If efficient was still a colt who would prefer to own him or haradasun

(Log in to remove this ad.)

sethlad

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 15, 2001
Posts
7,006
Likes
1,336
Location
melb
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Derby County FC
#2
From the same guy who correctly brought us:"Miss Finland couldnt win a Cox plate if she started now" comes his opinion on Efficient.
Once again,hard to argue with much of it.

www.justracing.com.au/index.php

Im not across Efficients female line but theres plenty of sons of Zabeel standing at the minute.
The big $$$ are in 2yo classics & theyre unlikely to produce those winners.

seth
 

Ron

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Sep 8, 2002
Posts
25,052
Likes
7,630
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
#3
I believe Efficient atm is almost equal with ES as the best horse in Australia.
Tomorrow wont be his ideal distance, but i still think he will win.
 

sethlad

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 15, 2001
Posts
7,006
Likes
1,336
Location
melb
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Derby County FC
#4
Seriously,how can you even compare them?
ES is the best horse in Australia,Efficient hasnt raced outside his own age.

seth
 

starz

Premiership Player
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Posts
4,680
Likes
1
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
#5
From the same guy who correctly brought us:"Miss Finland couldnt win a Cox plate if she started now" comes his opinion on Efficient.
Once again,hard to argue with much of it.

www.justracing.com.au/index.php
seth
Except when you scroll down the bottom you see a similar article written about Miss Andretti last week, only won by 2 lengths.
 

starz

Premiership Player
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Posts
4,680
Likes
1
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
#7
I would take Efficient easily, has the ability to win the big races Melbourne Cup & Cox Plate which are 2000m+.

The article says about efficients Derby win "he didn’t display a turn of foot"

Must have been watching a different race to the rest of us.
 

sethlad

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 15, 2001
Posts
7,006
Likes
1,336
Location
melb
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Derby County FC
#8
He believes he simply outstayed a bunch of non stayers.

He'll need a turn of foot to win over 1600 at Gp 1,even against 3yo's.
We'll see if he's truly got one in a few weeks.

seth
 

go fullta

Club Legend
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Posts
1,099
Likes
0
Location
victoria
AFL Club
Geelong
#9
haradasun because as a breeding propositon, he has a far better pedigree and he also performs better over a shorter journey.
as good as efficient may be, in the long run who wants to go to a zabeel stallion that has been winning group one events over 2500m. not many in my opinion!!!
 

Andrew_Leema

Rookie
Suspended
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Posts
24
Likes
0
AFL Club
Melbourne
#10
I would DEFENATLEY take efficient. Haradasun isnt that good and has a hype like no horse ive ever heard of. Its run twice at group company and failed. These arnt group 1 races there gr3 races. Wouldnt think twice about having effiecient. I ask you. Do you want to win Melbourne, Caulfueld and Cox plates or Group 2 races. Maybe the odd weak group 1 race.
 

Tim56

Premiership Player
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
Posts
3,195
Likes
6
Location
On the fine line between
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Melbourne
#11
I'm not mad on Haradasun as a stallion prospect. From a great family and obviously a talented horse, but it is very rare that a horse outperforms his sire at stud, and Fu Peg has been a dud.

On Efficient - who was the last Derby winner to be a success at stud?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

starz

Premiership Player
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Posts
4,680
Likes
1
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
#12
Prizemoney is a pretty fair indication, so far
Haradasun 7 races $200k
Efficient 7 races $1 million

Having said that, does anyone think Haradasun can run over 1600 metres?
Hit the line pretty hard on Saturday and looked to have plenty left.
 

Russ74

All Australian
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
635
Likes
0
Location
The Lake
AFL Club
Richmond
#13
I'm not mad on Haradasun as a stallion prospect. From a great family and obviously a talented horse, but it is very rare that a horse outperforms his sire at stud, and Fu Peg has been a dud.

On Efficient - who was the last Derby winner to be a success at stud?
Absolute garbage Timbo. How do you think the breed improves then champ? Correct though on Derby winners. Off the top of my head Arena, Blackfriars, Elvstroem have won it and been colts recently. First 2 pretty unremarkable although Arena shows promise considering the low quality of mares afforded too him and we shall wait and see on Elvis.
 
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Posts
422
Likes
0
Location
Im Around
AFL Club
Collingwood
#15
The big $$$ are in 2yo classics & theyre unlikely to produce those winners.

seth
Except theres no such thing as a 2yo classic. The classics are for 3yos.

