if humans were really an intelligent species...

GoTheSwannies

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we'd be investing our resources into technology too improve health instead of putting better cameras in smartphones. we'd be putting money into.curing diseases instead of just masking their symptoms. we'd be focused on making products that last instead of polluting the earth by creating things that constantly need to be replaced.

humanity is inherently flawed in that respect, everything about our society is driven by the dollar instead of actually benefiting society. we need to turn the corner sooner rather than later but i don't know what the answer is.

btw, touch screens on smartphones, is that not a technological oxymoron?
 

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GoTheSwannies

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sorry, stupid smartphone didn't register my post the first time. thanks for.illustrating my point smartphone, maybe you're smarter than i gave you credit for, but your predictive text says otherwise

*i double posted the op for those that missed it
 

The Dice Man

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#3
Capitalism bro. Most sick and dying persons have no income or future income to go into debt, plus there's always more people behind them being born to fill the gap.

Earth? Who cares about the future of earth while it can be raped and pillaged for wealth right now.

Let the good times roll
 

Black Diamond

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I'm not much of technology historian, but aren't there several cases of private sector innovations being put to good use for the public benefit or more worthy causes?

Anyway, what exactly do you propose? Stopping the advancement of smart phones and forcing those engineers into more egalitarian pursuits?
 

WCErevival

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#10
There is money and research going into health and disease cures. Just because its not advertised everywhere doesn't mean its not happening.
 

Hot Pocket

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#11
I'm not much of technology historian, but aren't there several cases of private sector innovations being put to good use for the public benefit or more worthy causes?

Anyway, what exactly do you propose? Stopping the advancement of smart phones and forcing those engineers into more egalitarian pursuits?
Most major innovations (Penicillin is a good example) in medicine have come via public funding.

More public funding for science and research, higher salaries. Nobody grows up wanting to be an investment banker because its morally rewarding or feels good. Its money.
 

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Black Diamond

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#13
Most major innovations (Penicillin is a good example) in medicine have come via public funding.
Thanks. What about technology more broadly?

More public funding for science and research, higher salaries. Nobody grows up wanting to be an investment banker because its morally rewarding or feels good. Its money.
This is a little presumptuous. No doubt the money is an incentive but plenty of people enjoy that kind of work and ultimately an investment banker is providing a service people want. What do you actually propose to remedy this though?
 

Hot Pocket

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#14
Thanks. What about technology more broadly?
There's definitely a lot of private innovation, but its generally on the back of a government backed monopoly or funding.

CSIRO creating WiFi was a good example. Most military advancement obviously is state funded or subsidised. It's pretty staggering how much Australia and the USA spend on the military each year as a percentage of GDP compared to say, environmental protection or scientific/medical innovation. Australia is one of the better countries for that kind of spending though.


This is a little presumptuous. No doubt the money is an incentive but plenty of people enjoy that kind of work and ultimately an investment banker is providing a service people want. What do you actually propose to remedy this though?
There aren't many "people" who want a service from an investment banker, just other bankers. I've worked in that industry. It attracts the highest achievers (and a lot of deadset psychos) principally due to salary and remuneration.

Higher tax on corporations, a fairer system for the bulk of people on the planet and increased funding to things that actually matter. It needs a shift in global consciousness away from simply acquiring stuff though, and a return to our natural societal ways of actually giving a shit about eachother.

Further, the structure of corporations has made personal responsiblity a thing of the past for the rich. When there are actual individuals ruining the place you can hold them personally responsible for it. When its a corporation for some reason we just say "yeah well, that's what they're designed to do - make profit for their shareholders" and nobody questions whether this is fair or just. We just accept that profit is a reasonable goal regardless of the costs of that profit.
 

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#15
There aren't many "people" who want a service from an investment banker, just other bankers. I've worked in that industry. It attracts the highest achievers (and a lot of deadset psychos) principally due to salary and remuneration.
I just don't see that as a problem. So what if a bunch of bankers want to do whatever they do with their lives together? It's not my cup of tea, but I bet they wouldn't approve of my lifestyle either.


Higher tax on corporations, a fairer system for the bulk of people on the planet and increased funding to things that actually matter. It needs a shift in global consciousness away from simply acquiring stuff though, and a return to our natural societal ways of actually giving a shit about eachother.
Definitely agree on the shift of global consciousness though. I just think empowering people emotionally to do the right thing, and acknowledging the right thing is different for different people, is a better way to go than just taxing in the ambiguous pursuit of fairness.
 

kickazz

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#16
Hmmm. The Capitalism machine is a strange beast. Pursuing profit via designing plasma TVs, golf clubs, finding cures for baldness and other 'frivolous' activities is not that bad a thing. It grows an economy, it employs people, who then spend their money, etc. Out of that we get more tax revenue and from there more can be afforded for medical research and other more noble pursuits.

