Opinion Hypothetical 2021 Best 22

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hawkdork83

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If not for the soft-cap, I don't think Silk would be still on our list to be honest. I think it's a pretty nifty way to get an extra coach and I suspect that he might play a handful of games against mature, contending, teams and with injuries to senior players. Mitchell being out round 1 might mean that he plays.

Lot's of people are hyper-sensitive to any talk of Silk not being in the 22. But his form was pretty average last year. Saying this doesn't make someone 'hate' him. What hawk fan could.

I would suggest having a go at our best 22, sans Gunston and Sicily for now, and see what type of players you are leaving out. I think we have blokes like Moore that needs to get first go at high half forward. Or Greaves if you want a 7th defender. Or Cousins if you want an extra midfielder.

One of Hanrahan/Nash/Brockman/Morris is going to need to play as a pressure forward you would think.

Have we all given up on Howe and Morrison who play as utilities? Big year for them if they are going to make it or not. Seems a waste of games into them not to explore it a little further. Not mentioning players like Downie and Grainger-Barras who I've not seen yet, but according to Sam Mitchell are having really impressive pre-seasons so far.

We will have plenty of experience across all lines week to week.
 
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derp de derp

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Based on previous years round 1 teams being heavy on experience I somewhat expect it looking something like

Hardwick Hartigan Frost
Scrimshaw McEvoy Impey
Phillips Shiels Day
Wingard O’Brien Howe
Hanrahan Lewis Bruest

Ceglar O’Meara Worpel

Burgoyne Nash Moore Cousins


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Judd2Sewell

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Not sure why this convo keeps getting revived, but you don't replace a player until there's an obvious replacement. At the moment, Burgoyne can offer enough in a lot of positions which makes him a far better prospect to have in the best 22 than a kid who isn't at the level yet. Even at his age, he can be thrown as an on-field coach in pretty much every line on the ground. He's not holding anyone out yet.

If it gets into the season and he's not playing well, fine - drop him for someone in the seconds who is showing solid form, but there's no way you start Rd 1 with Silk playing in the twos for a kid with no exposed form at senior level.
Who do you think will take over that Burgoyne role? Probably Impey, especially when Sicily comes back into the side next year.

TBH I can't see him playing in the backline anymore, he will have to play HFF or deep forward.
 

rogiebear93

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Who do you think will take over that Burgoyne role? Probably Impey, especially when Sicily comes back into the side next year.

TBH I can't see him playing in the backline anymore, he will have to play HFF or deep forward.
I don't think it's a role for role thing. It's like the prospect of replacing Hodge or Roughy, you can't really do it. They offer too much versatility on every line.

I'd say that Greaves, with development, is a guy who can play a Burgoyne defensive role of being reliable and accountable. Impey can offer the impactful rebound, Chad can offer the inside (break-glass) play and impact up forward.

That said, Impey, Wings and Greaves are all still relatively new to our club and they can't really take the leadership role yet.
 

Blackhawk42

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Despite all the pre-season optimism that looks like a pretty weak side, particularly the spine - would need a lot to go right for us to kick a winning score each week.

Our mids are going to need to dominate to give us a chance (noting they really struggled last year).

Having Hartigan, BB, Hardwick and greaves in backline also makes us pretty slow with a lot riding on Impey and scrim to get rebound going.
Frost is the quickest of the lot in that defence but you forgot to mention him.

I actually think it's actually a fairly balanced defensive line with a nice mix of age and sizes. However the lack of a genuine A grader could be glaring against particular sides. Thankfully DGB is here to save the day for the next decade.
 

Judd2Sewell

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I don't think it's a role for role thing. It's like the prospect of replacing Hodge or Roughy, you can't really do it. They offer too much versatility on every line.

I'd say that Greaves, with development, is a guy who can play a Burgoyne defensive role of being reliable and accountable. Impey can offer the impactful rebound, Chad can offer the inside (break-glass) play and impact up forward.

That said, Impey, Wings and Greaves are all still relatively new to our club and they can't really take the leadership role yet.
Fair points, they can cover by committee. I meant more in a general sense, as in someone who can be thrown around the field plugging holes where needed. Which is why I think Impey could be that guy, or Day eventually.

Ideally we see Winger has predominantly a midfielder who pushes/rests forward, and Greaves as that reliable backman so compliment Scrimshaw, Hardwick, Sicily and the talls. Greaves development is a godsend as I think it means we can release Day. Others like TD have pointed out that he could play a Gunston role high HFF role, which would be interesting to see.

I know my opinion on the Burgoyne situation won't become reality, and I know he will likely play until his legs literally drop off. But I'm just excited to see what the next generation of talent can bring to the table and want to see them in the side.
 

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Who do you think will take over that Burgoyne role? Probably Impey, especially when Sicily comes back into the side next year.

TBH I can't see him playing in the backline anymore, he will have to play HFF or deep forward.
Burgers is pretty unique in that he can play in all three areas of the ground. Sam Mitchell made mention in one of the videos that Burgers will play both back and forward this year and that Impey might oo, but Jars will start and probably play most of the year down back.
 

