Expansion If the AFL expanded, where would the next team/s be?

Roylion

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Brisbane clearly were not a relocated club from Melbourne.
It is also untrue to say Brisbane Lions were set up from scratch in 1987.
It was Brisbane Bears that were set up from scratch in 1987.
The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the SAME club. Formed in 1987. Rebranding a club does not make it a new club. Moving a club from one league to another league doesn't make it a new club either.

Wasn't Hawthorn known as the Mayblooms before the 1940s and changed their colours from blue and gold to brown and gold in 1914? I believe they even moved leagues in 1925.
 

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madmug

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Dont kill clubs, no mergers, no relocations. Just allow for promotion and relegation
We dont have a suitable 2nd tier system. We couldnt afford it either.
No sports league in the USA have it. It really only applies in soccer which has a mass of clubs in heavily populated countries.
You note that A-league doesnt have it either.
 

McCrann

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We dont have a suitable 2nd tier system. We couldnt afford it either.
No sports league in the USA have it. It really only applies in soccer which has a mass of clubs in heavily populated countries.
You note that A-league doesnt have it either.
I see that the A-League doesn't have promotion-relegation, but I really would love to see some of the soccer diehards get it introduced in Australia.

It would be "delicious" to watch as one prominent commentator might say.
 

General Giant

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I see that the A-League doesn't have promotion-relegation, but I really would love to see some of the soccer diehards get it introduced in Australia.

It would be "delicious" to watch as one prominent commentator might say.
Itd be the death of professional football in Australia.

Our country is to big with to little a population.


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madmug

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I see that the A-League doesn't have promotion-relegation, but I really would love to see some of the soccer diehards get it introduced in Australia.

It would be "delicious" to watch as one prominent commentator might say.
But how?
Most of theA-league teams are financial basket cases now. How do state league teams compete?
 

jatz14

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But how?
Most of theA-league teams are financial basket cases now. How do state league teams compete?
I would love it, minor clubs promoted to the A League, to fill the fixture with noncompetitive bore fests, or the FFA having to fork out money it doe not have so clubs operating beyond their means can compete. Do not think the FFA will do it, but there are lots of calls for it.
 

McCrann

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I would love it, minor clubs promoted to the A League, to fill the fixture with noncompetitive bore fests, or the FFA having to fork out money it doe not have so clubs operating beyond their means can compete. Do not think the FFA will do it, but there are lots of calls for it.
The FFA would be fools to do it. But there are plenty of fools around.
 
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As I said I just thought it would be interesting to introduce teams in these places but obviously I know they're not going to happen. Logical choices are still really just Tasmania, Perth, or another Adelaide based SA team. Although I'm not sure why Newcastle is such a stretch - close proximity to Sydney and is still a large enough city to host an AFL team - fits in with the AFL's obsession with forcing the game into NSW as well
Of course you're entitled to express an opinion. Yes it may well be interesting in a curiosity sense, but I can't see these as realistic options.
Have you ever been to Newcastle? An AFL team won't happen there.
 

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McCrann

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Of course you're entitled to express an opinion. Yes it may well be interesting in a curiosity sense, but I can't see these as realistic options.
Have you ever been to Newcastle? An AFL team won't happen there.
Newcastle is an option in the same way GWS is, just with a bit of added sauce.

That being the Castle Coast area as a whole. Newcastle/Central Coast. This kind of thing would only happen in a "joint" venture with Cricket Australia to develop a 30-35,000 seat oval ground somewhere in the area.
 
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Newcastle is an option in the same way GWS is, just with a bit of added sauce.

That being the Castle Coast area as a whole. Newcastle/Central Coast. This kind of thing would only happen in a "joint" venture with Cricket Australia to develop a 30-35,000 seat oval ground somewhere in the area.
Never heard of any proposals in this area, let alone a joint venture with cricket Australia. Seems far fetched to me, unless you know any different?
 

bombersfan4000

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I can only see additional sides in Perth and Sydney areas as that is where the $$$ is, and it won't happen any time soon.

