Opinion If you could, would you reward the side who finishes top of the ladder as the grand final host?

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Coolangatta

Norm Smith Medallist
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Also someone's probably done this already but I can't be bothered checking the whole thread, so it would have been:

2020: Vic (but QLD cause corona lol): ? v ?
2019: WA: Richmond v GWS
2018: Vic: West Coast v Collingwood
2017: Vic: Adelaide v Richmond
2016: Vic: Sydney v Bulldogs
2015: Vic: West Coast v Hawthorn
2014: Vic: Sydney v Hawthorn
2013: NSW: Hawthorn v Fremantle
2012: Vic: Hawthorn v Sydney
2011: Vic: Collingwood v Geelong
2010: Vic: Collingwood v St Kilda
2009: Vic: St Kilda v Geelong
2008: Vic: Geelong v Hawthorn
2007: WA: Geelong v Port Adelaide
2006: NSW: West Coast v Sydney
2005: SA: West Coast v Sydney
2004: QLD: Port Adelaide v Brisbane
2003: QLD: Collingwood v Brisbane
2002: QLD: Brisbane v Collingwood
2001: Vic: Essendon v Brisbane
2000: Vic: Essendon v Melbourne


Only three times in 20 years when the host state wouldn't have had a competing team, each of them in SA (2002, 2003, 2005). That's pretty good.

11 in Victoria, 6 in SA, 2 NSW, 2 WA, 0 Queensland.

Interesting. This is what the reigning premier version would look like, following the logic of, "To be the best, you have to beat the best on their home deck".

I think you'd have some different premiers, though, like Lions vs. Port 2004 at the Gabba might have had a different result. Possibly Hawthorn vs. Freo in NSW.
 

Final Siren

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I think you'd have some different premiers, though, like Lions vs. Port 2004 at the Gabba might have had a different result. Possibly Hawthorn vs. Freo in NSW.
Port won 2004 by 40 points - home advantage isn't anywhere near that large, even in the home & away season. I don't think any would be different. Not even 2005 or 2006 change.
 

Coolangatta

Norm Smith Medallist
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I'd scrap all the s**t that makes the grand final impossible to schedule a week out and base the venue on the selection of the highest-ranked preliminary final winner. All sides except 8th would nominate their grand final destination choice, and the highest-ranked preliminary final winner gets the venue of their choice.
 

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Moving the grand final from place to place makes the grand final of an individual season no fairer. The best way to do that is make the grand final venue as neutral as possible. Given all clubs usually play at least a handful of games at the mcg each season it is in the box seat to be the one that can be the most neutral.
The MCG is as neutral as practical for a permanent hpome. But even then, small Vic and non-Vic teams often don't play enough games there for it to be considered neutral. If there is to be a "home of the grand final" every team should be playing at least three games there for acclimatisation in case they make it.

I'd much rather see it moved depending on who is playing.
Two Vic teams or two non-Vic teams from different states, MCG. Smaller Vic teams stil have a disadvantage, if they don't get MCG games, but at least its not a travelling one.
Vic team v WA team, or Crows v Power, Adelaide.
Vic v SA/NSW/Qld team, or Eagles v Dockers, Perth.
SCG and Gabba wouldn't be neutral either for NSW or Qld derby GFs.

Of course, corporates and the "entertainment" bookings are a bit of an issue with only a wek's notice. But if the few actual fans that can get tickets are expected organise themselves in that time, so can the corporates.
 
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The MCG is as neutral as practical for a permanent hpome. But even then, small Vic and non-Vic teams often don't play enough games there for it to be considered neutral. If there is to be a "home of the grand final" every team should be playing at least three games there for acclimatisation in case they make it.

