If you agree with the pre-emptive doctrine for the war on Iraq...

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littleduck said:
Perhaps neither is truly justified and the large grey area in the middle was in play? ie UN processes becoming unacceptably ineffective, and the US acting unilaterally against the wishes of the UN.

If the UNSC had been united. If the French and the Russians had been totally on board and using all the backdoor diplomatic pressure they could command - while at the same time leaving Saddam in no doubt they would back the military option if necessary - then there would have been insurmountable pressure on Saddam, his odious sons and his key Baathist henchman to go into voluntary exile in Libya or some other sympathetic Arab state and the war would never have happened

Instead the French and the Russians were so hopelessly compromised by their backdoor arms and oil deals with Saddam and by the fact that they'd been assisting Saddam to rort the UN Oil for Food Program - all of which was meticulously documented by the Iraqis as useful future blackmail - that they did the opposite - fed Saddam's delusions that he could avoid complying with the UN sanctions AND avoid a war with the US and UK.

He was also assisted in these delusions by the massive anti War demos in the West which would have led him to the belief that the UK at least would not stay the distance.

Personally, even though it would have avoided a war, and this ongoing jihadist war, I don't think the outcome would have been been good for Iraq. It would have left the basic Baathist infrastructure intact and the Baathist Army and security forces, and I can't imagine we would have seen these elections this year or any sort of democratic framework for the country.

The Iraqis and the Americans have had to pay a big blood price for the removal of Saddam, but that has just re-inforced their determination to make this democratic, federal Iraq work.
 
GuruJane said:
If the UNSC had been united. If the French and the Russians had been totally on board and using all the backdoor diplomatic pressure they could command - while at the same time leaving Saddam in no doubt they would back the military option if necessary - then there would have been insurmountable pressure on Saddam, his odious sons and his key Baathist henchman to go into voluntary exile in Libya or some other sympathetic Arab state and the war would never have happened

Instead the French and the Russians were so hopelessly compromised by their backdoor arms and oil deals with Saddam and by the fact that they'd been assisting Saddam to rort the UN Oil for Food Program - all of which was meticulously documented by the Iraqis as useful future blackmail - that they did the opposite - fed Saddam's delusions that he could avoid complying with the UN sanctions AND avoid a war with the US and UK.

He was also assisted in these delusions by the massive anti War demos in the West which would have led him to the belief that the UK at least would not stay the distance.
Yes.. exactly what I am trying to say!!!
 

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GuruJane said:
Sorry - have only been reading selectively since I don't bother with your interlocutor ... anyway, does that summarise it?

:rolleyes:
 
littleduck said:
i noticed.. :confused:

Gave him a go initially, but JM has revealed sheer nastiness at times to people which can't be put down simply to his age and ego and amazing sense of self importance,imo. Also he seems to be amazingly obtuse when other posters send him up mercilessly ??? It's quite embarrassing and I don't like reading it. He's the only poster here whose posts I scroll over and I suspect others have him on Ignore ... maybe if he issued a general apology, who knows ...
 
GuruJane said:
Gave him a go initially, but JM has revealed sheer nastiness at times to people which can't be put down simply to his age and ego and amazing sense of self importance,imo. Also he seems to be amazingly obtuse when other posters send him up mercilessly ??? It's quite embarrassing and I don't like reading it. He's the only poster here whose posts I scroll over and I suspect others have him on Ignore ... maybe if he issued a general apology, who knows ...

GuruJane speaking of age, ego and self-importance. Oh, the irony! :eek:

Of course, if she had any interest in a reasonable debate, as I have been having with littleduck, she would not have such a childish attitude. Methinks it comes down to Jane hating the fact that I've called her on her glaring factual inaccuracies so many times before... :eek:
 

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