Judd2Sewell

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Burgers is pretty unique in that he can play in all three areas of the ground. Sam Mitchell made mention in one of the videos that Burgers will play both back and forward this year and that Impey might oo, but Jars will start and probably play most of the year down back.
I think Impey will love this new on-the-mark rule. I expect he will play on almost all the time.
 

rogiebear93

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Fair points, they can cover by committee. I meant more in a general sense, as in someone who can be thrown around the field plugging holes where needed. Which is why I think Impey could be that guy, or Day eventually.

Ideally we see Winger has predominantly a midfielder who pushes/rests forward, and Greaves as that reliable backman so compliment Scrimshaw, Hardwick, Sicily and the talls. Greaves development is a godsend as I think it means we can release Day. Others like TD have pointed out that he could play a Gunston role high HFF role, which would be interesting to see.

I know my opinion on the Burgoyne situation won't become reality, and I know he will likely play until his legs literally drop off. But I'm just excited to see what the next generation of talent can bring to the table and want to see them in the side.
I think we'd be looking at Day being that sort of player, but it's not a realistic proposition yet.

I'm also not saying that I'm not excited about the next generation of talent, I'm just being realistic about the player who would replace Burgoyne if he was left out of the side this year.

Our good prospects and early picks will play even with Burgoyne in the 22, so that's not an issue. For what's left, a large percentage of draftees even from the late second round on will never play an AFL game - and less would play a season equal to Burgoyne even at 39 years old. He's on the list, keep him while he's still playing solid footy and offering leadership. There'll be plenty of post-Burgoyne years.
 

hawkdork83

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I think we'd be looking at Day being that sort of player, but it's not a realistic proposition yet.

I'm also not saying that I'm not excited about the next generation of talent, I'm just being realistic about the player who would replace Burgoyne if he was left out of the side this year.

Our good prospects and early picks will play even with Burgoyne in the 22, so that's not an issue. For what's left, a large percentage of draftees even from the late second round on will never play an AFL game - and less would play a season equal to Burgoyne even at 39 years old. He's on the list, keep him while he's still playing solid footy and offering leadership. There'll be plenty of post-Burgoyne years.
What is your best 22? Excluding Gunston and Sicily.
 

RobHawk

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Based on previous years round 1 teams being heavy on experience I somewhat expect it looking something like

Hardwick Hartigan Frost
Scrimshaw McEvoy Impey
Phillips Shiels Day
Wingard O’Brien Howe
Hanrahan Lewis Bruest

Ceglar O’Meara Worpel

Burgoyne Nash Moore Cousins


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Not a bad team but there might be one player a bit agreaved with that line up.
 

rogiebear93

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What is your best 22? Excluding Gunston and Sicily.
I think it hinges on scratch match and pre-season performance. Based on established positions and end of 2020 form, I'd say this looks the most reasonable.

FB: Frost, Hartigan, Hardwick
HB: Impey, McEvoy, Scrimshaw
C: Shiels, Mitchell, Phillips
HF: Moore, O'Brien, Wingard
FF: Burgoyne, Lewis, Breust

R: Ceglar, O'Meara, Worpel

I: DGB, Day, Cousins, Morris

Pending performances and team makeup, I think Morrison and Cousins could be interchangeable. Lewis gets the FF spot because of established form ahead of Jeka and Kosi, but that's definitely not certain - especially based on pre-season reports.

Morris, Brockman and Hanrahan are interchangeable again depending on form. I've chosen Morris on the bench to begin with because I think he deserves the chance ahead of Hanrahan who has had his time at this point, Brockman based on training reports is a challenger but we don't know until we see him in a proper format.

Despite Day being on the bench I feel he plays more than quite a few on this list. That being said, modern line-ups have little bearing on the way that the team actually lines up so it doesn't mean much.

Nash is an interesting one who seems to be training well but he's not really in direct competition with one player, so I've omitted him. It's a wait and see.
 

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Stratton24

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St Kilda? They are laughing at us right now.

Melbourne were Melbourne for years because they were continuously poorly coached, had a crap culture on/off the field and didn't have any real leadership on the field.

Now if playing a 38 year old Burgoyne is the only thing holding us back from ending up like St Kilda or Melbourne, then we are already in too much trouble.

I believe that JOM, Big Boy, Worpel, Clarkson and the coaching group, etc, can provide enough leadership and intangibles that will cover for Burgoyne not playing in place of one of our future long-term players.
Have the Saints released a 2020 season highlights DVD yet?
 

hawkdork83

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I think it hinges on scratch match and pre-season performance. Based on established positions and end of 2020 form, I'd say this looks the most reasonable.

