Analysis If Dustin Martin wins a 4th Norm Smith medal and premiership will he be regarded as the greatest player of all time?

[Fadge]

I think he will be closely watched more so after this ridiculous thread was created.
For someone who is now in the GOAT discussion, he will have to produce some truly awe inspiring work over the next couple of years.

This is spot on.

Of course we will watch him more closely as a result of this discussion.

Richmond supporters have likely seen more of Martin than I have, and I'm very open to be proven wrong. I mean, maybe there are some things that I've missed that entitles him to be spoken about in the same discussion as the all-timers.

Conversely, I suggest Richmond supporters watch some other matches where their team isn't playing, in order to understand there are some pretty handy players that get around for other teams.

 

[Call Me Cake]

Jesus Christ Richmond fans just cannot accept that it's over, can they?

 

[Noidnadroj]

That one grand final was an outlier. He barely manages 10 contested possies his career.

Isaac Smith had 11 in last years grand final. We shall no longer call him an outsider if one game is all that makes up an entire career.

Martin is an opportunist in every sense of the word.
He certainly wouldn't be a guy you could depend on to get you goals if he was left one out in the forward line for a batch of matches. He needs to floating around the ground waiting on Cotchin & Prestia to release him the ball.

It’s not hard to check basic stats before you comment. He has got 10+ contested possessions in 139 games of his 269 game career = 52%. In finals it’s 10 of 16 games = 63%.

Do you have any more factually incorrect comments you’d like to make?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[My Tilly]

It’s not hard to check basic stats before you comment. He has got 10+ contested possessions in 139 games of his 269 game career = 52%. In finals it’s 10 of 16 games = 63%.

Do you have any more factually incorrect comments you’d like to make?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Yes, Martin averages 10 contested possessions per game over the course of his 269 game career. This is considered average AFL - News, Fixtures, Scores & Results - AFL.com.au
Not sure why this is even a debate because who cares right. What's wrong with being an opportunistic midfielder?

To go one step further, Martin has only managed 13 contested possessions (elite) or more in one single year of football. This illustrates my point, he's not exactly a full on inside midfielder. He drifts in and out and that is what has made him an excellent finisher.

Guys like Judd and Ablett were contested possession bulls. Fyfe likewise.

Martin should be able to play well into his 30's. He's not really been battered around like other midfielders have throughout their careers.

 

[Trav 20]

Martin's one wood (and only wood) is kicking goals at important times. And he does that arguably as well as anyone I've seen. There's no doubt he's a clutch player who's performed brilliantly in big moments. His finals record is superb.

But as far as best ever ? My God, I doubt I'd put him in the top 50 players I've seen. He kicks some very good goals, the odd great one, and that's about it. As a bona fide midfielder he's OK, but not a hell of a lot better. His shtick is finishing.

The media fawning over him has a lot to do with it. I'm certain the media fawn over players today far more than they did in decades gone. They've even convinced Richmond supporters he's some kind of freak of nature. It's called groupthink.

But I suspect it's mainly the younger supporters. Anyone over 50 and especially over 60 wouldn't regard Martin anywhere near the best.

 

[Greggy]

If Dusty wins a 4th Norm Smith all Richmond supporters will believe Dusty is the GOAT and nothing anyone can say will change that, and you’ll hear about it until the end of time or until the time you no longer frequent BigFooty. If you think you’ll change a subjective opinion with stats or arguments you’re very much mistaken.

I dare say most Richmond supporters believe he’s the GOAT now so good luck arguing he’s not if he wins a 4th Norm.

Dusty

Judd

GAJ

 

[Noidnadroj]

Yes, Martin averages 10 contested possessions per game over the course of his 269 game career. This is considered average AFL - News, Fixtures, Scores & Results - AFL.com.au
Not sure why this is even a debate because who cares right. What's wrong with being an opportunistic midfielder?

To go one step further, Martin has only managed 13 contested possessions (elite) or more in one single year of football. This illustrates my point, he's not exactly a full on inside midfielder. He drifts in and out and that is what has made him an excellent finisher.

Guys like Judd and Ablett were contested possession bulls. Fyfe likewise.

Martin should be able to play well into his 30's. He's not really been battered around like other midfielders have throughout their careers.

You said Martin has struggled to get 10 contested possessions a game in his career - I showed he has done it in more games than he hasn’t…. so then you revert to season averages to prove your point he has struggled to get 10 CP’s a game despite doing it 139 times.

Guess what …. Lance Franklin has struggled to kick 4 goals in his career…. he’s done it 135 times, but he only averaged over 4 once, in 2008. So this means he struggles to kick 4 goals, right?




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[My Tilly]

You said Martin has struggled to get 10 contested possessions a game in his career -

You quote me where I said that?

I know I have said he's barely averaged 10 contested possessions his career. He's currently sitting on precisely 10 as we speak. This will inevitably decline further as he ages and spends less time in the middle.

The problem with you is you cherry pick data and construe it as fact.