Joondalup
South Sydney
WA & Perth/ Joondalup would be the only place that could afford an AFL side.
Sydney, would be nice but see how GWS go & hold up financialy. the NRL sides are financial disaster pits. their leagues clubs have been their savior for decades
 
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Never heard of any proposals in this area, let alone a joint venture with cricket Australia. Seems far fetched to me, unless you know any different?

NSW cricket and AFL NSW have been fronting up Proposals to the Newcadtle city council for years to renovate newcastLe number 1 oval where Newcastle city footy club run from - think Newcastle won the premiership again this year in the Black Diamond league
 
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WA & Perth/ Joondalup would be the only place that could afford an AFL side.
Sydney, would be nice but see how GWS go & hold up financialy. the NRL sides are financial disaster pits. their leagues clubs have been their savior for decades
I have said it before but if GWS look like being self sufficient the AFL will be like a rat up a drainpipe in organising a 3rd Sydney team - that is where the money and population is.
 

bombersfan4000

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I have said it before but if GWS look like being self sufficient the AFL will be like a rat up a drainpipe in organising a 3rd Sydney team - that is where the money and population is.
GWS will get their eventually they were never going to be an overnight success story. GCS will be the long term worry.
Sydney is an important market for the AFL broardcast wise, but for financial viability for a team to succeed on its own terms perth would be the only market
 

footyfan78

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The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the SAME club. Formed in 1987. Rebranding a club does not make it a new club. Moving a club from one league to another league doesn't make it a new club either.

Wasn't Hawthorn known as the Mayblooms before the 1940s and changed their colours from blue and gold to brown and gold in 1914? I believe they even moved leagues in 1925.
Disagree mate. To try to say all that happened up at Brisbane was a rebranding is simply not the correct description. It was an AFL merger to manipulate Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears into a merged club called the Brisbane Lions ever since. That certainly means only Brisbane Bears were formed from scratch. Both the histories of the two clubs that were different clubs before, been carried on by the merged Brisbane Lions. To me it is like in South Australia Woodville and West Torrens merged into one club. A rebranding is more like Footscray calling themselves Western Bulldogs or North Melbourne for a few years tried to brand themselves only as Kangaroos.
Brisbane Bears were formed in 1987. Not Brisbane Lions. Brisbane Bears were merged to a club now known as Brisbane Lions from 1997 season.

This is the very reason if you click on Brisbane Lions website of their club it has a link to the last game of the Brisbane Bears.
http://www.lions.com.au/Club/history/brisbane-bears-history/last-game
 
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Gibbke

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Disagree mate. To try to say all that happened up at Brisbane was a rebranding is simply not the correct description. It was an AFL merger to manipulate Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears into a merged club called the Brisbane Lions ever since. That certainly means only Brisbane Bears were formed from scratch. Both the histories of the two clubs that were different clubs before, been carried on by the merged Brisbane Lions. To me it is like in South Australia Woodville and West Torrens merged into one club. A rebranding is more like Footscray calling themselves Western Bulldogs or North Melbourne for a few years tried to brand themselves only as Kangaroos.
Brisbane Bears were formed in 1987. Not Brisbane Lions. Brisbane Bears were merged to a club now known as Brisbane Lions from 1997 season.

This is the very reason if you click on Brisbane Lions website of their club it has a link to the last game of the Brisbane Bears.
http://www.lions.com.au/Club/history/brisbane-bears-history/last-game
I used to share this view once, but Roylion put forward a few documents which swung me. The Lions are more of a rebranding than a merger - all that Brisbane took from Fitzroy were their jumper, a few players and the trophy cabinet. The fact that Fitzroy VAFA are recognised as the official Fitzroy after a Supreme court ruling tells you that real Fitzroy never went north...
 
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FootyJunkie

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I used to share this view once, but Roylion put forward a few documents which swung me. The Lions are more of a rebranding than a merger - all the Brisbane took from Fitzroy were their jumper, a few players and the trophy cabinet. The fact that Fitzroy VAFA are recognised as the official Fitzroy after a Supreme court ruling tells you that real Fitzroy never went north...
I was the same... Brisbane Lions started in 1987, back when they were known as the Brisbane Bears
 

Roylion

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Disagree mate. To try to say all that happened up at Brisbane was a rebranding is simply not the correct description..
I'm afraid it is the correct description. And I say that as a shareholder of the Fitzroy Football Club.

