Society/Culture If you were on Newstart, how would you spend your $40 a day?

cartwright

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And he is where the lines get blurred. The agencies are there to assist people on finding work. Not to guarantee them that they will find them work which is what a lot of people think. If they can find you work well and good but its not 100% for every job seeker that that is what is going to happen. As for suspending people the guidelines are clear as to what they have to do through centrelnk.
Who said anything about a guarantee? We’re talking about a broken system that is working to suspend people so they don’t receive payments.

So you’d be cool with losing payments because you were told to go to an appointment 24hrs after the event?
 

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Goroyals22

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I’d would love to see the circumstances of that allegation as you can’t back date appointments in the Centrelink system and any appointments that have been booked should have had a reminder sent 24 hours before the appt time.... never mind the fact that under the new system there’s a job seeker diary whereby times for work, medical appts and other things can be blocked through myGov by the jobseeker so providers can’t book appts at those times. It’s again apart of the mutual obligations and if job seekers can’t or won’t find out how to prevent suspensions then it’s their own fault.


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Wealth distribution Australia 2018.JPG


Top 1% OWN 22.9% of Australia's wealth
Top 10% own 52.3%
Bottom 50% own 9.5%

The mean income is often used by politicians to sell their policy programs - especially when talking about tax cuts to "middle" Australia or the average income earner. This can be misleading. The mean income in Australia is about $85,000 per year but this figure is skewered due to the high income brackets. Barely 28% of Workers earn $85k or more.

The median income better reflects what "half" of Australian workers earn and is about $44k for those who file tax returns. If you include All Australians in the median income, you get a figure of about $28,000 per year. So half of Australia's people survive on $28,000 per year or less.

As independent economist Saul Eslake put it: “If Bill Gates walks into a bar full of ordinary Australians, the mean income of the room has suddenly gone up a lot; but the median income hasn’t changed at all.”

In Australia today, there are approximately 2.2 million people living below the poverty line (ie $13,500 per year).

And those on Newstart allowances are essentially living in poverty.

Australia is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet and yet has serious poverty issues. Australia like a good obedient little puppy dog continues to follow the US model and we all know where that will lead don't we?

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DaRick

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And he is where the lines get blurred. The agencies are there to assist people on finding work. Not to guarantee them that they will find them work which is what a lot of people think. If they can find you work well and good but its not 100% for every job seeker that that is what is going to happen. As for suspending people the guidelines are clear as to what they have to do through centrelnk.
Agree 100%, but my experiences with Jobactive (which in fairness were some years back), suggests that in practice they can't often do this because the employment consultants are overworked and lack genuine recruitment and business expertise. DES is better but the same problems are often still apparent.

I’d would love to see the circumstances of that allegation as you can’t back date appointments in the Centrelink system and any appointments that have been booked should have had a reminder sent 24 hours before the appt time.... never mind the fact that under the new system there’s a job seeker diary whereby times for work, medical appts and other things can be blocked through myGov by the jobseeker so providers can’t book appts at those times. It’s again apart of the mutual obligations and if job seekers can’t or won’t find out how to prevent suspensions then it’s their own fault.


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myGov IMO isn't particularly user-friendly and older job seekers in particular may need help negotiating it. Is this assistance provided?

So, our unemployed won't work in an abattoir ,because of a plethora of excuses being thrown around here.
Nor will they work in the rural sector full-stop. Because...excuses.
Now we have to, yet again, expand our backpacker visa scheme to fill a yawning gap in labour requirements and availability.
There's already 150,000 overseas backpackers filling the gap!!
Get off your arse and get a job you bludgers!
I've spoken to a few people who used to work in meatworks and they told me some pretty disturbing stories.

With respect, I reckon that 90% of people (foreigners and Australians alike) couldn't work in one for long without developing physical/psychological issues - so IMO there's probably not much point relocating to work in one unless it's relatively close by (like in a neighbouring town). I'm ignoring issues like cultural fit as well because I'm not sure how relevant that is in meatworks (it matters in professional environments).

