Opinion Hypothetical 2021 Best 22

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H2F

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Hang on, 3 posts so you said it was the worst list in 15 years, now it's the leadership at fault?

The forwardline performs terribly, because we give them no chance to succeed.

A 26yr old Buddy could perform under these conditions. Jeremy Cameron probs could, to a lesser extent. Cyril probs could & Rory Lobb the other.

I can't think of another forward in the last decade that could perform well the way we bring the ball into the forwardline - given that - I don't hate the forwards, it simply isn't their fault alone.

Can't take a mark? Why not kick it to their advantage?

Can't apply pressure? Because we're terribly outnumbered at the fall of the ball & the opposition frequently marks on the intercept.

You want Hanrahan in there, yet you bemoan the state of the list?
I’ll play nice once and then happy to have at it if you really want to.

Lewis cannot take a contested mark. Maybe when he matures but not now.

Remember the defensive pressure of Cyril, Poppy and even Buddy? Where is that? If you think I’m being Hawk nostalgic look at Richmond’s version.

Burgoyne cannot bend over anymore.

JOM is our best mid and we don’t have any depth there.

Yet your argument ironically is about how we deliver it. Mate Jarman, Buckley and McLeod could kick it to that forward line and they’d still battle.

Also my point about Hanrahan is that he should have made it. But unlike our past leaders who would have tapped him on the shoulder the first time he squibbed it, much less let the poor kid fall out of favour his role models were not there for him.

You were the one that said, ‘I love that forwardline’. Not me.

No marking power, no defensive pressure, no energy and robbing our best mid.

it stinks
 

H2F

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So it's a coaching & culture issue?

I thought it was a list problem?


*& I agree, that was all great stuff... just don't know how it affects the 2021 Best 22 thread unless you're suggesting we should get back to this kinda stuff - which will be tough amongst international travel restrictions & budgeting
Let’s start with these. Took them a while back when wandering around my beloved club.
 

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H2F

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Our team stinks as a whole, hence the results we have achieved over the last few years. It's what we have to deal with.
Yep but we should have retired Burgoyne abs drafted a kid. And no more accepting half arse efforts. Regardless of the two high picks of Wingard plays like he did many weeks this year again, send him to Box Hill indefinitely.
 

Brant

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Let’s start with these. Took them a while back when wandering around my beloved club.
How many goals would those pics kick if they lined up in our forwardline?

Yes - I've seen many better performing Hawthorn outfits in the last 40-odd years, but few of those dudes would assist the 2021 Best 22.

What would assist the side in 2021 is a very different plan, very different execution & some luck.

We have the list to Be so much better than 2020 suggests. Of course it won't be 2012/15 special, but maybe 3-5 teams in 150 years have been that good.
 
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HODGEYROAD

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H2F I remember a couple of years ago you were rather bullish about our chances of Premiership glory in the not to distant future. What in your opinion has gone drastically wrong from that point ?
 

Blackhawk42

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That 4th place finish in 2018 ended up being the worst thing that could have happened to us. As a result Clarko overrated our list, traded Burton and our chances at nabbing high end talent in the super draft for Wingard, and we've never been the same.

It looks as though we are now correcting it which is exciting. However it's 2 years later than it should be and we are coming from further back.
 

rogiebear93

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Yep but we should have retired Burgoyne abs drafted a kid. And no more accepting half arse efforts. Regardless of the two high picks of Wingard plays like he did many weeks this year again, send him to Box Hill indefinitely.
I don't understand this. Burgoyne is plug and play anywhere on the field, good from a development POV for our players and is essential on-field leadership given the exodus in experience we've had over the past few years.

There's no kid we could have drafted with what we have available that will be able to do what he can do for 2021.
 

Rocket72

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That 4th place finish in 2018 ended up being the worst thing that could have happened to us. As a result Clarko overrated our list, traded Burton and our chances at nabbing high end talent in the super draft for Wingard, and we've never been the same.

It looks as though we are now correcting it which is exciting. However it's 2 years later than it should be and we are coming from further back.
Spot on. And because of this it's time for a full list rebuild ala 2005. Trade out some stars with genuine value so we load up over 2-3 years in the draft. Fellow supporters, prepare yourself for a few winless years or a lot of 3-4 win years. Either way, one of those options is coming.
 

Bardo State

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Pessimists in here are going to feel real silly when Lewis and Patton combine for 75 goals next year and we land Max Gawn as a free agent
 

Pessimistic

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That 4th place finish in 2018 ended up being the worst thing that could have happened to us. As a result Clarko overrated our list, traded Burton and our chances at nabbing high end talent in the super draft for Wingard, and we've never been the same.

It looks as though we are now correcting it which is exciting. However it's 2 years later than it should be and we are coming from further back.
It was more the high finish which didn't gave us the picks to draft high end talent than any over rating of the list. Our pick came in at 18, where Port drafted Duursma. The Gold cam at pick 6 and earlier, we would have needed to have finished 13th with half the wins. The two oldest top 10 B&F players were Smith and Mcevoy - Bruest Gunston Stratton next. It did seem pretty much on track for a 'high point' in 2022.