It was an AFL merger to manipulate Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears into a merged club called the Brisbane Lions ever since.
It suited the AFL narrative t keep as many Fitzroy supporters as possible by calling Brisbane's re-branding a "merger", but in reality it wasn't.

That certainly means only Brisbane Bears were formed from scratch.
The Brisbane Lions are the Brisbane Bears. Formed in 1987. Michael Voss has only ever played for one club. Chris Johnson has played for two. Fitzroy and Brisbane.

Chris Johnson signed a new contract with the Brisbane Bears (soon to be renamed Lions), after his Fitzroy contract was paid out. No Brisbane Bears player signed a new contract with the Brisbane Lions. They didn't have to. No new entity was formed. The Brisbane Bears were the same club as the Brisbane Lions.

Both the histories of the two clubs that were different clubs before, been carried on by the merged Brisbane Lions.
No they haven't. Brisbane commemorates Fitzroy's VFL-AFL history

Morally, spiritually and legally the Fitzroy Football Club in the VAFA is the same club as the Fitzroy that competed in the VFA from 1884 to 1896 and then VFL-AFL from 1897 to 1996. Even the Deed of Arrangement signed in 1996 between the Brisbane Bears and the administrator of Fitzroy acknowledges that.

So does the Supreme Court of Victoria.

In 2010 in the Supreme Court of Victoria , the Brisbane Lions argued that the attempt by Fitzroy to try to hold the Brisbane Lions to the Deed of Arrangement in regards to the continuing use of the Fitzroy lion, "was the case of an "historical entity with a shrinking supporter base" (that is THE Fitzroy Football Club formed 1883) "seeking to control the activities of an ongoing enterprise in a way that was going to cause it great loss and get in the way of a progressive marketing exercise commensurate with a strong and competitive football team.”

The Brisbane Lions went on to say that the Fitzroy Football Club was engaging in “officious meddling” in the affairs of another Club (i.e. Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Ltd).

Fitzroy Football Club Ltd (ACN 005 881 201. ABN 20 005 881 201. Registered: 09/07/1981)
vs. Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Ltd (ACN: 054 263 473, ABN: 43 054 263 473 Registered: 16/12/1991. originally the Brisbane Bears Football Club Ltd.)
Supreme Court of Victoria - 3rd May 2010.

In other words what the Brisbane Lions were arguing in the Supreme Court is that THE Fitzroy Football Club had nothing to do with their club, nor had, or should have, any input into their club and the Deed of Arrangement, written by the "merged club" (i.e. the Brisbane Bears now calling themselves the Brisbane Lions) was nothing more than a worthless piece of paper.

To me it is like in South Australia Woodville and West Torrens merged into one club.
Except that in the case of Brisbane and Fitzroy that didn't happen.

A rebranding is more like Footscray calling themselves Western Bulldogs or North Melbourne for a few years tried to brand themselves only as Kangaroos.
And the Brisbane Bears re-branding themselves as the Brisbane Lions. Did you know for example that the Brisbane Bears members voted in 1996 to change their club name from "Brisbane Bears Football Club" to " "Brisbane Bears Fitzroy Football Club", Not one Fitzroy member and/or shareholder in 1996 (I was both) participated in this vote because they were considered members of a different club. I'm still a shareholder of the very same Fitzroy Football Club, but I am not a shareholder of the Brisbane Lions. Why? They are different clubs.

Brisbane Bears were formed in 1987. Not Brisbane Lions. Brisbane Bears were merged to a club now known as Brisbane Lions from 1997 season.
Rebranded for the 1997 season.

This is the very reason if you click on Brisbane Lions website of their club it has a link to the last game of the Brisbane Bears.
http://www.lions.com.au/Club/history/brisbane-bears-history/last-game
Perhaps you should look at the Supreme Court of Victoria ruling from 2010. In that year the Fitzroy Football Club took the Brisbane Lions to court over the violation of the terms of the Deed of Arrangement.

