Opinion Hypothetical 2021 Best 22

[HODGEYROAD]

The forward-line is the biggest worry.

Yeah especially when 3 non highlighted players are potentially not good enough irrespective of age in Lewis, TOB and Hanrahan.

 

[Pessimistic]

I disagree with that. He didn't really have much impact for me last year at all.

Absolute champion, so lots of people get prickly over this, but all you need to do is look at his 2020 stats. It was a significant decline, goals aside. He's 38 and we are likely a bottom six list in need of a rebuild. I said earlier, we will probably have 10 or more players most weeks who are 25 or over. Surely that's enough to take the heat of the kids.

Hopefully we see him against the contending teams, and if/when we have injuries to more senior players. I'd be disappointed if he is considered best 22.

Just as a matter of interest you did factor in shorter quarters?

 

[KermitJagger]

I disagree with that. He didn't really have much impact for me last year at all.

Absolute champion, so lots of people get prickly over this, but all you need to do is look at his 2020 stats. It was a significant decline, goals aside. He's 38 and we are likely a bottom six list in need of a rebuild. I said earlier, we will probably have 10 or more players most weeks who are 25 or over. Surely that's enough to take the heat off the kids.

Hopefully we see him against the contending teams, and if/when we have injuries to more senior players. I'd be disappointed if he is considered best 22.

A few things to ask here - if he didn't have much impact, did he have more impact than any incumbent we had in the seconds could have had? Probably. Did he have more of an impact on leadership than any incumbent in the seconds? Definitely. Was he more versatile than any incumbent? Again, definitely.

His output was statistically poorer than usual yeah, he's older, the quarters were shorter and he was playing in a forward line that barely got a sniff. That said, those old stalwarts still offer sports teams a lot. Take the NBA for example, with Dwight Howard - far beyond his best in terms of output but is still a useful contributor off the bench for what he does well. Won a championship with the Lakers last year, and is a decent chance to win one this year with the 76ers.

You talk about people getting prickly when Silk is criticised, but it's nothing compared to the prickliness of people when you suggest that maybe at 39 years old still he has more right to be in the side than whatever fourth round pick we could shoehorn in for no reason other than them being younger.

It's not as though we're omitting a highly promising first rounder to keep him in the side, if he's keeping anyone out of the side it's a long shot prospect a bees dick away from even being taken in the draft.

Youth for youth sake isn't development.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

What's the point in playing a 39 year old in a rebuilding team? He is literally no chance of being around when we are a decent side again.

All the leadership, tutoring, etc that he can provide can be done off the field.

I doubt that Hodge was ever signed with the intention of playing in the Lions' next premiership either - but his on-field leadership was hugely beneficial for that young side.

Presently this is our players aged 29 or over:



Take out Scully as he is retired, Hartigan is new to the club and Brooksby is purely depth. That leaves you with 6 players total who are in that mature on-field general bracket. Burgoyne can still play around the ground and being that we are going to have a lot of youth across all lines - his on-field leadership will absolutely be important.

 

[OnTheRocks]

Burgoyne's leadership on field will be just as important we are a fractured team down back with players coming back from injury, from other sides and youngens trying to cement their position.

^^^ This
Nobody knows the backline better than Burger

 

[hawkdork83]

Just as a matter of interest you did factor in shorter quarters?

Yep.

 

[hawkdork83]

A few things to ask here - if he didn't have much impact, did he have more impact than any incumbent we had in the seconds could have had? Probably. Did he have more of an impact on leadership than any incumbent in the seconds? Definitely. Was he more versatile than any incumbent? Again, definitely.

His output was statistically poorer than usual yeah, he's older, the quarters were shorter and he was playing in a forward line that barely got a sniff. That said, those old stalwarts still offer sports teams a lot. Take the NBA for example, with Dwight Howard - far beyond his best in terms of output but is still a useful contributor off the bench for what he does well. Won a championship with the Lakers last year, and is a decent chance to win one this year with the 76ers.

You talk about people getting prickly when Silk is criticised, but it's nothing compared to the prickliness of people when you suggest that maybe at 39 years old still he has more right to be in the side than whatever fourth round pick we could shoehorn in for no reason other than them being younger.