While our trading for Wingard did involve pick 5 or 6, there was no way we get close unless its involved in that trading 18 did land a pretty good player for port, but theones around him, not so flash. no guarantees hed be available to us by then

Im reminded here that pick 6 was in Melbournes hands, but they sent it to the Gold Coast for Steven May.

So the problem is we dont have a great list, but they generally over achieve. we can accept that, but then posters cant say the club has poor culture (2020 excluded)

1606087603891.png
 

Rocket72

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Pessimists in here are going to feel real silly when Lewis and Patton combine for 75 goals next year and we land Max Gawn as a free agent
I'm an optimist so I was slow to come to this view and even then I don't share it often in here, but yea, we're stuck in that perpetual bottom 8 finish bracket. We will find it hard to attract players and we will have a few high draft picks but not enough. I can't complain I've been a Hawks member for more than 30 years and I have had fun and received amazing 'value' (not that I look at it that way). Bringing it back to topic, I think our 'best 22' needs to include a bunch of players we fast-track, like Jeka for instance. He might be great, but we can't afford to wait 3-5 years while he plays at Box Hill. Give youth some game time for 2 years and see if we have something or not.
 

darthmann

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I'm an optimist so I was slow to come to this view and even then I don't share it often in here, but yea, we're stuck in that perpetual bottom 8 finish bracket. We will find it hard to attract players and we will have a few high draft picks but not enough. I can't complain I've been a Hawks member for more than 30 years and I have had fun and received amazing 'value' (not that I look at it that way). Bringing it back to topic, I think our 'best 22' needs to include a bunch of players we fast-track, like Jeka for instance. He might be great, but we can't afford to wait 3-5 years while he plays at Box Hill. Give youth some game time for 2 years and see if we have something or not.
like it or not, this is not how the HFC does development

we will only play players when they are seen as ready
 

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Rocket72

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like it or not, this is not how the HFC does development

we will only play players when they are seen as ready
You are right traditionally we don't. We did it in 2005. There was quite a bit of support put around some players to ensure that part of their development wasn't losing and adapting their mentality around that. It was under the same coach as we have now too, so I think there is some hope we might do it again.
 

darthmann

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You are right traditionally we don't. We did it in 2005. There was quite a bit of support put around some players to ensure that part of their development wasn't losing and adapting their mentality around that. It was under the same coach as we have now too, so I think there is some hope we might do it again.
yeah we did it with a couple of blokes around 07-11 too but since then have steered clear of it

im not sure the club thinks our position is as dire as it was in terms of 2005 so i don't think we'll backflip to such extremities but if some of our young blokes don't develop this year while finishing bottom 4 again that might change

will be interested to see our strategy for sure
 

Gralin

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You are right traditionally we don't. We did it in 2005. There was quite a bit of support put around some players to ensure that part of their development wasn't losing and adapting their mentality around that. It was under the same coach as we have now too, so I think there is some hope we might do it again.
Worpel played in his first season, regular by his second
Day looks like he made it to regular in his first
Hardwick, played in his first year, regular second year
Howe played early
Morrison played early
Morris this year played early
Finn got a look
Cousins got a look early
Lewis as well
Moore got a look early

We play kids we want to give a taste to or think are ready for a shot at stepping up
We had a period where the team was hard to break into from 2011-2016 because we had a very strong core that stayed on the park
We had some absolute champs that kids were stuck behind, of course they didn't see much action, that's the price you pay when you win 3 in a row though

We are still coming to terms with that age/experience gap in our list from competing and trying to stay up post competing.

This idea we don't give kids a chance though, yeah I'm not seeing that.

We gave debuts to 5 of our kids this year
115 out of 374 available games this year went to blokes who finished the season under 25

So 30% of games
 

Rocket72

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Worpel played in his first season, regular by his second
Day looks like he made it to regular in his first
Hardwick, played in his first year, regular second year
Howe played early
Morrison played early
Morris this year played early
Finn got a look
Cousins got a look early
Lewis as well
Moore got a look early

We play kids we want to give a taste to or think are ready for a shot at stepping up
We had a period where the team was hard to break into from 2011-2016 because we had a very strong core that stayed on the park
We had some absolute champs that kids were stuck behind, of course they didn't see much action, that's the price you pay when you win 3 in a row though

We are still coming to terms with that age/experience gap in our list from competing and trying to stay up post competing.

This idea we don't give kids a chance though, yeah I'm not seeing that.

We gave debuts to 5 of our kids this year
115 out of 374 available games this year went to blokes who finished the season under 25

So 30% of games
Good points!
 

darthmann

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Worpel played in his first season, regular by his second
Day looks like he made it to regular in his first
Hardwick, played in his first year, regular second year
Howe played early
Morrison played early
Morris this year played early
Finn got a look
Cousins got a look early
Lewis as well
Moore got a look early

We play kids we want to give a taste to or think are ready for a shot at stepping up
We had a period where the team was hard to break into from 2011-2016 because we had a very strong core that stayed on the park
We had some absolute champs that kids were stuck behind, of course they didn't see much action, that's the price you pay when you win 3 in a row though

We are still coming to terms with that age/experience gap in our list from competing and trying to stay up post competing.

