Expansion If the AFL expanded, where would the next team/s be?

madmug

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The Supreme court of Victoria. Yep that settles it!
Off topic but I wonder if Fitzroy would ever get back to the VFL?
I guess the AFL would use their vindictive powers to block that.
 

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Gibbke

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I think you are missing the actual point of disagreement we have. The Brisbane Lions did not start from scratch. Brisbane Bears did.
The rest of the stuff I not concerned myself with. You can identify Fitzroy Football Club anyway you like, it is your club after all. But the Brisbane Bears was not your club and that club that was started from scratch was merged into a new entity in 1997. The Bears was the part of club lost in that period, almost like the AFL and the pioneers accepted it had not gone to plan so that manipulated it to from an new entity . Brisbane named changed and got added the Lions name to it as a new entity. The point is Brisbane Bears was the club started from scratch in 1987. To say otherwise is quite misleading to the reality of it.
It's like we're both members of an exclusive gentleman's club, and you and the rest of the club decide to kick me out, but before I go you take my monocle, chips for the pokies and my jacket. Wearing my jacket you then go around telling everyone that you're me and that I'm totally cool with it, and they buy it. Meanwhile I'm driving past certain street corners on Friday and Saturday nights in the Commodore trying to tell myself that this is where I'd rather be anyway...
 

footyfan78

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Brisbane clearly were not a relocated club from Melbourne.
It is also untrue to say Brisbane Lions were set up from scratch in 1987.
It was Brisbane Bears that were set up from scratch in 1987.
The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the SAME club. Formed in 1987. Rebranding a club does not make it a new club. Moving a club from one league to another league doesn't make it a new club either.

Wasn't Hawthorn known as the Mayblooms before the 1940s and changed their colours from blue and gold to brown and gold in 1914? I believe they even moved leagues in 1925.
Disagree mate. To try to say all that happened up at Brisbane was a rebranding is simply not the correct description. Only Brisbane Bears were formed from scratch.
If you click on Brisbane Lions website of their club it has a link to the last game of the Brisbane Bears.
http://www.lions.com.au/Club/history/brisbane-bears-history/last-game
You're ignoring everything I've said.
The fact you ignore the link from what the Brsbane Lions club says themselves means I did not bother reading beyond seeing your initial complete denial of the above by that club.
 

BulldogJake

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Yep, just another lazy $200mil 'investment' by the AFL should do it.
Although i'm not personally for it if the AFL wanted a Newcastle team they'd make sure it worked. As people have already mentioned 1) Close proximity to Sydney (create artificial rivalries with the Sydney clubs) 2) Gain support from Central Coast/North Sydney areas 3) Sydney/NSW TV money from 'boutique' events like tomorrow's final. Although there crowds won't increase massively next season, watch GWS' membership numbers go through the roof... Just like Sydney's has in the last 5-10 years. The meaning of crowds keep losing their meaning with the more memberships people buy and that's the model the AFL would go with for a Newcaslte side.
 

Roylion

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The fact you ignore the link from what the Brsbane Lions club says themselves means I did not bother reading beyond seeing your initial complete denial of the above by that club.
Of course you didn't read it. You have your own pre-concieved idea of what happened and won't even look at the actual evidence that demonstrates that didn't happen. And I say the above as a current member of the Brisbane Lions.

The Brisbane Lions want to maintain a link to Fitzroy in order to maintain their Melbourne supporter base. Whatever they say about being a new entity is not correct. The AFL knows this and combines the records of the Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions.

The last game as the Bears was the preliminary final in 1996. That was not Brisbane's last AFL game.

This is what the Brisbane Lions said in 2010 in the Supreme Court about Fitzroy...which they clearly regarded as a completely separate club.

Fitzroy's argument "was the case of an "historical entity with a shrinking supporter base" [that is THE Fitzroy Football Club formed 1883] "seeking to control the activities of an ongoing enterprise [The Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club] in a way that was going to cause it great loss and get in the way of a progressive marketing exercise commensurate with a strong and competitive football team.”