Incidentally that document, also known as the "merger document" states quite clearly that:

(relevant sections of the arrangement below)


Clause 7.1 a.
a) after the end of the 1996 Season and on or before the Merger Date, Fitzroy will cease its Fitzroy Operations, terminate the membership of its Appointee of AFL (appointed pursuant to AFL's constitutent documents) and surrender its AFL Licence and release AFL from all claims connected with its AFL Licence and such termination and surrender;

Section 2. Except as provided in this Deed, nothing in this Deed will be construed or interpreted to mean that Brisbane Bears will assume any liability for the debts or obligations of Fitzroy or that the Brisbane Bears will have any input in the ongoing management of Fitzroy.

The Deed of Arrangement also states

Definitions (page 5)

"Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears which will conduct the combined Club Operations of Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears following the Merger;

The administrator of Fitzroy sold off bits and pieces of Fitzroy's AFL assets (their "Club Operations") to mainly the Brisbane Bears, until the Club's debts to Nauru were settled. The AFL transferred any AFL owned branding from Fitzroy to the Brisbane Bears and altered their draft rules so that the Brisbane Bears coud select up to eight (now uncontracted) Fitzroy players as pre-draft concession selections.
 
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madmug

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Newcastle is an option in the same way GWS is, just with a bit of added sauce.

That being the Castle Coast area as a whole. Newcastle/Central Coast. This kind of thing would only happen in a "joint" venture with Cricket Australia to develop a 30-35,000 seat oval ground somewhere in the area.
Yep, just another lazy $200mil 'investment' by the AFL should do it.
 

footyfan78

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Perhaps you should look at the Supreme Court of Victoria ruling from 2010. In that year the Fitzroy Football Club took the Brisbane Lions to court over the violation of the terms of the Deed of Arrangement.
I think you are missing the actual point of disagreement we have. The Brisbane Lions did not start from scratch. Brisbane Bears did.
The rest of the stuff I not concerned myself with. You can identify Fitzroy Football Club anyway you like, it is your club after all. But the Brisbane Bears was not your club and that club that was started from scratch was merged into a new entity in 1997. The Bears was the part of club lost in that period, almost like the AFL and the pioneers accepted it had not gone to plan so that manipulated it to from an new entity . Brisbane named changed and got added the Lions name to it as a new entity. The point is Brisbane Bears was the club started from scratch in 1987. To say otherwise is quite misleading to the reality of it.
 

Roylion

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I think you are missing the actual point of disagreement we have. The Brisbane Lions did not start from scratch. Brisbane Bears did.
You're ignoring everything I've said. The Brisbane Bears/Lions are the SAME club. As they are the same club it follows logically that the Brisbane Lions started from scratch in 1987. At that point they adopted the Bears mascot which they later changed to the Lions. Re-branding doesn't make a new entity.

But the Brisbane Bears was not your club and that club that was started from scratch was merged into a new entity in 1997.
No it was not "merged into a new entity in 1997". I've already explained the reasons why it did not "merge into a new entity". The Brisbane Bears rebranded from Bears to Lions in the same way Fitzroy adopted the Lion in 1957 or Hawthorn changed from the Mayblooms to the Hawks in the 1940s or Footscray became the Western Bulldogs.

The Bears was the part of club lost in that period, almost like the AFL and the pioneers accepted it had not gone to plan so that manipulated it to from an new entity.
There was no new entity. I've explained how and why quite clearly. You've just ignored it. Read the whole of what I read again. Carefully this time.

Brisbane named changed and got added the Lions name to it as a new entity.
Brisbane re-branded from Bears to Lions in the same way Footscray became the Western Bulldogs. As in the case of the Footscray/Western Bulldogs, the entity remained the same.

Did the Western Bulldogs begin as a football club in 1877, 1925 or 1997?

The point is Brisbane Bears was the club started from scratch in 1987. To say otherwise is quite misleading to the reality of it.
I'm afraid you are the one who is misled. I was involved in the events of 1996 as a shareholder of Fitzroy Football Club. I can assure you that the Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the same entity. This was confirmed beyond doubt in the Supreme Court of Victoria in 2010 by the Brisbane Lions themselves.
 
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