FB: Frost, Hartigan, Hardwick
HB:
Impey, McEvoy, Scrimshaw
C: Shiels, Mitchell,
Phillips
HF:
Moore, O'Brien, Wingard
FF:
Burgoyne, Lewis, Breust

R: Ceglar,
O'Meara, Worpel

I:
DGB, Day, Cousins, Morris
I've put in bold those I think will play most games, or would be likely ahead of Silk in terms of selection. Cousins was as good as any player in the last six games of 2020 and by all reports he is having a great pre-season. It's likely we are committed to Ceglar rucking.

Lewis might be speculative, but either way, neither him or O'Brien will be competing with Silk.

The point I guess I am making is that we might have four spots, without injury, that are up for grabs. Three if you have Silk playing often. It's not a lot, and playing Silk in the forward pocket doesn't' solve who will make it as the pressure forward we desperately need. I would love that position to be worked through Brockman, Nash, Hanrahan and Morris. Mitchell spoke glowingly on Brockman and it is a position in recent years we have seen first year players step straight into, at other clubs.

I also think Greaves would be stiff to miss round 1, and we might even see Downie early in the year such was the manner Sam Mitchell spoke of him.

Morrison has his detractors, but at 22 are we better off with him playing that utility role or Silk? Things can start to click for players at that age and it just seems like a waste of development to block him with a 38 year old. Same with Howe, are we ready to give up on him at 25?

I think we have plenty of players we need to see if they can make the level, that aren't as speculative as some think on here. I also think we have experience across the ground.
 
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Roger Rogerson

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Based on previous years round 1 teams being heavy on experience I somewhat expect it looking something like

Hardwick Hartigan Frost
Scrimshaw McEvoy Impey
Phillips Shiels Day
Wingard O’Brien Howe
Hanrahan Lewis Bruest

Ceglar O’Meara Worpel

Burgoyne Nash Moore Cousins


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Greaves is in the round 1 side.
 

rogiebear93

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I've put in bold those I think will play most games, or would be likely ahead of Silk in terms of selection. Cousins was as good as any player in the last six games of 2020 and by all reports he is having a great pre-season. It's likely we are committed to Ceglar rucking.

Lewis might be speculative, but either way, neither him or O'Brien will be competing with Silk.

The point I guess I am making is that we might have four spots, without injury, that are up for grabs. Three if you have Silk playing often. It's not a lot, and playing Silk in the forward pocket doesn't' solve who will make it as the pressure forward we desperately need. I would love that position to be worked through Brockman, Nash, Hanrahan and Morris. Mitchell spoke glowingly on Brockman and it is a position in recent years we have seen first year players step straight into, at other clubs.

I also think Greaves would be stiff to miss round 1, and we might even see Downie early in the year such was the manner Sam Mitchell spoke of him.

Morrison has his detractors, but at 22 are we better off with him playing that utility role or Silk? Things can start to click for players at that age and it just seems like a waste of development to block him with a 38 year old. Same with Howe, are we ready to give up on him at 25?

I think we have plenty of players we need to see if they can make the level, that aren't as speculative as some think on here. I also think we have experience across the ground.
Yeah I'd actually err on the side of Greaves than one of the bench players on second thoughts. Perhaps he makes it in ahead of Morris at this point depending on what we want to see from our F50.

For the other questions, I think you start with Silk and judge off his performances. He's replaceable if they dip, he stays in if they don't. Like I said there'll be plenty more years for post Silk development.

You asked for my best 22 and I gave you what I think rolls out Rd 1 (Mitchell tentative), the only change I'd make from what you said is Greaves in Morris out maybe. You start 22 with what you know and make changes from there.
 

darthmann

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there's been plenty of players that have developed in the VFL/lower leagues too, it's not as if you need consistent exposure play AFL to become a top-level player

off our recent list Breust, Puopolo, Greaves (pending), Hardwick, Breust, Sicily etc. all spend significant time in the reserves and once they were ready became pretty permanent fixtures. 2020 was an obvious exception but it's not as if they were just languishing in the VFL and then went onto have fantastic careers elsewhere because we didn't give them enough game-time

a few games every now and then to give rookies a taste may be what's important but it's not like Burgoyne's gonna play 22 games next year anyway. Hopefully he'll get pushed out by a newcomer and contributes off-field in 2021 and for many years to come
 

Blackhawk42

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Round 1 without T.Mitchell

B. Hardwick Hartigan Greaves
HB. Scrimshaw McEvoy Impey
C: Phillips Worpel Shiels
HF: Moore TOB Burgoyne
F. Breust Lewis Nash
R. Ceglar O'Meara Wingard

IC: Day Frost Cousins DGB



I want Wingard in the middle to start the season.
I want Moore to be shown the faith.
I want a Denver debut.
I want to give Nash one more chance to be the biggest small pressure forward in the competition.

I don't really want but can envision Big Boy starting down back to kick off his captaincy as the general. Ceglar to the pine, Big Boy to the ruck and Frost to CHB would be the rotation i'd roll with.

Exciting to see some youngsters continue their development and some pretty fun times ahead considering our 3 best players aren't part of this side.
 

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