On the original topic though, Efficient obviously. A group 1 winning son of Zabeel would be a far better stud prospect than a Listed winning son of Fusaichi Pegusus.
 

Tim56

Premiership Player
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
Posts
3,195
Likes
6
Location
On the fine line between
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Melbourne
#16
Absolute garbage Timbo. How do you think the breed improves then champ? Correct though on Derby winners. Off the top of my head Arena, Blackfriars, Elvstroem have won it and been colts recently. First 2 pretty unremarkable although Arena shows promise considering the low quality of mares afforded too him and we shall wait and see on Elvis.
Through culling poorly performing horses. Simply compare the amount of stallions at stud, and the number of mares they are covering, to that of 20 years ago. Obviously, occasionallyone comes out the blue and offers something completely new and different - Star Kingdom and Danehill did that and were the two most successful post WW2 sires. Nowadays though, the Star Kingdom line is almost unseen in Australian stallions (exceptions off the top of my head being Canny Lad and Show A Heart).

Obviously, there is the OCCASIONAL horse who will outperform his sire at stud, but by and large they won't, which is the point I made. Name me one sire who has had a number of sons outperform him at stud, at least in Australia? Redoute's Choice has been able to match Danehill at this stage of his career, but he is one of dozens of sons of Danehill at stud.
 

Punter_22

Senior List
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Posts
238
Likes
0
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Carlton
#17
Through culling poorly performing horses. Simply compare the amount of stallions at stud, and the number of mares they are covering, to that of 20 years ago. Obviously, occasionallyone comes out the blue and offers something completely new and different - Star Kingdom and Danehill did that and were the two most successful post WW2 sires. Nowadays though, the Star Kingdom line is almost unseen in Australian stallions (exceptions off the top of my head being Canny Lad and Show A Heart).

Obviously, there is the OCCASIONAL horse who will outperform his sire at stud, but by and large they won't, which is the point I made. Name me one sire who has had a number of sons outperform him at stud, at least in Australia? Redoute's Choice has been able to match Danehill at this stage of his career, but he is one of dozens of sons of Danehill at stud.
You mentioned one in that exact post. Show A Heart!! He was champion first season sire and if my memory serves me correctly Brave Warrior never was.

Just saw you said "a number of sons" so I retract that comment.
 

Punter_22

Senior List
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Posts
238
Likes
0
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Carlton
#18
Through culling poorly performing horses. Simply compare the amount of stallions at stud, and the number of mares they are covering, to that of 20 years ago. Obviously, occasionallyone comes out the blue and offers something completely new and different - Star Kingdom and Danehill did that and were the two most successful post WW2 sires. Nowadays though, the Star Kingdom line is almost unseen in Australian stallions (exceptions off the top of my head being Canny Lad and Show A Heart).

Obviously, there is the OCCASIONAL horse who will outperform his sire at stud, but by and large they won't, which is the point I made. Name me one sire who has had a number of sons outperform him at stud, at least in Australia? Redoute's Choice has been able to match Danehill at this stage of his career, but he is one of dozens of sons of Danehill at stud.

I am still going to have to disagree with a fair bit of what you have had to say Tim. By culling poorly performed horses is not the reason our racing continues to improve. It is because breeders have become more adventurous and taken risks on northern hemisphere stallions. The pool we take our stallions from is now much larger, so of course we have a better chance of producing top class horses. Also, these "OCCASIONAL" horses certainly improve the standard of our racing. It is hard for a stallion to have multiple sons out perform him at stud because if a stallion doesn't produce early in his career in the breeding barn, the quality of his mares and the number he is serving drop off and he is pushing ********** up hill then to have a son worthy of going to stud let alone two. But horses such as Show A Heart, General Nediym etc. have proved a son can out perform his sire at stud and in turn they allow our industry to continue to evolve and improve.
 

Russ74

All Australian
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
635
Likes
0
Location
The Lake
AFL Club
Richmond
#19
Through culling poorly performing horses. Simply compare the amount of stallions at stud, and the number of mares they are covering, to that of 20 years ago. Obviously, occasionallyone comes out the blue and offers something completely new and different - Star Kingdom and Danehill did that and were the two most successful post WW2 sires. Nowadays though, the Star Kingdom line is almost unseen in Australian stallions (exceptions off the top of my head being Canny Lad and Show A Heart).

