Roast IF it isn't biased or ncompetent..... THEN it must be inciteful media coverage part II

[Agent93]

There is a grain of reason in that statement that we should have just done the deal last year and it has cost us more as a result.

That implies Geelong would have actually traded him last off-season.

If you're talking about the rumoured deal for the the two 2nd rounders we had at the time and the 2019 1st rounder, then one of those 2nd rounders was used to trade for 2019 pick 24 which was used along with the 2019 1st rounder in the eventual deal. We also gave up the 2020 1st rounder and pick 33.

So to compare the rumour you're looking at what we did with the other 2nd rounder vs what will happen with our traded 2020 1st rounder and 2019 pick 33. That other pick was traded to the Gold Coast for the picks we used on O'Neill and Williams.

So yeah, the delay of a season has cost us opportunity, and a year of Kelly. But we have obtained a player who has laid down two very good seasons as an attacking midfielder at Geelong.

 

[Agent93]

we have given up mostly middling picks in a really weak draft.

Certainly looks like the clubs are thinking along those lines. A lot of teams chucking a lot picks around for established players of various skill levels.

 

[ziad]

Certainly looks like the clubs are thinking along those lines. A lot of teams chucking a lot picks around for established players of various skill levels.

a bag of nails we will not need to think about

 

[Keys]

16. West Coast
IN – Tim Kelly + late picks
OUT – A future first round pick, Pick 14, Pick 24, Pick 33 + late picks
West Coast completely stuffed up the Tim Kelly situation in contrast to Geelong who played it beautifully. The Eagles refused to cough up for Kelly twelve months ago, meaning they missed out on having an All Australian midfielder complement their premiership defence that may have advanced further. Yet, they held out only for a significantly worse deal despite the fact that Kelly was no longer contracted. This is a message to other clubs, if you want a player just do the deal the first time or you pay for it later.


In comparison, Carlton's haul of Betts and Pinochet was enough for a top 4 position Meanwhile securing the best player in the entire trade period and improving our biggest weakness lands us in the bottom 4

https://themongrelpunt.com/afl-drafts-and-trades/2019/10/17/the-trade-ladder/

I really like the mongrel punt, their game reviews are almost always excellent and overall their articles are far better than most of the tripe you find in the mainstream media

However, Tom Basso who wrote that article isn’t one of my favourites on that site. He’s a Port Adelaide supporter who seems to have a bee in his bonnet with West Coast. After the Rioli suspension he wrote about how ASADA stuffed up waiting so long to act after his urine substitution (despite everyone who understands the process saying they actually acted quite swiftly) and how Essendon should be aggrieved about the elimination final result

He also wrote a two part article in August about our drug saga from over a decade ago. Part one was simply of rehash of information we already knew and part 2 was a very tenuous link to our 2018 premiership claiming that had we been sanctioned properly with the loss of draft picks we might not have won it

Most of that trade analysis is rubbish and probably the worst one I’ve read

A harsh assessment, sure. And I have no idea how they reached that Carlton ranking.

There is a grain of reason in that statement that we should have just done the deal last year and it has cost us more as a result.

But that is with the benefit of hindsight. Last time around we were looking at Kelly on a mere one year of exposed form. I think few would have predicted that he would take his game up 3-4 levels and suddenly become AA/Top 5 Brownlow.

That article claims we paid significantly more this year than we could have last year which is simply not true. Vozzo has said the offer from Geelong last year was picks 20 and 22 and our 2018 first which became pick 14

So 14,20,22 across two drafts

We paid 14,16-19*,24,33 across two drafts with 52 and 47-51* coming back (*assumes we finish top 4 and Geelong 5-8 and allows for the Suns priority pick)

Pick 14 is the common denominator. Picks 20 and 22 are broadly equivalent to our first next year (16-19) and 24. Which means the “significantly more” we paid was pick 33 but with two third round picks coming back as well that just about balances out 33

I won’t argue we paid more this year than what might have got a deal done last year but it certainly wasn’t significantly more

The other significant point he completely overlooked is we were dealing with a club that openly stated it’s reluctance to trade Kelly to a fierce rival and had a clear preference to deal with Fremantle instead. This attitude wiped out any leverage we may have had with Kelly being uncontracted because had he walked Fremantle would have been near certainties to draft him before us