I'd much rather see it moved depending on who is playing.
Two Vic teams or two non-Vic teams from different states, MCG. Smaller Vic teams stil have a disadvantage, if they don't get MCG games, but at least its not a travelling one.
Vic team v WA team, or Crows v Power, Adelaide.
Vic v SA/NSW/Qld team, or Eagles v Dockers, Perth.
SCG and Gabba wouldn't be neutral either for NSW or Qld derby GFs.

Of course, corporates and the "entertainment" bookings are a bit of an issue with only a wek's notice. But if the few actual fans that can get tickets are expected organise themselves in that time, so can the corporates.
The only way you can make it fairer then the mcg by moving the game is if you only dertermine where the grand final will be played after the prelims and choose it at a neutral venue to both teams. If not a number of grand final results will be due to luck from where the grand final is played.

adelaide crows playing a grand final in adelaide against collingwood is a much much greater advantage to the crows then the pies playing the crows at the mcg. far more crow supporters will make it to the mcg then pies supporters to adelaide oval. Plus crows play more games per year at the mcg then pies play at adelaide.
 

Coolangatta

Norm Smith Medallist
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The only way you can make it fairer then the mcg by moving the game is if you only dertermine where the grand final will be played after the prelims and choose it at a neutral venue to both teams. If not a number of grand final results will be due to luck from where the grand final is played.

adelaide crows playing a grand final in adelaide against collingwood is a much much greater advantage to the crows then the pies playing the crows at the mcg. far more crow supporters will make it to the mcg then pies supporters to adelaide oval. Plus crows play more games per year at the mcg then pies play at adelaide.

But I suppose that if in that scenario, Adelaide finishes higher than Collingwood, they deserve the advantage, no? I know the AFL is not the premier league, but I'd like to see some reward for finishing top of the ladder and I think this is it.
 
In theory yes. In practice with a unequal fixture it's not inherently fair that the top team is host. When you add in things like the current (ridiculous IMO) handicap based system you would be pretty pissed off if you finished second to a team that had say a bottom 4 fixture from the last year and had to play them in the Grand Final at their home...

If the draw was equal then maybe but not as it stands.

Exactly.
 

Ron The Bear

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Let's say the ladder going into the last h&a round is

Brisbane 64 125%
Collingwood 64 125%
Port Adelaide 60 135%
West Coast 56 120%
Richmond 52 115%
Carlton 52 105%
...

R23
Brisbane v Port Adelaide
West Coast v Carlton
Collingwood v Richmond

Brisbane wins by 40 points, West Coast wins by 20 points. Richmond can't go up or down, makes some late changes and rests sore players, Collingwood wins by 50 to take top spot and the GF is at the MCG.

Are we all happy with that?
 

Coolangatta

Norm Smith Medallist
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In theory yes. In practice with a unequal fixture it's not inherently fair that the top team is host. When you add in things like the current (ridiculous IMO) handicap based system you would be pretty pissed off if you finished second to a team that had say a bottom 4 fixture from the last year and had to play them in the Grand Final at their home...



Exactly.

Then change the fixturing. 23 rounds, 5 double-up games based on 1-6, 7-12, and 13-18. Plus a rivalry double-up.
 
Then change the fixturing. 23 rounds, 5 double-up games based on 1-6, 7-12, and 13-18. Plus a rivalry double-up.

Personally in the absence of true H&A I'd probably prefer a continually rotating fixture (play everyone 5 times over 3 years or whatever it works out to) - no mess, no fuss, no playing certain teams a heap more over others. All teams to play at all grounds, no Geelong indemnity if you're a big club, no constant travel to Tasmania if you're Freo / WC / Sydney etc.

Your approach is reasonable as well though.
 

Coolangatta

Norm Smith Medallist
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Personally in the absence of true H&A I'd probably prefer a continually rotating fixture (play everyone 5 times over 3 years or whatever it works out to) - no mess, no fuss, no playing certain teams a heap more over others. All teams to play at all grounds, no Geelong indemnity if you're a big club, no constant travel to Tasmania if you're Freo / WC / Sydney etc.