Fitzroy club secretary Bill Atherton said at the time. "Fitzroy did not merge with the Brisbane Bears. It was an acquisition by the Bears of Fitzroy bits and pieces.”
 

The_Wookie

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The fact you ignore the link from what the Brsbane Lions club says themselves means I did not bother reading beyond seeing your initial complete denial of the above by that club.
Perhaps some further reading should be required on your own behalf. (and Ill note that Roylion is the definitive authority on Bigfooty when it comes to things Fitzroy).

The website only says when the Bears played their last game, and separates the various playing periods of the Fitzroy Lions/Brisbane Bears/Brisbane Lions. Bears effectively took over the AFL License and change the brand name. They were not a new club after this, they were the same club with Fitzroys license and some former players bolted on.

Its worth noting that ASIC records the Brisbane Bears - Fitzroy Lions Football Club Limited was formerly known as the Brisbane Bears Football Club Limited. Its worth noting that this company has existed on the ASIC record since 1991 - some 5 years before the "merger".

It was almost literally a rebrand. The Lions WERE set up from scratch in 1987 - well late 1986 - as the Bears.
 

footyfan78

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Perhaps some further reading should be required on your own behalf. (and Ill note that Roylion is the definitive authority on Bigfooty when it comes to things Fitzroy).
Perhaps understanding the disagreement about the fact that Brisbane Bears was the club started up from scratch should be understood first.
I have no actual need to read up on Fitzroy for the aspect of 1987 for Brisbane Bears. I know enough about Fitzroy. It is about the Bears is the topic for me and 1987. The only Lions in 1987 were Fitzroy.
For Roylion to try to make out the club started up from scratch in 1987, was not Brisbane Bears is re-writing history which simply is not true of the year 1987.
 
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madmug

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Although i'm not personally for it if the AFL wanted a Newcastle team they'd make sure it worked. As people have already mentioned 1) Close proximity to Sydney (create artificial rivalries with the Sydney clubs) 2) Gain support from Central Coast/North Sydney areas 3) Sydney/NSW TV money from 'boutique' events like tomorrow's final. Although there crowds won't increase massively next season, watch GWS' membership numbers go through the roof... Just like Sydney's has in the last 5-10 years. The meaning of crowds keep losing their meaning with the more memberships people buy and that's the model the AFL would go with for a Newcaslte side.
It might be worth looking at the A league sides & RL sides in the area. They are all near the bottom of their leagues.
How would that look to an AFL franchise? A positive or a negative?
Personally I'd keep the $200 mil & not piss it up against the wall in an area that would take 50 years to make an AFL dent in their sports culture. They'll need it for GWS & GC, as well as a few 'non interstate" clubs, right now ;)
 

footyfan78

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Of course you didn't read it. You have your own pre-concieved idea of what happened and won't even look at the actual
You are not acknowledging your actual own pre-conceived idea about Bears. There is nothing for me to read because I was around in 1987. Not sure why the need to re-write history to make it seem like Bears was not what was started up from scratch in 1987. Trying to call them Brisbane Lions back in 1987 simply is not the reality. Trying to make two wrongs make a right does not justify the re-writing of history. What really happened in the year of 1987 is the actual true historical event of West Coast Eagles and Brisbane Bears starting up from scratch.
 