It's not as though we're omitting a highly promising first rounder to keep him in the side, if he's keeping anyone out of the side it's a long shot prospect a bees dick away from even being taken in the draft.

Youth for youth sake isn't development.

Dylan Moore earned two Brownlow votes in the last game of the year. He played three games in 2020. Greaves played three games. CJ five. Finn one. Cousins six. Finn aside, I think all showed in the games they played that they deserved more games than Silk in 2020. Add Downie into that mix this year, perhaps Brockman, and hopefully Morris has had a solid pre-season. Hanrahan I think still needs more games to see if he can make it, if he can fix his ball handling he might make it. Have we given up on Howe?

These are the names that will miss out at various points Silk plays in 2021.We need most of these guys to make it, and I think most have shown that they are much better than some long shot you are mentioning.

Like I said, he adds value to our list for a multitude of reasons you have mentioned, but he shouldn't be a best 22 player at age 38 with our list where it is. Rebuilding. He should be a depth player that we use at various points over the season to rest young kids against bigger teams and when we have injuries to senior players.

 

[hawkdork83]

I doubt that Hodge was ever signed with the intention of playing in the Lions' next premiership either - but his on-field leadership was hugely beneficial for that young side.

Presently this is our players aged 29 or over:

View attachment 1049897

Take out Scully as he is retired, Hartigan is new to the club and Brooksby is purely depth. That leaves you with 6 players total who are in that mature on-field general bracket. Burgoyne can still play around the ground and being that we are going to have a lot of youth across all lines - his on-field leadership will absolutely be important.

Might have changed without Scully a bit, but we are ranked 7th oldest in average age. Which is a clear shift. But we are still not a super young team lacking players with experience that will play weekly. It's why I don't see this as a Dixon/Vanderberg situation. O'Meara, Mitchell, Wingard and Impey really need to step up and fill that void along with the 29 plus you have mentioned.

 

[Holy Rioli]

I'll be tearing the walls of the club down if Finn is fit and not playing next season.

Get ready to tear down walls.

I want the best 22 players playing and that's it. Who gives a * about the number on a birth certificate.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Might have changed without Scully a bit, but we are ranked 7th oldest in average age. Which is a clear shift. But we are still not a super young team lacking players with experience that will play weekly. It's why I don't see this as a Dixon/Vanderberg situation. O'Meara, Mitchell, Wingard and Impey really need to step up and fill that void along with the 29 plus you have mentioned.

Very, very rough sums but if you take Patton and Scully out our average list age goes down from 24.6 to 24.3 which would become the 7th youngest in the league. Replace both of them and Burgoyne with a 19 year old draftee and you have an average list age of 23.6 which would be the youngest in the league.

Burgoyne is really not hurting our age profile at all. Overall if you exclude him and Scully now we are one of the youngest sides in the league.

 

[threesixpio]

Greaves Hartigan Hardwick
Scrimshaw Frost Day

Impey Mitchell Jaegar
Worpel Shiels BB

Brockman Lewis Burgers
Nash Kosi Bruest

Phillips Timmy CJ Cousins

Inexperience on every line. Ahh * it

Timmy plays due to versatility. Burgers needed in Forwardline for assistance setting up. Day, Hardwick and Hartigan required to be leaders down back

 

[hawkdork83]

Greaves Hartigan Hardwick
Scrimshaw Frost Day

Impey Mitchell Jaegar
Worpel Shiels BB

Brockman Lewis Burgers
Nash Kosi Bruest

Phillips Timmy CJ Cousins

Inexperience on every line. Ahh **** it

Timmy plays due to versatility. Burgers needed in Forward line for assistance setting up. Day, Hardwick and Hartigan required to be leaders down back

Wingard.

Hopefully Grainger-Barras is pushing for round 1. Interesting if McEvoy rucks, but reports from training seem to suggest Ceglar is moving well and likely.

I'd like to see Moore given an extended run after his game against the Suns, and it seems from training reports he has had plenty of good moments so far in pre-season.

I'd love to see us line-up with Lewis, Kosi and Brockman in the forward half at some point this year.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

I doubt that Hodge was ever signed with the intention of playing in the Lions' next premiership either - but his on-field leadership was hugely beneficial for that young side.

