism, damn racism". How do we fix youth culture which is fed this narrative?
I wouldn't be a police. Fk that. Tough gig, and they're being made to look like monsters.

But at the same time, seeing that video of a man beg for his mother made me sick. And ANY police officer who does that should be charged with murder.
Sorry for the derail. I just see this issue never going away in the next 100 years.
I was just thinking aloud, wondering about what a middle ground might look like while awaiting your response. Judging by the number of likes your comment received (3) vs mine (1), it's fair to think you had more people cheering your response than mine. Anyway, moving on.

As a police officer, it's their job to treat everyone fairly and impartially afaic. That's my ideal. We know that isn't the case because studies have shown that black people are targeted 'randomly' with a higher frequency than white people. While I can understand that being a policeperson is stressful, even in Australia, that doesn't give them the right to unleash the frustrations and stresses of their job on innocent people. That's something I refuse to accept.

Some police are polite and respectful, some ask unnecessarily intrusive questions as if they're a parent talking to a child, and some speak like a drill sergeant giving orders. Are the latter two approaches really necessary when dealing with the general public?

An analogy I found useful in regards to racial inequality comes from monopoly. If you joined a monopoly game after 3 other people were playing for 2 hours and had bought up most of the real estate, you'd be playing by the same rules but starting off well behind. It's no wonder POC have more problems in the US.
 

Evolved1

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Agreed. Its the lowest form of They'reAllTheSameism. It assumes that both sides are the same, without any insight or analysis. Its like saying that both sides of climate change are the same, while one had 99% of the scientific community and the other 1%. But heh, a "centrist" view on climate change would be in the middle, right?

The video effectively assumes that neither side could be correct, and therefore they're both foolish. It also assumes both sides equally ignore the other side. Now, while that is certainly true of some individuals on both sides, it's also a significant strawman more generally.

I do agree that the idea that there is a single "central" position is silly. Almost as much so as that there is a single right/left axis. The reality is there are multiple axis. There are people who are socially progressive or conservative, economically progressive or conservative, or class progressive or conservative (there are probably others). Its how you get institutions like the Labour party who have been traditionally class progressive, but socially conservative, which has made them fitting with some more liberal positions harder. Or the right wing and progressive wing of the Liberal party (epitomised by Abbot and Turnball).

To be centrist on every axis would be hell of an achievement!
I swing between extremities of the left and right, which balance each other out and make me centrist.

It's good to be part of the sensible center.
 

YippeeYiYeo

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anyone else find it hilarious that when Trump jokingly says the US should have stopped testing so many people to reduce the COVID19 figures that the left cant stop bleating about it in the media. Yet when Dan Andrews does similar you dont hear a word from them?
 

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