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BulldogJake

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It might be worth looking at the A league sides & RL sides in the area. They are all near the bottom of their leagues.
How would that look to an AFL franchise? A positive or a negative?
Personally I'd keep the $200 mil & not piss it up against the wall in an area that would take 50 years to make an AFL dent in their sports culture. They'll need it for GWS & GC, as well as a few 'non interstate" clubs, right now ;)
You also have to remind yourself that business wise the AFL is the best ran league in Australia, perhaps the world if you consider Australia's small population. The A-League and NRL on the other hand are ran by morons, FFA are one of the most incompetent organisations in Australia (coming from an avid Melbourne Vuck fan).
As I said I'm not personally a fan of it, would prefer to see Tasmania or a 3rd WA team but if the AFL want it to happen they have plenty of options to exploit to make it work. :cool:
 

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madmug

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You also have to remind yourself that business wise the AFL is the best ran league in Australia, perhaps the world if you consider Australia's small population. The A-League and NRL on the other hand are ran by morons, FFA are one of the most incompetent organisations in Australia (coming from an avid Melbourne Vuck fan).
As I said I'm not personally a fan of it, would prefer to see Tasmania or a 3rd WA team but if the AFL want it to happen they have plenty of options to exploit to make it work. :cool:
Yes & the US thought Vietnam & Iraq would be easy too.
Might & money would soon run out if they were silly enough to try. I think they have enough to do with GWS, GC & the other financial worries they have.
 

Roylion

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Perhaps understanding the disagreement about the fact that Brisbane Bears was the club started up from scratch should be understood first.
It's not that difficult to understand. The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the same club. Formed in 1987.

In the same way as Footscray and the Western Bulldogs are the same club.

I know enough about Fitzroy. It is about the Bears is the topic for me and 1987. The only Lions in 1987 were Fitzroy.
And in 1996, the Fitzroy Lions left the AFL competition when their licence was removed, allowing the Brisbane Football Club to rebrand their identity from "Bears" to "Lions". No new licence was created for a new club. The Brisbane Bears / Lions retained the same licence.

For Roylion to try to make out the club started up from scratch in 1987, was not Brisbane Bears is re-writing history which simply is not true of the year 1987.
The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the SAME club. It then follows logically that the Brisbane Lions started as a football club in 1987, in the same way the Hawthorn Football Club started in 1902, (and were known as the Mayblooms). Their brown and gold colours weren't adopted until 1914. Before then they wore blue and gold.
 

Roylion

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Trying to call them Brisbane Lions back in 1987 simply is not the reality. Trying to make two wrongs make a right does not justify the re-writing of history. What really happened in the year of 1987 is the actual true historical event of West Coast Eagles and Brisbane Bears starting up from scratch.
Once again. The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the SAME club in the same way as Footscray and the Western Bulldogs are the SAME club. What is so difficult to understand about that?

That means that the
  • Brisbane Bears / Lions were formed/started in 1987.
  • Footscray / Western Bulldogs were formed/started in 1877.
I'll ask you again. Were the Western Bulldogs started as a football club in 1877, 1925 or 1997?
 

footyfan78

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Once again. The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the SAME club in the same way as Footscray and the Western Bulldogs are the SAME club.
Heard it all now.
You've lost the plot mate.
I think you should stick to what you know about which is your beloved Fitzroy Football Club.
As far as Brisbane Bears and now the Bulldogs you are clutching at straws.
 

Roylion

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Heard it all now.
You've lost the plot mate.
I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. I was involved in the events of 1996 as a Fitzroy shareholder.

Why don't you go and read the actual "Deed of Arrangement" reproduced in full on the Fitzroy board and educate yourself about the actualities of the so-called "merger".

Here's the link https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-deed-of-arrangement-between-fitzroy-and-brisbane.885996/

Note the definition on page 5

"Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears which will conduct the combined Club Operations of Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears following the Merger;"

AND

2. ARRANGEMENTS (page 6)

Except as provided in this Deed, nothing in this Deed will be construed or interpreted to mean that Brisbane Bears will assume any liability for the debts or obligations of Fitzroy or that the Brisbane Bears will have any input in the ongoing management of Fitzroy after the Merger Date.

6. BRISBANE BEARS' CHANGE OF NAME (page 10)
Brisbane Bears shall arrange for a general meeting to be held at which a special resolution will be proposed to change the company name of Brisbane Bears to "Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Limited" and Brisbane Bears shall use its best endeavours to obtain such approval.