He also ignores that very few pundits thought we’d be able to satisfy Geelong in a trade without losing a player(s) of our own or doing a lot of leg work to get a top 10 pick to offer Geelong. We did neither and were able to get a deal done within the first couple of days

It’s a really poor analysis

 

[SloppyJoe]

I really like the mongrel punt, their game reviews are almost always excellent and overall their articles are far better than most of the tripe you find in the mainstream media

However, Tom Basso who wrote that article isn’t one of my favourites on that site. He’s a Port Adelaide supporter who seems to have a bee in his bonnet with West Coast. After the Rioli suspension he wrote about how ASADA stuffed up waiting so long to act after his urine substitution (despite everyone who understands the process saying they actually acted quite swiftly) and how Essendon should be aggrieved about the elimination final result

He also wrote a two part article in August about our drug saga from over a decade ago. Part one was simply of rehash of information we already knew and part 2 was a very tenuous link to our 2018 premiership claiming that had we been sanctioned properly with the loss of draft picks we might not have won it

Most of that trade analysis is rubbish and probably the worst one I’ve read




That article claims we paid significantly more this year than we could have last year which is simply not true. Vozzo has said the offer from Geelong last year was picks 20 and 22 and our 2018 first which became pick 14

So 14,20,22 across two drafts

We paid 14,16-19*,24,33 across two drafts with 52 and 47-51* coming back (*assumes we finish top 4 and Geelong 5-8 and allows for the Suns priority pick)

Pick 14 is the common denominator. Picks 20 and 22 are broadly equivalent to our first next year (16-19) and 24. Which means the “significantly more” we paid was pick 33 but with two third round picks coming back as well that just about balances out 33

I won’t argue we paid more this year than what might have got a deal done last year but it certainly wasn’t significantly more

The other significant point he completely overlooked is we were dealing with a club that openly stated it’s reluctance to trade Kelly to a fierce rival and had a clear preference to deal with Fremantle instead. This attitude wiped out any leverage we may have had with Kelly being uncontracted because had he walked Fremantle would have been near certainties to draft him before us

He also ignores that very few pundits thought we’d be able to satisfy Geelong in a trade without losing a player(s) of our own or doing a lot of leg work to get a top 10 pick to offer Geelong. We did neither and were able to get a deal done within the first couple of days

It’s a really poor analysis

I didn't read the article, and it sounds like I'd be wasting my time doing it.

My point was less about what it cost us in picks and more about missing out on TK's 2019. But then we come back to the hindsight point.

 

[Spange]

I didn't read the article, and it sounds like I'd be wasting my time doing it.

My point was less about what it cost us in picks and more about missing out on TK's 2019. But then we come back to the hindsight point.

Just send post a weekly Gif of Tim Kelly in the wings drilling goals, to his email, twitter and whatever else the * he uses.

I hadn't watched much of TK but seeing him the final against us chopping it up and now knowing he is coming to us is magical.
The dude is a stud!

If he stays healthy look out.

●		31 disps (24 kicks 7 hballs), 9 marks, 4 tackles and 3 goals in Preliminary Final 19-pt loss to Richmond at the MCG (20 Sep 2019)
●		33 disps (22 kicks 11 hballs), 6 marks and 2 goals in Rd 15 27-pt win over Adelaide at GMHBA Stadium (28 Jun 2019)
●		32 disps (19 kicks 13 hballs), 9 marks and a goal in Rd 12 67-pt win over Richmond at the MCG (7 Jun 2019)
●		35 disps (22 kicks 13 hballs), 5 marks and 4 tackles in Rd 10 27-pt win over Gold Coast at Metricon Stadium (25 May 2019)
●		36 disps (23 kicks 13 hballs), 3 marks, 7 tackles and 2 goals in Rd 8 24-pt win over North Melbourne at Marvel Stadium (12 May 2019)
●		30 disps (19 kicks 11 hballs), 4 marks and 2 goals in Rd 7 32-pt win over Essendon at the MCG (5 May 2019)
●		29 disps (22 kicks 7 hballs), 5 marks and 2 goals in Rd 5 23-pt win over Hawthorn at the MCG (22 Apr 2019)
●		30 disps (14 kicks 16 hballs), 5 tackles and a goal in Rd 2 80-pt win over Melbourne at GMHBA Stadium (30 Mar 2019)
●		31 disps (17 kicks 14 hballs), 5 marks and 4 tackles in Rd 1 7-pt win over Collingwood at the MCG (22 Mar 2019)