Your approach is reasonable as well though.

I'd like to see a game in Tasmania and the NT every fortnight, rotated among clubs. I like the idea of rotating non-traditional grounds among all clubs, so if they have games in Cairns, Ballarat, Geelong, wherever else, everyone's got to play there at some point. I think your way would be pretty good, and the opening season fixture should be at the reigning premiers home ground versus a club of their choice.
 
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I would say no, mainly because the draw is lopsided.

But also would throw up some unusual conundrums, what happens if fourth beats first, but then first place goes through the semi and then wins the prelim and meets fourth back in the GF, which one is considered the higher ranked team?

I think most people would think that 4th had taken over first's top ranking by beating them in week 1 of finals and hence deserved top billing for hosting rights.

If that is the case then what about

fourth v third is the GF, both teams beating 1st and 2nd in QF's, who is the higher ranked, finishing ladder position or the fact that fourth beat First, and third only beat second? If this holds true then finishing fourth could be a better position than finishing third as it gives you first crack at GF hosting rights with a win in week 1.

What about if third and fourth both win their QF's, and then both lose the prelims to First and Second, does HGA go to First because they finished higher on the ladder, or to second because they beat fourth who had taken over first spot by beating first.

Which ever way they went its going to be a nightmare with these types of scenarios.

Too many ifs buts and maybes for me.
 
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Coolangatta

Norm Smith Medallist
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I would say no, mainly because the draw is lopsided.

But also would throw up some unusual conundrums, what happens if fourth beats first, but then first place goes through the semi and then wins the prelim and meets fourth back in the GF, which one is considered the higher ranked team?

I think most people would think that 4th had taken over first's top ranking by beating them in week 1 of finals and hence deserved top billing for hosting rights.

If that is the case then what about

fourth v third is the GF, both teams beating 1st and 2nd in QF's, who is the higher ranked, finishing ladder position or the fact that fourth beat First, and third only beat second? If this holds true then finishing fourth could be a better position than finishing third as it gives you first crack at GF hosting rights with a win in week 1.

What about if second and fourth both win their QF's, and then both lose the prelims to First and Second, does HGA go to First because they finished higher on the ladder, or to second because they beat fourth who had taken over first spot by beating first.


Which ever way they went its going to be a nightmare with these types of scenarios.

Too many ifs buts and maybes for me.

And for that reason, 2nd or 3rd would get GF hosting rights. 3rd should have more value than 4th, in that you need top 3 to have a realistic chance of hosting a GF, with 4th only guaranteeing you a double chance barring rare scenarios of a 5-8 side playing against them in a GF.

First gets the home GF because 1st moves to 3rd if they lose the qualifying final, not 4th, giving them an advantage over finishing 2nd. Both sides have to beat 1st to make the GF, so it's the same result in the end, only in different finals. 3rd is more deserving for finishing higher even though it's "easier" for them to win a home prelim than away QF.

Though I see your point.

Alternatively, you could have a neutral GF or award it based on H&A rankings. If 4th is the real deal then beat 1st on their home ground again to certify your status as the deserving premiers, prove it wasn't a fluke. H&A results should mean something, not a possible one-off bad final from the top side who were perhaps flying most year-round.
 
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Oct 3, 2009
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And for that reason, 2nd or 3rd would get GF hosting rights. 3rd should have more value than 4th, in that you need top 3 to have a realistic chance of hosting a GF, with 4th only guaranteeing you a double chance barring rare scenarios of a 5-8 side playing against them in a GF.

First gets the home GF because 1st moves to 3rd if they lose the qualifying final, not 4th, giving them an advantage over finishing 2nd. Both sides have to beat 1st to make the GF, so it's the same result in the end, only in different finals. 3rd is more deserving for finishing higher even though it's "easier" for them to win a home prelim than away QF.

Though I see your point.