(page 10)
after the end of the 1996 Season and on or before the Merger Date, Fitzroy will cease its Fitzroy Operations, terminate the membership of its Appointee of AFL (appointed pursuant to AFL's constituent documents) and surrender its AFL Licence and release AFL from all claims connected with its AFL Licence and such termination and surrender.

(page 10-11)
a) The Merged Club [see definition of 'merged club" above which is Brisbane Bears"] will trade as Brisbane Lions Australian Football Club and subject to the passing of the special resolution referred to in clause 6, the Merged Club (see Definition of 'Merged Club' above....in other words the "Brisbane Bears") will be re-named "Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Limited"

[
This vote to change the name was taken by Brisbane Bears members only]. In other words the Brisbane Bears members are just re-branding their existing club which continues on. (now as the Brisbane Lions)

I think you should stick to what you know about which is your beloved Fitzroy Football Club.
If you had bothered to read what I've already sad I am a current Brisbane Lions member and have been so since 1997. In 1997 I became a member of the Brisbane Bears Football Club (rebranded as the Brisbane Lions). I am still a member of that very same club.

If a "merger" took place that was a combination of both entities to form a new entity, how can Fitzroy Football Club still exist in its own right? That Fitzroy Football Club does exist in its own right was confirmed beyond doubt by the Supreme Court of Victoria in 2010.

This then means the Brisbane Bears are the SAME club as the Brisbane Lions. No new entity was ever formed.

As far as Brisbane Bears and now the Bulldogs you are clutching at straws.
And you don't know what you're talking about. I've explained it all in my previous post explaining the how and why. Go back and read it. Then read it again carefully. Then you can ask me questions.
 

footyfan78

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I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. I was involved in the events of 1996 as a Fitzroy shareholder.
We are talking about 1987 and Brisbane Bears starting out from scratch. You have got yourself confused. This is why I actually do know what I am talking about because unlike you I actually understood what the origin of your misunderstanding is from. I am sure you are aware of Fitzroy run of events but that is not what this disagreement is about. You simply do not get that Brisbane Bears is the club that started out from scratch in 1987 and confused your right love of Fitzroy with Brisbane Bears own story and how their paths crossed to the horrible events in 1997 that saw the entity of Brisbane Lions come about.
 

Roylion

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We are talking about 1987 and Brisbane Bears starting out from scratch. You have got yourself confused. This is why I actually do know what I am talking about because unlike you I actually understood what the origin of your misunderstanding is from. I am sure you are aware of Fitzroy run of events but that is not what this disagreement is about. You simply do not get that Brisbane Bears is the club that started out from scratch in 1987 and confused your right love of Fitzroy with Brisbane Bears own story and how their paths crossed to the horrible events in 1997 that saw the entity of Brisbane Lions come about.
I'm afraid you're the one confused.

All that happened in 1997 is the Brisbane Bears re-branded themselves from Bears to Lions. You haven't any evidence to the contrary. The 1997 Deed of Arrangement signed between the Brisbane Bears and the AFL confirms that the Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are in fact the SAME club. The Supreme Court of Victoria confirmed the same in 2010 and the Brisbane Lions themselves confirmed that they were the same club as the Brisbane Bears in that very court case.

The Brisbane Bears / Lions were founded in November 1986 and took the field for the first time in 1987. Next year will be their thirtieth anniversary as a football club.

Just as Footscray is the same club as the Western Bulldogs.
 

Gibbke

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Heard it all now.
You've lost the plot mate.
I think you should stick to what you know about which is your beloved Fitzroy Football Club.
As far as Brisbane Bears and now the Bulldogs you are clutching at straws.
Nah...dude, you're a very respectable poster, even for a Carlton supporter, and you've seen a lot, but you need to retire graciously...you don't realise exactly how hard you've been unceremoniously belted here...! Roylions' assertions are bone solid facts based upon legal documents he helped create, and the logic would be sound even if this stuff didn't exist...
 