 

[Agent93]

He also wrote a two part article in August about our drug saga from over a decade ago. Part one was simply of rehash of information we already knew and part 2 was a very tenuous link to our 2018 premiership claiming that had we been sanctioned properly with the loss of draft picks we might not have won it

I read those. They just came across as more Victorian bias.

Getting Cuz for bringing the game into disrepute was a good as they could have done, because they had no evidence to bring other players up on the illicit drugs code. There's no way (at the time) the club itself could be implicated or sanctioned, other than loss of reputation.

Meanwhile, 3 years later a bunch of Pies players get up to a tonne of stupid s**t and that's all fine.

 

[squashface]

Watch out for Jettadardz in the midfield gaiz



View attachment 767075

#whatsthepointinpersisting #gunstonandbock #handjobe

 

[FatPizza]

#whatsthepointinpersisting #gunstonandbock #handjobe

Loving that #handjobe is still a thing.

 

[Ok Boomer]

I will back the club in with their handling of the Kelly trade for both last trade period and this trade period.

We won the flag without Gaff, Nic Nat and Shep. We had a host of first or second year young players who could and did improve. We had every right to be a lot more cautious in terms of what we were willing to trade for one player.

 

[amazingjoshy]

That author doesn't mind "stretching" the facts to suit the narrative he feels like writing about.

Its arguable WC even paid more this year than what Geelong was asking last year, just on face value.

33 is balanced by receiving 52+Cats future 3rd. 14 is canceled out.

So its 24+next years first (in a compromised draft) vs 20+22

That in no way is "significantly more"


And, if you then factor in what we did by keeping 20+22, we have effectively have O'Neil, Foley and Williams on the list instead of keeping next years first.

But its coming from a guy that implied that Chris Masten playing in 2018 means that flag is tainted.....

 

[Matera92]

That article is terrible.

According to that author, busy = good during the trade period.

Just shuffle some deck chairs in front of him, he'll be real impressed.

 

[Coasters7]

That author doesn't mind "stretching" the facts to suit the narrative he feels like writing about.

Its arguable WC even paid more this year than what Geelong was asking last year, just on face value.

33 is balanced by receiving 52+Cats future 3rd. 14 is canceled out.

So its 24+next years first (in a compromised draft) vs 20+22

That in no way is "significantly more"


And, if you then factor in what we did by keeping 20+22, we have effectively have O'Neil, Foley and Williams on the list instead of keeping next years first.

But its coming from a guy that implied that Chris Masten playing in 2018 means that flag is tainted.....

I think this gets overlooked quite a bit. Effectively only need those three to be worth 14-18 + 33 for us to have made the right call. Williams is already looking like he could be worth a late first rounder at the very least, leaving O’Neill and Foley to try and pick up the slack of a pick 33 in a weak draft.. Considering second rounders are hit and miss at the best of times, you wouldn’t really be upset if neither of them made it as 33 is likely to be the same odds of getting a decent player.. and we have 2 cracks at it.

The only thing you could say is would 2019 Kelly have seen us go B2B.. possibly, but there’s too many variables to say we messed up based on that. People (journalists) seem to forget the outlook was a lot different last year. He was a mature first year player with no guarantees he’d back it up. Now we know he can, and the price really didn’t increase that much.

 

[kerr87]

I reckon knowing what we know now we would have given up the picks geelong wanted last year for Kelly. Tbf it prob cost us going back to back.

 

[Keys]

I reckon knowing what we know now we would have given up the picks geelong wanted last year for Kelly. Tbf it prob cost us going back to back.