Alternatively, you could have a neutral GF or award it based on H&A rankings. If 4th is the real deal then beat 1st on their home ground again to certify your status as the deserving premiers, prove it wasn't a fluke. H&A results should mean something, not a possible one-off bad final from the top side who were perhaps flying most year-round.

I think its going to be almost impossible to actually write a set of rules that doesn't come with contradictions that could get a counter intuitive result. Which ever way you wrote the rules there would be real life scenarios that didn't seem fair or logical, and people would still complain.
 

Coolangatta

Norm Smith Medallist
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I think its going to be almost impossible to actually write a set of rules that doesn't come with contradictions that could get a counter intuitive result. Which ever way you wrote the rules there would be real life scenarios that didn't seem fair or logical, and people would still complain.

That's true. I'm still not happy about the grand final being at the MCG every year, though. I would like each club to nominate their preferred grand final destination and if they finish 1st, they get it if they make it, but if not, it's at the G.
 

Frank Grimes

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Or would you rotate the grand final among the states, where Victoria gets it every second year, WA and SA every six years, and NSW and QLD every 12 years. My only objection to rotating would be that it'd be a shame if a grand final between Fremantle and West Coast fell at the SCG, Adelaide vs. Port GF at the Gabba etc., instead of the teams home state.

You could argue the same for two Victorian sides at the MCG, but at the latest, you'd have to determine the GF venue before the first round of finals.
Unfortunately there is currently a long term contract with the MCG.

However, I believe the GF should ideally be played in the state the highest ranked preliminary final winner.

I'm not sure of the practicality of hosting GF on short niticr as mentioned in this thread, but that is the ideal way.
 
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M Malice

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No no no no no! Can you imagine a Grand Final at Metricon or Giants Stadium, capacity around 25,000 :eek:.

Leave it at the MCG until the next global pandemic.
 

Coolangatta

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No no no no no! Can you imagine a Grand Final at Metricon or Giants Stadium, capacity around 25,000 :eek:.

Leave it at the MCG until the next global pandemic.

Understandable point.

I wouldn't have an issue with the grand final being at the SCG, the Gabba, Optus, or Adelaide Oval, but it'd be unfair for Geelong, GWS, and the Gold Coast to be told, "No, you can't play at your home ground, but the other clubs can." The compromise is to give Geelong, the Suns and Giants a choice between five venues. I'm sure Geelong wouldn't mind playing a grand final at the MCG, and I'm sure the Suns and Giants would still want to play there. Well, if GWS didn't have to play Richmond at the MCG...
 

M Malice

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Understandable point.

I wouldn't have an issue with the grand final being at the SCG, the Gabba, Optus, or Adelaide Oval, but it'd be unfair for Geelong, GWS, and the Gold Coast to be told, "No, you can't play at your home ground, but the other clubs can." The compromise is to give Geelong, the Suns and Giants a choice between five venues. I'm sure Geelong wouldn't mind playing a grand final at the MCG, and I'm sure the Suns and Giants would still want to play there. Well, if GWS didn't have to play Richmond at the MCG...
I'm a traditionalist when it comes to the GF, I'd prefer it was at the MCG forever, it would be like taking the Masters away from Augusta or Wimbledon away for Wimbledon.

Moot discussion anyway, contract has been signed for it to be at the MCG for the next 30+ years, I'll be pushing up daisies by then.
 

Coolangatta

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Hmm. Well, I think interstate sides should play all their games against Victorian sides at the MCG for maximum ground exposure, but then that screws up the Marvel contract.
 

Bob Neil

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VIC has 10 out of 18 teams so can host the GF two out of three times. The others rotate thru WA, SA, QLD and NSW. That way every footy fan has a reasonable opportunity to attend a granny every decade or so...assuming tickets are made available to the public.
 

Wardy09

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2 comps. Victorian Comp and outside Victoria comp (add 2 teams). Both comps have a GF then a major GF between 2 comp winners. Major Grand final rotated. Or not.
 
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