RE the rural sector, there's IMO nothing wrong with relocating to work there, provided that the work is stable, suitable and paid well enough to offset any cost (financial and otherwise) of relocating. My understanding could be entirely wrong, but I was under the impression that backpackers were drafted in for seasonal, minimum wage work - which I don't think a reasonable person would relocate for because you lose too much of your money relocating back and forth.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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Agree 100%, but my experiences with Jobactive (which in fairness were some years back), suggests that in practice they can't often do this because the employment consultants are overworked and lack genuine recruitment and business expertise. DES is better but the same problems are often still apparent.
As has been pointed out previously the 'jobseeker' agencies are mostly outsourced Centrelink compliance units. They provide negligible assistance in finding employment but merely enforce the stupid requirement to apply for 22 jobs per month and attend a fortnightly meeting. This was brought home to me when my Newstart claim was initially rejected - at which point my relationship with the job agency was ended by Centrelink.

myGov IMO isn't particularly user-friendly and older job seekers in particular may need help negotiating it. Is this assistance provided?
Credit where it's due, the ATO side of MyGov is excellent. It has become easier and easier to complete your annual tax return.

But the Centrelink part of it is hopeless. They push people to use it and it kinda looks like it has useful functionality. But none of it actually works. Making a new Newstart claim doesn't work. Supplying requested information gets no response. Making an online complaint gets no response. The stated status of each claim is useless - mine became 'Rejected' with no reason given, it's currently at 'Completed' but no outcome in terms of eligibility communicated.

So at every point in the many failures of this process you have to call them, with an approximate wait time of 30 minutes, or make your way to a Centrelink office - drive time + approximate wait time 1 hour - then tell them the same information that you told them 6 weeks ago.
 

Nuggs Bunny

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I do wonder to what extent the user-friendliness of the system would be improved by a UBI, my guess is infinitely. We already practically spend the equivalent of $10,000 per person, for every Australian citizen, in the social security budget as it is, not exactly good value for money.
 

DaRick

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As has been pointed out previously the 'jobseeker' agencies are mostly outsourced Centrelink compliance units. They provide negligible assistance in finding employment but merely enforce the stupid requirement to apply for 22 jobs per month and attend a fortnightly meeting. This was brought home to me when my Newstart claim was initially rejected - at which point my relationship with the job agency was ended by Centrelink.
Yes, I concur.

It used to be Centrelink that enforced compliance but in his eternal wisdom Abbott outsourced that function to the job agencies, increasing their workload and making them even less capable of assisting job-seekers with finding employment.
 

Goroyals22

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As has been pointed out previously the 'jobseeker' agencies are mostly outsourced Centrelink compliance units. They provide negligible assistance in finding employment but merely enforce the stupid requirement to apply for 22 jobs per month and attend a fortnightly meeting. This was brought home to me when my Newstart claim was initially rejected - at which point my relationship with the job agency was ended by Centrelink.



Credit where it's due, the ATO side of MyGov is excellent. It has become easier and easier to complete your annual tax return.

But the Centrelink part of it is hopeless. They push people to use it and it kinda looks like it has useful functionality. But none of it actually works. Making a new Newstart claim doesn't work. Supplying requested information gets no response. Making an online complaint gets no response. The stated status of each claim is useless - mine became 'Rejected' with no reason given, it's currently at 'Completed' but no outcome in terms of eligibility communicated.

So at every point in the many failures of this process you have to call them, with an approximate wait time of 30 minutes, or make your way to a Centrelink office - drive time + approximate wait time 1 hour - then tell them the same information that you told them 6 weeks ago.
Why is the job search requirements stupid?? If it’s set at 22 ( which I don’t believe it would be) it’s one job a day...1... really if your keen on work you would do more than 22 a month or what the requirements is unless it’s a case of that’s not the job I want to do so I’m gonna do nothing until that job magically appears for me... hence the term dole bludger.


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DaRick

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Why is the job search requirements stupid?? If it’s set at 22 ( which I don’t believe it would be) it’s one job a day...1... really if your keen on work you would do more than 22 a month or what the requirements is unless it’s a case of that’s not the job I want to do so I’m gonna do nothing until that job magically appears for me... hence the term dole bludger.


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The real problem is that employers wind up being bombarded with applications from people who are just making up their quota.

I applied for hundreds of jobs back when I was on Centrelink FWIW. Looking at my old records, I applied for up to 200 a month.
 

Handsuper47

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Why is the job search requirements stupid?? If it’s set at 22 ( which I don’t believe it would be) it’s one job a day...1... really if your keen on work you would do more than 22 a month or what the requirements is unless it’s a case of that’s not the job I want to do so I’m gonna do nothing until that job magically appears for me... hence the term dole bludger.


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Because not only do employers get swamped with resumes like DaRick states, you could be the best candidate on paper and in person but because there's so many resumes to go through from both candidates that actually want to work and others that needing to meet their requirements, chances are very likely the employer won't go through them all. On the requirements part - not everyone is suited to be able to do all jobs as we are all different, and there's a limited amount of jobs on offer for what some people are ABLE to do, so in order for them to meet their requirements, they shoot out their resumes to any jobs, which is actually a hindrance to other people looking to get those jobs, making it more difficult for everyone else.
 