On the other hand, a lot of the greed that comes with it, tax avoidance, profiting from pushing unhealthy food and drink, skimming profit without creating real growth, etc has the opposite effect, creating a bigger problem with society in the first place.

For most of its history, I dare say that Capitalism has grown in parallel with better standards of living for most people. By this I mean better access to food, shelter, health care. The current notion of the Middle Class is so normal, so average, dare I say so boring, that we take it for granted. Go back a couple of centuries and you'll see people lived horribly wretched lives compared to our current standards. (Or, indeed, visit parts of the Third World today. And mind you, many people in some of these countries, like India, are starting to enjoy the benefits of this ghrowth).

Capitalism has pulled a lot of these good things along with it. I am concerned we are at a turning point however. There is research suggesting that life expectancy is on the decline again. Health issues, particulalry mental health and obesity related issues are worsening. And yet we are constantly making inroads in the fight against cancer.

There is a place for 'toys' and fun in society. When we have the basics in life covered, it is what we live for. By consuming these things, we can afford to pull more people up and have their basics covered. Do we have the balance right at the moment? I think it is okay, perhaps with the gap widening a little too much. We need to be ever vigilant.
 

Hot Pocket

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#17
I just don't see that as a problem. So what if a bunch of bankers want to do whatever they do with their lives together? It's not my cup of tea, but I bet they wouldn't approve of my lifestyle either.
Because their "work" directly harms the rest of us. I'm all for individual freedom, but only up to the point that it doesn't negatively impact on other people.

D
efinitely agree on the shift of global consciousness though. I just think empowering people emotionally to do the right thing, and acknowledging the right thing is different for different people, is a better way to go than just taxing in the ambiguous pursuit of fairness.
The rich have steadily increased their share of wealth the past 30 years. The rest of us have to work longer hours, pay more and have less to support them. Its time we took it back from them. Taxation is the peaceful way to do it, violent revolution (I don't mean attacking other people physically, just people in the streets forcibly taking what they deserve and affecting change through mass civil disobedience) is the other way.

Its a cycle that is hundreds of years old. Rich get greedy and start screwing with everyone else, there's a backlash and the people carve out a little more for themselves, the rich then come back over time and increase their share of the wealth again. Sometimes the people change, but for the most part its still the same families from the US and Europe profiting off the suffering of others.

As Russell Brand said in his excellent article in New Statesman today "poverty is the price of privilege"
 

Hot Pocket

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#18
Hmmm. The Capitalism machine is a strange beast. Pursuing profit via designing plasma TVs, golf clubs, finding cures for baldness and other 'frivolous' activities is not that bad a thing. It grows an economy, it employs people, who then spend their money, etc. Out of that we get more tax revenue and from there more can be afforded for medical research and other more noble pursuits.

On the other hand, a lot of the greed that comes with it, tax avoidance, profiting from pushing unhealthy food and drink, skimming profit without creating real growth, etc has the opposite effect, creating a bigger problem with society in the first place.

For most of its history, I dare say that Capitalism has grown in parallel with better standards of living for most people. By this I mean better access to food, shelter, health care. The current notion of the Middle Class is so normal, so average, dare I say so boring, that we take it for granted. Go back a couple of centuries and you'll see people lived horribly wretched lives compared to our current standards. (Or, indeed, visit parts of the Third World today. And mind you, many people in some of these countries, like India, are starting to enjoy the benefits of this ghrowth).

Capitalism has pulled a lot of these good things along with it. I am concerned we are at a turning point however. There is research suggesting that life expectancy is on the decline again. Health issues, particulalry mental health and obesity related issues are worsening. And yet we are constantly making inroads in the fight against cancer.

There is a place for 'toys' and fun in society. When we have the basics in life covered, it is what we live for. By consuming these things, we can afford to pull more people up and have their basics covered. Do we have the balance right at the moment? I think it is okay, perhaps with the gap widening a little too much. We need to be ever vigilant.
Good post, but that poverty you see in the third world is a direct result of Capitalism.
 

kickazz

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#19
Good post, but that poverty you see in the third world is a direct result of Capitalism.
I have heard this and need to understand it more. Is really due to Capitalism per se, or more to do with the ugliest parst of Capitalism - corruption, exploitation of labour, etc.

There are contries in Africa that are just as, if not more, blessed than us with natural resources. Why are they so poor? I assumed it was mostly due to way Western companies operated there / the destabalising influence of the Colonial era, etc.
 