It's as though you like to ignore his first 7 years in the league where he was barely in anyone's top 20-30 player lists.
I know he crept up on people in 2016 but still wouldn't even make the top 10 that year.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Martin's one wood (and only wood) is kicking goals at important times. And he does that arguably as well as anyone I've seen. There's no doubt he's a clutch player who's performed brilliantly in big moments. His finals record is superb.

But as far as best ever ? My God, I doubt I'd put him in the top 50 players I've seen. He kicks some very good goals, the odd great one, and that's about it. As a bona fide midfielder he's OK, but not a hell of a lot better. His shtick is finishing.

The media fawning over him has a lot to do with it. I'm certain the media fawn over players today far more than they did in decades gone. They've even convinced Richmond supporters he's some kind of freak of nature. It's called groupthink.

But I suspect it's mainly the younger supporters. Anyone over 50 and especially over 60 wouldn't regard Martin anywhere near the best.

Skilton. Tuddenham. Diesel. Sheahan. Robbo. Carey and Buckley are about 50yo. But their ‘opinion’ is wrong as well as it differs from yours, right?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Skilton. Tuddenham. Diesel. Sheahan. Robbo. Carey and Buckley are about 50yo. But their ‘opinion’ is wrong as well as it differs from yours, right?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

I'd suggest out of that list only Bucks still has his marbles.

 

[Noidnadroj]

You quote me where I said that?

I know I have said he's barely averaged 10 contested possessions his career. He's currently sitting on precisely 10 as we speak. This will inevitably decline further as he ages and spends less time in the middle.

The problem with you is you cherry pick data and construe it as fact.

It's as though you like to ignore his first 7 years in the league where he was barely in anyone's top 20-30 player lists.
I know he crept up on people in 2016 but still wouldn't even make the top 10 that year.

I don’t care where people rate him. I don’t even have him as GOAT.

Averaging 10 contested possessions for the mid-fwd position he plays is elite. I know there are the full-time contested bulls who average more, but as an example :

Full-time mids:
Pendlebury averages 10.6
Bont 10.8
Boak 10.3
Josh Kelly 8.8
Macrae 10.9
Merrett 9.0
Dunkley 9.8

Andrew Brayshaw won the players MVP in 2022 with a CP season average of 9.0. And he’s not even a part-time fwd.

So let’s make sure people reading this are aware averaging 10 x CP for his mid-fwd role is elite.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

He’s wasn’t Bog in the 2017 GF. It was the fairy tale wank fest that got him that one.
He re signed with the club just before the finals and won the Brownlow. The media blow up was astronomical.
Houli was the best player on the field in the 2017 GF

The only Norm he deserved was the one against my mob.

I’ve just done a little research. Martin got 22 x contested possessions that game, kicked 2 x goals and had 2 x goal assists.

I looked up games played by Danger, Ablett, Judd, Swan and Fyfe in their career (it’s easy via afltables). There were a total of 15 times between them they had 20+ contested possessions and 4+ goals and goal assists in a game. On all 15 occasions they were awarded 3 x Brownlow votes. 15 out of 15. 2 of the 15 were in losses … still got 3 Brownlow votes.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[My Tilly]

I don’t care where people rate him. I don’t even have him as GOAT.

Averaging 10 contested possessions for the mid-fwd position he plays is elite. I know there are the full-time contested bulls who average more, but as an example :

Full-time mids:
Pendlebury averages 10.6
Bont 10.8
Boak 10.3
Josh Kelly 8.8
Macrae 10.9
Merrett 9.0
Dunkley 9.8

Andrew Brayshaw won the players MVP in 2022 with a CP season average of 9.0. And he’s not even a part-time fwd.

So let’s make sure people reading this are aware averaging 10 x CP for his mid-fwd role is elite.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

No one is ever going to label Merrett, Kelly, Dunkley, Boak as the greatest player of all time.
I doubt even young Brayshaw can get there by the time his career comes to a close.

Pendlebury's put up a brilliant career but he's probably not even going to crack Collingwood's top three all-time.
The Bont is a good one. Then again, he's been drifting in and out of the midfield for a while now.

The guys who are in the same discussion as Martin however, Dangerfield & Fyfe, look at their contested numbers by comparison.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

I’ve just done a little research. Martin got 22 x contested possessions that game, kicked 2 x goals and had 2 x goal assists.

Using that logic, TARANTO should have won Norm in 2019.

Three more contested possessions than anyone else, and in a LOSING side, quite an effort.

 

[Rich01]

This is spot on.

Of course we will watch him more closely as a result of this discussion.

I have no doubt you and the others that are obsessed with critiquing his performance on this thread will. Every week, some even every day, throughout the season. 1000 posts on the Dustin Martin topic before the end of the first month of the season proper? It sure is possible.

 

[Sttew]

Dusty

Judd

GAJ

Your graphics are misleading - Dusty hasn’t won 3 Brownlows, and Ablett & Judd have 2

 

[Noidnadroj]

No one is ever going to label Merrett, Kelly, Dunkley, Boak as the greatest player of all time.
I doubt even young Brayshaw can get there by the time his career comes to a close.