This idea we don't give kids a chance though, yeah I'm not seeing that.

We gave debuts to 5 of our kids this year
115 out of 374 available games this year went to blokes who finished the season under 25

So 30% of games
yeah i agree, my point was that we don't throw players under the bus like a few clubs do, particularly with early picks/KPP

we'll give em a game when we think they're ready or as you say, to give them a taste, but we won't force their development in the 1s in a 'trial by fire' type situation
 

savagelunchbox

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You love that forwardline?

Lewis is young but jury is out whether he will even make it.

Burgoyne should have retired and that’s with total love, it’s embarrassing.

JOM at half forward means our ridiculously shallow midfield is now worse.

Havent logged on in ages and am bemused at this stuff. It’s like reading the Richmond board in the Wallace era.
We have the worst forward line in the league and it's not even close.
After Gunston and Bruest, who kicks our goals?

Can't rely on TOB. He's good for about a goal a game. Forever a potential.
...Oh, but he does bring the ball to ground which is great... for the opposition to transition it. We have no one at ground to apply the sufficient forward pressure to create goals. This is ignoring that he doesn't intentionally bring it to ground.

Lewis is following a similar trajectory to XEllis. Had a good finish to what will be our best year surrounded by some rather under-performing years and people tie that into him being a factor so the "he just needs one good preseason" line will get rolled out time and time again to justify his existence. I keep saying there's a reason he was picked in the late 70's even though he's a tall forward who can kick goals on the lead. Useless above his head, useless in a pack, doesn't think instinctively and looses focus far too often.

Can't rely on Patton. Other than being less mobile than a dinosaur, he's made of tissue paper.

Can't rely on Wingard. When he chooses to show up, the way our forward line is coached to function, it doesn't play to his strengths.

As for the rest of our list, it's vanilla. It's like opening an ice cream store and only offering French Vanilla, vanilla bean and regular vanilla as your flavours; it'd go out of business quicker than a Trump business.
It doesn't really matter if you put a JOM in the forward line, half back line or midfield; he's only going to be replaced by another non-impactual player.
It doesn't really matter if you put a Scrimshaw in the midfield because he'll only be replaced by a non-impactual player where he's not.
It doesn't really matter where you play Burgoyne, not only is his body cooked to the point of him being charred ashes, our list is so bereft of leadership, if he plays forward, our defense is lacking, and is he plays back, our forwards are lacking.
And so on.
 

VandoHawk

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Does Hollands/Thilthorpe/DGB/Phillips get into the best 22 for Round 1 next year?
Phillips would start Round 1. Hollands would probably be like Day - come in round 5/6 and be hard to displace. I think we'd give DGB and Thilthorpe a taste but its more likely they spend a decent chunk of time improving their craft at Box Hill. Given the state of our list I think all of them would be considered on potential alone.
 

rogiebear93

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We have the worst forward line in the league and it's not even close.
After Gunston and Bruest, who kicks our goals?

Can't rely on TOB. He's good for about a goal a game. Forever a potential.
...Oh, but he does bring the ball to ground which is great... for the opposition to transition it. We have no one at ground to apply the sufficient forward pressure to create goals. This is ignoring that he doesn't intentionally bring it to ground.

Lewis is following a similar trajectory to XEllis. Had a good finish to what will be our best year surrounded by some rather under-performing years and people tie that into him being a factor so the "he just needs one good preseason" line will get rolled out time and time again to justify his existence. I keep saying there's a reason he was picked in the late 70's even though he's a tall forward who can kick goals on the lead. Useless above his head, useless in a pack, doesn't think instinctively and looses focus far too often.

Can't rely on Patton. Other than being less mobile than a dinosaur, he's made of tissue paper.

Can't rely on Wingard. When he chooses to show up, the way our forward line is coached to function, it doesn't play to his strengths.

As for the rest of our list, it's vanilla. It's like opening an ice cream store and only offering French Vanilla, vanilla bean and regular vanilla as your flavours; it'd go out of business quicker than a Trump business.
It doesn't really matter if you put a JOM in the forward line, half back line or midfield; he's only going to be replaced by another non-impactual player.
It doesn't really matter if you put a Scrimshaw in the midfield because he'll only be replaced by a non-impactual player where he's not.
It doesn't really matter where you play Burgoyne, not only is his body cooked to the point of him being charred ashes, our list is so bereft of leadership, if he plays forward, our defense is lacking, and is he plays back, our forwards are lacking.
And so on.
The worst forward line in the league? Jesus Christ, that's one of the most dramatic comments I've ever heard. Especially when you follow it up with "After these two AA calibre forwards that every other club in the league would love to have, who kicks our goals?"
 

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