Roylion

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There is no confusion mate. Very clear it was Brisbane Bears formed from scratch in 1987. It really is pure and simple.
The Brisbane Bears (now called the Brisbane Lions). Thirty years old next season.

Same club...just as 'Footscray' and the 'Western Bulldogs' are the same club.
 

footyfan78

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Nah...dude, you're a very respectable poster, even for a Carlton supporter, and you've seen a lot, but you need to retire graciously...you don't realise exactly how hard you've been unceremoniously belted here...! Roylions' assertions are bone solid facts based upon legal documents he helped create, and the logic would be sound even if this stuff didn't exist...
Think you are missing the actual point mate. Whatever Roylions well meaning crusade to keep the identity of Fitzroy alive is not even an issue from my point. Have not bothered reading when I can see not addressing the clear point of what the Brisbane Lions club themselves say. Even put the clear link that club has of the last game of Brisbane Bears. Which was ignored despite make it pure and simple the Brisbane football club that was known as Brisbane Bears was started up from scratch. There is nothing else to it.

Fitzroy story is not the Bears story despite the league manipulating what become of both at end of 1996.
The point is about 1987. In 1987 there were the Brisbane Bears and Fitzroy. The are different clubs.
Brisbane Lions entity was something engineered by AFL a decade later.
 

The_Wookie

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Think you are missing the actual point mate. Whatever Roylions well meaning crusade to keep the identity of Fitzroy alive is not even an issue from my point. Have not bothered reading when I can see not addressing the clear point of what the Brisbane Lions club themselves say. Even put the clear link that club has of the last game of Brisbane Bears. Which was ignored despite make it pure and simple the Brisbane football club that was known as Brisbane Bears was started up from scratch. There is nothing else to it.
Thats not true. The disagreement starts here.

Disagree mate. To try to say all that happened up at Brisbane was a rebranding is simply not the correct description. It was an AFL merger to manipulate Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears into a merged club called the Brisbane Lions ever since. That certainly means only Brisbane Bears were formed from scratch. Both the histories of the two clubs that were different clubs before, been carried on by the merged Brisbane Lions. To me it is like in South Australia Woodville and West Torrens merged into one club. A rebranding is more like Footscray calling themselves Western Bulldogs or North Melbourne for a few years tried to brand themselves only as Kangaroos.
Brisbane Bears were formed in 1987. Not Brisbane Lions. Brisbane Bears were merged to a club now known as Brisbane Lions from 1997 season.
Roylions point - and mine - is that the Bears and the Lions as they are now, are the same club. The Lions themselves segregate their history into the Fitzroy Lions/Brisbane bears/Brisbane Lions categories for playing records, but the club as an organisation - as shown by ASIC for a start - which specifically states that the Brisbane Bears - Fitzroy Lions Football Club Limited was formerly identifed as the Brisbane Bears Football Club Limited - is the same one that existed since 1987 with a change of brand and the addition of a few bits and pieces. Fitzroy as an organisation was never folded into Brisbane - and continues separately to this day. Thats literally it - ergo, the Brisbane Lions =/= the Brisbane Bears at an organisational level.
 

footyfan78

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The Brisbane Bears (now called the Brisbane Lions). Thirty years old next season.

Same club...just as 'Footscray' and the 'Western Bulldogs' are the same club.
You are getting closer to a more accurate history here but not acknowledged the fullness of 1987 in history.
We both know football clubs have existed up in Brisbane for thirty years.
From 1987 the Brisbane Bears were set up from scratch. Which is my very simple point you are losing plot over.
In 1997 a new entity engineered from the licences of the previous two football clubs of Brisbane Bears and Fitzroy got put in place by the league to be known as the Brisbane Lions. The history of both those clubs is acknowledged by the Brisbane Lions since as a football club and has adopted into the new entity.

Trying to make it seem the equivalent as Footscray Football Club simply running their football name as Western Bulldogs is simply football story telling alchemy to rewrite history.
 
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