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Goroyals22

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Because not only do employers get swamped with resumes like DaRick states, you could be the best candidate on paper and in person but because there's so many resumes to go through from both candidates that actually want to work and others that needing to meet their requirements, chances are very likely the employer won't go through them all. On the requirements part - not everyone is suited to be able to do all jobs as we are all different, and there's a limited amount of jobs on offer for what some people are ABLE to do, so in order for them to meet their requirements, they shoot out their resumes to any jobs, which is actually a hindrance to other people looking to get those jobs, making it more difficult for everyone else.
So your answer is that people on the dole should do nothing and have no requirements..??
The whole too many resume thing is the biggest load of rot I’ve heard.. you put an ad on seek and then complain you get too many applicants....
tbh having worked in this industry for 6 years the bludgers don’t apply for anything and just run the gauntlet of being cut off then re-engaged with no penalty.. I don’t have the answer but unfortunately the percentage of time wasters and bludgers who feel entitled to money for nothing take up most of the time away from providers actually helping those that want to work.


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DaRick

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So your answer is that people on the dole should do nothing and have no requirements..??
Grade dole recipients based on their skills, with unskilled recipients having to apply for more jobs than professionals because there are more of the former jobs than the latter - and cap at 25 or so, with a minimum of 10. It also curtails the phenomenon that you are so sceptical about below.

The whole too many resume thing is the biggest load of rot I’ve heard.. you put an ad on seek and then complain you get too many applicants....
Hey, it happens.

tbh having worked in this industry for 6 years the bludgers don’t apply for anything and just run the gauntlet of being cut off then re-engaged with no penalty..
I guess you're talking about the people who've been within the system for years and know how to exploit administrative incompetence?

Still, how do they get re-engaged with no penalty, unless the DHS/Jobactive agency screwed up first?

I don’t have the answer but unfortunately the percentage of time wasters and bludgers who feel entitled to money for nothing take up most of the time away from providers actually helping those that want to work.
Well, these are some ideas. Staff Centrelink properly, deal with the bludgers on a case-by-case basis, and raise Newstart so that the vast majority of genuine job-seekers can survive. Also scrap WFTD and reform Jobactive if possible (if not, then also scrap). Should it be reformed, Jobactive must be made up of firms with actual business and recruitment expertise. The money saved from scrapping WFTD, plus increased GST receipts, will go a long way towards paying for increasing Newstart. Then re-assess.
 

Goroyals22

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Grade dole recipients based on their skills, with unskilled recipients having to apply for more jobs than professionals because there are more of the former jobs than the latter - and cap at 25 or so, with a minimum of 10. It also curtails the phenomenon that you are so sceptical about below.



Hey, it happens.



I guess you're talking about the people who've been within the system for years and know how to exploit administrative incompetence?

Still, how do they get re-engaged with no penalty, unless the DHS/Jobactive agency screwed up first?



Well, these are some ideas. Staff Centrelink properly, deal with the bludgers on a case-by-case basis, and raise Newstart so that the vast majority of genuine job-seekers can survive. Also scrap WFTD and reform Jobactive if possible (if not, then also scrap). Should it be reformed, Jobactive must be made up of firms with actual business and recruitment expertise. The money saved from scrapping WFTD, plus increased GST receipts, will go a long way towards paying for increasing Newstart. Then re-assess.
So because you have more skills than others you shouldn’t have to lower yourself to do menial tasks even though these still pay better than the dole??? Yeah that will work...

It’s got nothing to do with exploiting administrative incompetence it’s the way Centrelink is set up that the second someone is cut off even if they cop an 8 week non payment period they can cry poor and get their benefits straight back on the basis they can’t survive without the dole so overall there is no deterrent for non compliance.

So u want less job search and no work for the dole?? So less requirements to receive more money?? If anything the dole should be lowered further to push people towards work not raised so more people
Decide f it.. I’m going to do nothing at all....


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DaRick

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So because you have more skills than others you shouldn’t have to lower yourself to do menial tasks even though these still pay better than the dole??? Yeah that will work...
I never said that, nor implied it. By all means take up whatever suitable work you can to get off the Dole.

I came up with the idea because in my experience cleaners, labourers and the like are unlikely to even hire former professionals in the cities anyway. It's not like cleaning firms can't hire foreigners (they often do) and even manual labour jobs are being automated.