I reckon you’re right that with hindsight we would have done the deal but less convinced it cost us b2b. We’d have finished better than a semi-final loss though

That said had we done the deal, we wouldn’t have O’Neill, Foley and Williams on our list but would have pick 33 or thereabouts and our 2020 first rounder still in our pocket

Really need at least two of that trio to flourish

 

[Agent93]

I reckon you’re right that with hindsight we would have done the deal but less convinced it cost us b2b. We’d have finished better than a semi-final loss though

That said had we done the deal, we wouldn’t have O’Neill, Foley and Williams on our list but would have pick 33 or thereabouts and our 2020 first rounder still in our pocket

Really need at least two of that trio to flourish

If you really want to go through rumours and revisionist history, we'd probably want Brander to flourish as well, owing to the rumour that his availability at our first pick changed our 2017 draft strategy.

 

[kerr87]

I reckon you’re right that with hindsight we would have done the deal but less convinced it cost us b2b. We’d have finished better than a semi-final loss though

That said had we done the deal, we wouldn’t have O’Neill, Foley and Williams on our list but would have pick 33 or thereabouts and our 2020 first rounder still in our pocket

Really need at least two of that trio to flourish

At this stage only Williams looks promising.
We're not good at picking mids.

Kelly in our team and we would have finished at least top 4 and most likely top 2.

Would take the 2019 flag over foley williams and O'neil.

 

[FatPizza]

At this stage only Williams looks promising.
We're not good at picking mids.

Kelly in our team and we would have finished at least top 4 and most likely top 2.

Would take the 2019 flag over foley williams and O'neil.

Personally I thought O'Neill finished the off the season really well.

 

[DirtySandman]

However, Tom Basso who wrote that article isn’t one of my favourites on that site

Heard he is some 19 year old kid.

Really, Mongrel should delist him, had him for a year or so, and had a few failings, been quite poor. they shouldn't persist with him.

His musings, are no more inciteful, than your average bum on bigfooty, and has obvious bias.

 

[Max zero]

At this stage only Williams looks promising.
We're not good at picking mids.

Kelly in our team and we would have finished at least top 4 and most likely top 2.

Would take the 2019 flag over foley williams and O'neil.

Honestly don't think Kelly was the difference. We were in second gear all year. Lacklustre wins with the occasional heavy defeat in between.

 

[Tugga27]

Honestly don't think Kelly was the difference. We were in second gear all year. Lacklustre wins with the occasional heavy defeat in between.

Yep

I doubt Kelly would've made a huge difference.

I reckon our backline, especially Gov and Barrass had a poor last month.

 

[MerryHell]

I reckon our backline, especially Gov and Barrass had a poor last month.

Yep so much this

 

[PremiershipNo4]

Given that Richmond were gifted the last 2 months of the season at the MCG and we had the Rioli drama which seriously affected our teams output, I don't think we should be thinking we would have won the 2019 flag with Kelly.
I do though think that Richmond won't be gifted the same easy fixture in 2020 and that WC will be a huge shot at the title with Kelly in the team. I personally think 2020 will be a dominant year from WC, with a point to prove.

 

[JADED]

Yep

I doubt Kelly would've made a huge difference.

I reckon our backline, especially Gov and Barrass had a poor last month.

Yep so much this

Also agree, as most of us likely do.
1 week Barrass got beaten by a faster opponent, the next week taller, then stronger. We backed him to return to form and it ended woefully against Geelong.

No one is expecting us to hold the opposition scoreless but Barrass leaking 4 goals and Gov 2, by my supermath gives the opposition an extra 36 points. As we rarely thrash teams, that's a lot to give up.
Sheppard's last third of the year was nowhere near as useful as the first two thirds either.

Better midfield = less pressure on defenders so the back 6 should look even better next year.

 

[Tugga27]

Also agree, as most of us likely do.
1 week Barrass got beaten by a faster opponent, the next week taller, then stronger. We backed him to return to form and it ended woefully against Geelong.

No one is expecting us to hold the opposition scoreless but Barrass leaking 4 goals and Gov 2, by my supermath gives the opposition an extra 36 points. As we rarely thrash teams, that's a lot to give up.
Sheppard's last third of the year was nowhere near as useful as the first two thirds either.

Better midfield = less pressure on defenders so the back 6 should look even better next year.

Also, Cole fell off a cliff and Hurn wasn't the same returning after injury.

Reckon there were times when the opposition looked like scoring a goal every time they went into the 50.