Presently this is our players aged 29 or over:

View attachment 1049897

Take out Scully as he is retired, Hartigan is new to the club and Brooksby is purely depth. That leaves you with 6 players total who are in that mature on-field general bracket. Burgoyne can still play around the ground and being that we are going to have a lot of youth across all lines - his on-field leadership will absolutely be important.

I appreciate what you're saying, but age doesn't = leadership.

Also this "mature on field general" thing doesn't account for our younger leaders, some of which are in the leadership group and one of which is actually the VC - JOM, Mitchell and Worpel.

It also doesn't account for emerging leaders like Frost, Scrimshaw, Sicily, Hardwick, Wingard and Impey, who are held in high regard at the club. Day is a budding future leader too.

These players all offer leadership and have, bar Frost, spent a few years playing this game plan. This is a game plan that should be revolutionized anyway given how poor it's been, and based on pre-season training to date it looks like there will be changes.

In the end we do actually have leaders on every single area of the ground, regardless of whether Burgoyne plays or not:

Breust, Gunston and Wingard in the forward line.

Big Boy, JOM, Mitchell, Shiels and Worpel in the middle.

Big Boy?, Impey, Frost, Hardwick and Scrimshaw (+ Sicily upon his return) in the backline.

 

[Hawker1167]

Wingard.

Hopefully Grainger-Barras is pushing for round 1. Interesting if McEvoy rucks, but reports from training seem to suggest Ceglar is moving well and likely.

I'd like to see Moore given an extended run after his game against the Suns, and it seems from training reports he has had plenty of good moments so far in pre-season.

I'd love to see us line-up with Lewis, Kosi and Brockman in the forward half at some point this year.

i really hope they play Ceglar / McEvoy as the ruck and deep forward option

 

[Tony3163]

i really hope they play Ceglar / McEvoy as the ruck and deep forward option

i was hoping this, but McEvoy appears to have done pre-season as a defender.

 

[Hawker1167]

i was hoping this, but McEvoy appears to have done pre-season as a defender.

 

[Howe Amazing]

Really hope Finn plays run with role in midfield. If his issue is running patterns surely running with best mid from oppo will help him. Has the tank and size

 

[KermitJagger]

Dylan Moore earned two Brownlow votes in the last game of the year. He played three games in 2020. Greaves played three games. CJ five. Finn one. Cousins six. Finn aside, I think all showed in the games they played that they deserved more games than Silk in 2020. Add Downie into that mix this year, perhaps Brockman, and hopefully Morris has had a solid pre-season. Hanrahan I think still needs more games to see if he can make it, if he can fix his ball handling he might make it. Have we given up on Howe?

These are the names that will miss out at various points Silk plays in 2021.We need most of these guys to make it, and I think most have shown that they are much better than some long shot you are mentioning.

Like I said, he adds value to our list for a multitude of reasons you have mentioned, but he shouldn't be a best 22 player at age 38 with our list where it is. Rebuilding. He should be a depth player that we use at various points over the season to rest young kids against bigger teams and when we have injuries to senior players.

Let's have a closer look at the players you've listed.

Greaves will be best 22 despite Burgoyne being in the side, he's not being held out by him. CJ is still a rookie pick that has serious concerns about the way he plays the game, what he showed in the games he did play did not show him superseding Burgoyne. Finn wasn't close, Hanrahan has arguably had more time than he deserves on the list and Howe was injured.

You start 2021 with Burgoyne on the field, I'm not saying that he stays in if his output continues to drop, and a kid shows solid form in the seconds. I'm just saying that it's better to have a solid, experienced head in the side as opposed to a speculative pick who hasn't shown enough to be selected yet purely for the sake of youth.

 

[TylerDurden]

Let's have a closer look at the players you've listed.

Greaves will be best 22 despite Burgoyne being in the side, he's not being held out by him. CJ is still a rookie pick that has serious concerns about the way he plays the game, what he showed in the games he did play did not show him superseding Burgoyne. Finn wasn't close, Hanrahan has arguably had more time than he deserves on the list and Howe was injured.

You start 2021 with Burgoyne on the field, I'm not saying that he stays in if his output continues to drop, and a kid shows solid form in the seconds. I'm just saying that it's better to have a solid, experienced head in the side as opposed to a speculative pick who hasn't shown enough to be selected yet purely for the sake of youth.