So basically an application from someone who looks like a former professional usually gets binned.

When professionals do get menial jobs, I would be almost certain that a mate set them up.

It’s got nothing to do with exploiting administrative incompetence it’s the way Centrelink is set up that the second someone is cut off even if they cop an 8 week non payment period they can cry poor and get their benefits straight back on the basis they can’t survive without the dole so overall there is no deterrent for non compliance.
Interesting; thanks for the insight.

So u want less job search
A lesser mandatory amount for some, a higher amount for the others. If people want to apply for many more on top of that, as I did, then fine.

and no work for the dole??
Yes; think of the savings to the taxpayer. Plus it doesn't actually get people into employment.

So less requirements to receive more money?? If anything the dole should be lowered further to push people towards work not raised so more people
Decide f it.. I’m going to do nothing at all....
Congrats, you're to the right of Kevin Andrews on this issue.

If people want to live on the Dole as is, they're 1) lunatics and 2) unemployable.

Plus there are more applicants than jobs, so you'll just be punishing legitimate job-seekers. That, and the government loses the money the unemployed don't earn (consumption tax).
 
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Norm Smith Medallist
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Why is the job search requirements stupid?? If it’s set at 22 ( which I don’t believe it would be) it’s one job a day...1... really if your keen on work you would do more than 22 a month or what the requirements is unless it’s a case of that’s not the job I want to do so I’m gonna do nothing until that job magically appears for me... hence the term dole bludger.
My first appointment with the jobseeker agency the woman literally said 'you are going to find yourself applying for jobs you have no chance of getting just to be eligible for payments'. I didn't know what she meant at the time but I do now.

If you have good skills and experience then you need to be selective on your applications. So, for example in the IT field, there's no point applying to be Java developer if you are a project manager. Then they might specify you need a corporate accounting background, or banking, or government etc. If you check Seek, LinkedIn, Jora every day you end up with a fairly small list of suitable jobs to apply for. At which point you can see that there are 200 other applicants for each role.

Then you can also apply for low skilled jobs. I would take anything suitable but most times they require some relevant experience and/or will reject you because you are over-qualified. At the end of the month I applied for 16 random jobs that I had no hope of getting. The government knows about this but does not care.

 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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Grade dole recipients based on their skills, with unskilled recipients having to apply for more jobs than professionals because there are more of the former jobs than the latter - and cap at 25 or so, with a minimum of 10. It also curtails the phenomenon that you are so sceptical about below.
They kind of do assess people. I was rated at 'would probably get a job soon without assistance'. It was an acknowledgment that they would be of no use in finding me a job.

Well, these are some ideas. Staff Centrelink properly, deal with the bludgers on a case-by-case basis, and raise Newstart so that the vast majority of genuine job-seekers can survive. Also scrap WFTD and reform Jobactive if possible (if not, then also scrap). Should it be reformed, Jobactive must be made up of firms with actual business and recruitment expertise. The money saved from scrapping WFTD, plus increased GST receipts, will go a long way towards paying for increasing Newstart. Then re-assess.
  • Review the Centrelink process from start to finish to assess how it meets its commitments. As I have said the MyGov Centrelink site is useless - fix it. Assign case officers who take accountability for outcomes rather than the forever anonymous backroom buck-passing.
  • Payments should be based on needs. A teenager still living at home with no bills should get minimal amounts. Someone who has substantial mortgage/rental, gas, electricity, rates, house insurance, car should get a realistic amount to cover their needs while out of work.
  • Have a smarter, tailored approach to job seekers with different methodology used for people with little/no experience and those with good skills.
  • I hold no hope of the Jobactive providers doing anything useful. They are comprised of people who can't get a job in non-government HR jobs. As Dirty Harry said, 'Human Resources? They're assholes!'
 

Bombermania

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Does anyone here actually know many living on Newstart because they're too lazy to get a job?

I've never met anyone with that disposition other than dealers.
Not since my school days, there was a few people that during their teenage years didn't know what they wanted to do. There was one guy that spent his late teens bumming around surfing but he finished up becoming an architect and now owns a large house and drives a merc.
 

herculez09

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Not since my school days, there was a few people that during their teenage years didn't know what they wanted to do. There was one guy that spent his late teens bumming around surfing but he finished up becoming an architect and now owns a large house and drives a merc.
Yeah, I literally do not know of a single person that I've met in the past ~10 years who lives on -- or rather -- chooses to live on Newstart.

If you believe people here, you'd swear 20% of Australians are just looking to mooch off the well-to-do people for fun.
 

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