Pendlebury's put up a brilliant career but he's probably not even going to crack Collingwood's top three all-time.
The Bont is a good one. Then again, he's been drifting in and out of the midfield for a while now.

The guys who are in the same discussion as Martin however, Dangerfield & Fyfe, look at their contested numbers by comparison.

I absolutely agree, Martin is not a highly contested bull like Fyfe and Dangerfield… but he doesn’t play that role so the comparison with those guys is pretty pointless. And not saying any of the guys above are GOAT contenders … just illustrating the point that even against exclusive mids Martin’s contested numbers are comparable.

When playing a more exclusive midfield role in 2016 and 2017 Martin averaged 12.59 and 14.52 contested. So if he played that exclusive midfield role his entire career it’s pretty easy to see his average would be probably be around 13, not 10.

Martin averages 15.4 kicks to Fyfe’s 12.2 and Danger’s 12.6. And 1.1 goals to 0.8 and 1.0. This doesn’t diminish Fyfe or Danger, it just illustrates the different role they play. Danger and Fyfe are not overly creative with ball in hand and their skills are best used inside the contest.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

Using that logic, TARANTO should have won Norm in 2019.

Three more contested possessions than anyone else, and in a LOSING side, quite an effort.

Huh? The stat I gave was 20+ contested and 4+ goals & goal assists.

In the 2019 GF Taranto had 15 contested and zero goals & goal assists.

Your analogy is like me saying people who kick 14 goals in match get 3 x Brownlow votes, and you come back and say “why didn’t Billy Blogs who kicked 7 goals get BOG then?”.




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Trav 20]

Skilton. Tuddenham. Diesel. Sheahan. Robbo. Carey and Buckley are about 50yo. But their ‘opinion’ is wrong as well as it differs from yours, right?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

One can only assume they rate him as the greatest finals player in their lifetime and somehow that's been extrapolated to greatest player ever.

If you've got two working eyes and have watched footy since the 1970s it's easy to deduce that he's nowhere near the greatest player ever.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

But it wasn't about running back with the flight of the ball. Martin was actually closer to the ball drop than Gawn was, all he had to do was take two steps to get there to be the first there in prime position for the contest. But instead he literally ran 8 steps away from the contest to position himself for the spill of the ball, though when Gawn is there uncontested, there's generally no spill.

And Martin's not a small boy, he should be getting to more marking contests than he does.

This is quality.

Full time big footy poster Fadge deigning to give the greatest finals player of all time advice on how to play football in a practice match.

Unsurpassable cake taking exhibition.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

One can only assume they rate him as the greatest finals player in their lifetime and somehow that's been extrapolated to greatest player ever.

If you've got two working eyes and have watched footy since the 1970s it's easy to deduce that he's nowhere near the greatest player ever.

Ask Leigh Mathews Trav.

 

[Noidnadroj]

One can only assume they rate him as the greatest finals player in their lifetime and somehow that's been extrapolated to greatest player ever.

If you've got two working eyes and have watched footy since the 1970s it's easy to deduce that he's nowhere near the greatest player ever.

You’ve assumed wrong. That’s not what they said at all. But we’ve already established anyone with an opinion different to yours is wrong


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[STPer18]

If Dusty wins a 4th Norm Smith all Richmond supporters will believe Dusty is the GOAT and nothing anyone can say will change that, and you’ll hear about it until the end of time or until the time you no longer frequent BigFooty. If you think you’ll change a subjective opinion with stats or arguments you’re very much mistaken.

I dare say most Richmond supporters believe he’s the GOAT now so good luck arguing he’s not if he wins a 4th Norm.

Dusty

Judd

GAJ

So by this metric Hawthorn supporters should consider Luke Hodge with 4 & 2 the greatest of all time? Great player but he's not even Hawthorn's greatest.

 

[Noidnadroj]

One can only assume they rate him as the greatest finals player in their lifetime and somehow that's been extrapolated to greatest player ever.

If you've got two working eyes and have watched footy since the 1970s it's easy to deduce that he's nowhere near the greatest player ever.

Another one… called before his 2020 NS so it wasn’t ill-considered in the hype of his 3rd NS.

But I know … Daisy Pearce is young and knows nothing about footy, right (isn’t she a coach at the Premiers this year)…?? At some stage you might acknowledge other people with far greater credentials than you differ in their opinion.

AFLW superstar Daisy Pearce says Dustin Martin is the best player of all time

Is Dusty Martin the greatest of all time? This fellow star thinks so

www.foxsports.com.au

Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Trav 20]

Ask Leigh Mathews Trav.

What about ? That he doesn't mind the Dusty comparison compared to other players ? Or that Martin's 2017 from an awards perspective is probably one of the best seasons ever ?

Do you really think Matthews expects to be compared to a player like Carey or Ablett Snr or more-so a forward-mid like Martin, which is closest to the modern version of how Matthews played ?

Matthews was only ever comparing like with like.

You Richmond supporters don't do common sense, do you ?