Obviously, there is the OCCASIONAL horse who will outperform his sire at stud, but by and large they won't, which is the point I made. Name me one sire who has had a number of sons outperform him at stud, at least in Australia? Redoute's Choice has been able to match Danehill at this stage of his career, but he is one of dozens of sons of Danehill at stud.
All we need is that all stallions produce 1 better than themselves. Majority do that. Sirelines that dont -die out. Those that do flourish and thats what's happening. General Nediym, Show A Heart, Redoute's Choice, Falvelon etc will outperform there sires here in Australia. Big Call on RC but I reckon his progeny will be better than Danehill's here. Whether RC can get good sires is unproven yet but we will see plenty in the coming years.

As for Star Kingdom there are a few left- Reenact, Our Maizcay, Planchet, Canny Lad, Show A Heart, Ombra Della Sera. No stars.
 

go fullta

Club Legend
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Posts
1,099
Likes
0
Location
victoria
AFL Club
Geelong
#20
very interesting arguement lads. haradasun would be better at stud because he has more speed. thats all australian breeders want these days.

i do agree with you though tim, its obvious that "most" horses dont perform better then there sires. as punter 22 said, if the stallion doesnt get early results, there buggered as poorer qaulity of mares and less numbers will come to the stallion from that point on.

as for show a heart, his sire i believe would have become one australias next top line stallions, if he did not die.

brave warrior- his statistics are amazing, and im sure he wouldnt have got the cream of the crop mares. from his only 2 crops to race, he had 7 stakes winners and earnings of $7.8 million...show a heart, another warrior, scenic warrior dynamic love etc.

as for derby winners, hardly any of them have gone on to be good sires. benicio will fail as a stallion for sure. elvstroem may do better because he was strong from 1600-2000m. blackfriars-dud, arena-struggling.
 

sethlad

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 15, 2001
Posts
7,006
Likes
1,336
Location
melb
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Derby County FC
#21
Except theres no such thing as a 2yo classic. The classics are for 3yos.
Semantics really,Gp 1/Classic.....tomato/tomarto

Point is,as made by GF that breeders want the big $$$$ 2yo winners.
Zabeel just doesnt get them,Fu Peg,we'll see.

Anyhow,what do we all think now Haradason V Efficient?
Personally Im yet to see any real turn of foot from Efficient this prep.

seth
 

Ron

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Sep 8, 2002
Posts
25,052
Likes
7,630
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
#22
Except theres no such thing as a 2yo classic. The classics are for 3yos.
Semantics really,Gp 1/Classic.....tomato/tomarto

Point is,as made by GF that breeders want the big $$$$ 2yo winners.
Zabeel just doesnt get them,Fu Peg,we'll see.

Anyhow,what do we all think now Haradason V Efficient?
Personally Im yet to see any real turn of foot from Efficient this prep.

seth
At least Efficient has actually beaten some decent horses, Haradsun constantly gets beaten by better horses.
 

go fullta

Club Legend
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Posts
1,099
Likes
0
Location
victoria
AFL Club
Geelong
#23
I Would still take haradasun as a stallion after todays performance. i never watched it but i did here it, it seems as though "EFFICIENT IS DOUR".

again i will say, as good as efficient may be, who will send there mare to a dour zabeel stallion who wont throw early 2yr olds.

haradasuns female line is top class. he may still become a star when he matures. time will tell.
 

Lockyer24

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jul 3, 2001
Posts
20,673
Likes
5,834
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Heat, Victory, Man Utd, Redskins
#24

At least Efficient has actually beaten some decent horses, Haradsun constantly gets beaten by better horses.


Haradasun beat most of the spuds Efficient did in the lead up and during the Derby I thought? Gorky Park etc

The next Circles of Gold to race will be a Redoutes Choice colt..forgot it's name...bet it's a beauty too
 

Ron

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Sep 8, 2002
Posts
25,052
Likes
7,630
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
#25
Haradasun beat most of the spuds Efficient did in the lead up and during the Derby I thought? Gorky Park etc

The next Circles of Gold to race will be a Redoutes Choice colt..forgot it's name...bet it's a beauty too
Yeah true, but doesn't matter now. I am off the Efficeint bandwagon until they start putting it in some races that it should be running in.
Should of ran in the cup today, much better suited to 2000 metres.
 
Top Bottom