Hot Pocket

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#20
I have heard this and need to understand it more. Is really due to Capitalism per se, or more to do with the ugliest parst of Capitalism - corruption, exploitation of labour, etc.

There are contries in Africa that are just as, if not more, blessed than us with natural resources. Why are they so poor? I assumed it was mostly due to way Western companies operated there / the destabalising influence of the Colonial era, etc.
There is that part of it, and then of course you have European or Anglo backed dictators terrorising and exploiting the people.

Take Bahrain as an example. Majority Shia island between Iran and Saudi Arabia, historically part of Persia.

Its where the US Fifth Fleet (its largest) is based.

During the 'Arab Spring' the majority and largely impoverished Shia tried to oust their Sunni dictator and show some sign of democracy. The Americans and Saudi's sent in a coalition of Pakistani's, Saudi's and other Sunni military personnel and started murdering people, even inside hospitals. Got very little press compared to Tunisia, Libya, Syria, Egypt etc. because our media is corrupted by billionaire interests and America need that island to base their fleet there (because Saudi extremists don't like American bases, but the House of Saud is America's best frined in the world... Bahrain provides a solution).

Or look at how terrorist attacks are committed in Europe or America, its almost universally performed by Sunni militants backed by Saudi money. Yet we're told the majority Shia countries/groups of Syria, Iran and Hezbollah are the bad guys, simply because they won't play ball with the Americans.

America TM is a giant vampire squid with its tentacles in every part of the world, sucking the life out of the majority of people.

Capitalism in theory is fine, but what we have now is corporatism. Teddy Roosevelt succesfully fought it off as the Trustbuster, but America lost its way a long time ago and allowed big banking, big industry and the military industrial complex to run the country in place of the people.
 

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#21
There are contries in Africa that are just as, if not more, blessed than us with natural resources. Why are they so poor? I assumed it was mostly due to way Western companies operated there / the destabalising influence of the Colonial era, etc.
Two reasons: Those African nations were to a large extent taken advantage of, but also those natural resources are very unaccessible and hard to transport compared to Australia.
 

Hot Pocket

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#22
You know something that makes me happy?

Butan has a 'happiness index'. i.e. their government is focused on making sure their people are happy, and its a priority given more value than the economy.

Australia should do something similar. So many Aussies are angry, yet we're the wealthiest nation in the world. Maybe money doesn't make you happy?
 

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#23
You know something that makes me happy?

Butan has a 'happiness index'. i.e. their government is focused on making sure their people are happy, and its a priority given more value than the economy.

Australia should do something similar. So many Aussies are angry, yet we're the wealthiest nation in the world. Maybe money doesn't make you happy?
That is kind of what I was getting at earlier when I said people need to be empowered emotionally. Humans are very hard to satisfy long term and I believe a psychological paradigm shift is needed. I'm sure most people if given a choice between lifetime satisfaction and a small salary versus lifetime angst and a large salary would choose the former. I just don't know if taxation and redistribution is the way to go about it.
 

GoTheSwannies

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There's definitely a lot of private innovation, but its generally on the back of a government backed monopoly or funding.

CSIRO creating WiFi was a good example. Most military advancement obviously is state funded or subsidised. It's pretty staggering how much Australia and the USA spend on the military each year as a percentage of GDP compared to say, environmental protection or scientific/medical innovation. Australia is one of the better countries for that kind of spending though.




There aren't many "people" who want a service from an investment banker, just other bankers. I've worked in that industry. It attracts the highest achievers (and a lot of deadset psychos) principally due to salary and remuneration.

Higher tax on corporations, a fairer system for the bulk of people on the planet and increased funding to things that actually matter. It needs a shift in global consciousness away from simply acquiring stuff though, and a return to our natural societal ways of actually giving a shit about eachother.

Further, the structure of corporations has made personal responsiblity a thing of the past for the rich. When there are actual individuals ruining the place you can hold them personally responsible for it. When its a corporation for some reason we just say "yeah well, that's what they're designed to do - make profit for their shareholders" and nobody questions whether this is fair or just. We just accept that profit is a reasonable goal regardless of the costs of that profit.
well said sir

and some suggestions. i like the cut of your jib
 

Run n Spread

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#25
You know something that makes me happy?

Butan has a 'happiness index'. i.e. their government is focused on making sure their people are happy, and its a priority given more value than the economy.

Australia should do something similar. So many Aussies are angry, yet we're the wealthiest nation in the world. Maybe money doesn't make you happy?
In theory yes from all the resources. But does that money trickle all the way down? (There is a thread on the S,R & P board about it). Ergo a lot of Australians are struggling to make ends meat, have to deal with the inflated costs of a boom which doesn't benefit them and are then lectured how great they have it.
 
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