With the amount of experience lost, Shaun will play more games than first thought this year.

 

[KermitJagger]

With the amount of experience lost, Shaun will play more games than first thought this year.

For sure, and there's also the point that he's so versatile that he isn't really holding too many players out. It's still of benefit to have him occupy the last bench spot purely because he can go forward, back or midfield with minimal preparation.

 

[KermitJagger]

Yeah especially when 3 non highlighted players are potentially not good enough irrespective of age in Lewis, TOB and Hanrahan.

I think you're definitely right on Hanrahan, potentially TOB though I feel he's in the side for other reasons.

Lewis though, at least pre recent shoulder reconstruction, had a season where he showed as much as any current young key forward in his age bracket. This is a comparison of career best seasons amongst them:

	Gm	Disposals	Marks	Contested Marks	Marks i50	Goals	Behinds	Score Involvements	Tackles	Frees For	Goal Assists
Lewis	12	11.5	4.7	2.2	2.5	1.7	1.2	5.2	1.6	1.2	0.6
Curnow	20	13.8	6.2	1.9	1.9	1.7	1	5	2.1	1.6	0.2
Hipwood	22	10.6	4.2	0.8	1.9	1.7	1.2	5	1.1	1.1	0.6
McKay	13	8.1	4.4	1.7	2.5	1.6	1.1	4.8	1.5	1.1	0.1
Weideman	13	7.7	3.1	1.3	1.9	1.5	0.6	3.6	0.5	0.5	0.4
Larkey	17	9.2	3.7	1.4	1.4	1.5	0.5	4.5	1	1.2	0.3
B King	17	7.1	2.8	0.9	1.8	1.5	1.2	4.2	0.4	0.6	0.1
Naughton	23	10.9	5.7	2.3	2	1.4	1.2	5.8	1.8	1.1	0.5
M King	18	7.6	3.2	1.7	1.7	1.2	1.1	3.8	1.2	0.7	0.3
E Himmelberg	7	9.6	3.4	0.6	1.2	1.1	0.6	4.1	3.3	1	0.3

 

[hawkdork83]

Let's have a closer look at the players you've listed.

Greaves will be best 22 despite Burgoyne being in the side, he's not being held out by him. CJ is still a rookie pick that has serious concerns about the way he plays the game, what he showed in the games he did play did not show him superseding Burgoyne. Finn wasn't close, Hanrahan has arguably had more time than he deserves on the list and Howe was injured.

You start 2021 with Burgoyne on the field, I'm not saying that he stays in if his output continues to drop, and a kid shows solid form in the seconds. I'm just saying that it's better to have a solid, experienced head in the side as opposed to a speculative pick who hasn't shown enough to be selected yet purely for the sake of youth.

What is your best 22? From that, you can look at the players left out that could play HF/Mid/HB. As I said previously, I don't think that the majority of players that would be left out are 'speculative'. I'm really keen to see Moore play the high half forward role, and I think we need to see if Worpel, Mitchell and O'Meara can be effective in other areas at times given how one dimensional our midfield has been.

I also think that looking at our best 22, we will have experience in all areas of the ground. Bruest and Wingard forward. Midfield obviously. McEvoy, Impey and Hartigan back. Not discounting Hardwick. Or Scrimshaw, who could be set to explode in his third year playing half-back with us. Frost has played over 100 games of AFL.

If he plays a majority of games this year I hope that his form is much better than 2020.

 

[Wingnut19]

Cousins for me. My personal opinion, but I like him better then JOM and Mitchell. Mitchell is banged up, horrible disposal and JOM is very average. By the end of year Cousins will be second best mid behind Worpel.

 

[HAWKSBESTEVA]

Cousins for me. My personal opinion, but I like him better then JOM and Mitchell. Mitchell is banged up, horrible disposal and JOM is very average. By the end of year Cousins will be second best mid behind Worpel.

I am a fan of cousins but it won’t happen. He will never be better then JOM or Mitchell.

 

[Wingnut19]

I am a fan of cousins but it won’t happen. He will never be better then JOM or Mitchell.

whoops I meant to put this in the most improved thread. Yeah I know not many will agree, I was just super disappointed with both last year and really excited with what I saw with Cousins.