Ignore The Dalai Lama

[Mobbs]

... says China ... to us ... or else.

The Dalai Lama is visiting in May, and China has warned us that if we still want them as friends, we are to give him a wide berth.

Perhaps if China had given the Dalai Lama, and the rest of Buddhist Tibet, a wide berth, we might all have been a mite happier. China has ruthlessly captured, tortured and slaughtered pretty well as many of these folks as they could find. In fact, they're still doing it.

China is baring its muscles to Australia, attempting to interfere with how we conduct ourselves, and I'm not too keen on their interference. The blokes from Tibet preach and pray for peace and understanding and all that what-not which we'll never achieve in the near future but that nevertheless its grouse to aspire to. China preach humiliating anybody who doesn't agree with them.

I would hope the Dalai Lama gets a bit of a turnout when he lobs.

(references to China are intended to denote the powers-that-be, not the general population)

 

[Portia]

We're already the bitches of the UK & US.....why not China too?

 

[daicos4ever]

China can get f*cked!

 

[Shinboners]

I really can't see what anyone can do for Tibet. It's not as if there's any oil under those mountains, so I guess you can count out the chance of any Americans going in to liberate the oil.....er....I meant, the Tibetans.

 

[Goldenblue]

With me being a Buddist, there is no chance of that!!!!!!!

F*ck China, its non eof their business and I do not belong as a countryman of their backward oppresive country......

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by Goldenblue
With me being a Buddist, there is no chance of that!!!!!!!

F*ck China, its non eof their business and I do not belong as a countryman of their backward oppresive country......

Tibet isn't an issue of religion, it's an issue of political independence and self-determination. Buddhism only comes into it because of the Dalai Lama's religious role and everytime Richard Gere wants to put his head on the television. Don't forget that China, being a "communist" country, is officially aethiest, and while in a legal sense, religions are banned - they are still allowed to operate as long as the state has control.

The thing with Tibet and the Buddhist structure there (and the same goes for the Fulan Gong) is that they provide an alternative political structure outside of the Chinese Communist Party. Most structures outside of the party are considered threats.

The last issue, and this is from the Chinese viewpoint, is that the Chinese government have had a historical paranoia about outside influences (for instance, the English trade in opium and war with Japan). They still view India with suspicion and see Tibet as a geographic buffer to Indian influence in the region. So it's unlikely that China will ever give up Tibet without a fight. With Tibet's location and geography, it's hard to see what outside power could go into the region and free Tibet using military force.

 

[Pessimistic]

Will Don Scott be making another appearance too ?

 

[Sydneyfan]

Just thinking about Communism in China and their oppressive Government which restricts ideas outside of the official line and punishes you if you do. When do you think that Communism will collapse in China? It is inevitable or is the Chinese Communist party (and its army) so powerful and encompassing that it would not happen for several decades yet?

Lately, there's been a lot of talk about the Falun Gong religion and the Chinese Government's attempts to quash it, increased practice of Islam in defiance of the Government by Chinese Muslims in western China, ongoing human rights abuses by the Government, and the Chinese occupation of Tibet. As well as now being the increased opportunity (which the Chinese Government no doubt do their best to restrict) for the sharing of new ideas/different perspectives via the internet; and the increased international economic particpation by China, when will people stop following the Government and start following the almighty dollar (or yuan in their case).

The Beijing Olympics in 2008 are going to be a very interesting time when all the media spotlight is there. Also with transnational corporations and sponsors there hoping to get more of a foothold in China with its huge population and labour force. Should be interesting to see how the Chinese Government are going to tackle all the potential problems which the Beijing Olympics will pose. I'd say that in 2008 China will still be Communist but by 2015 (several years after the 2008 Games), there will be a non-Communist China due to a revolution (peaceful or otherwise).

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by Sydneyfan
Just thinking about Communism in China and their oppressive Government which restricts ideas outside of the official line and punishes you if you do. When do you think that Communism will collapse in China? It is inevitable or is the Chinese Communist party (and its army) so powerful and encompassing that it would not happen for several decades yet?

Well for one thing, communism doesn't really exist in China anymore. Go into China and you'll find that capitalism is flourishing rather nicely. The political structure of the communist party (read communist party=government) is still there, but not the ideological one.

My own personal view is that a one party system is the only way to rule China. Historically, the country has always been strong when there has been one ruler, and weak whenever there have been competing power structures within the country.

The thing is that China's population is something like 95% Han Chinese. However, they are separated by region, so the ones in Shanghai consider themselves to be different from the ones from Beijing, Guangzhou, Nanjing etc. And the feelings are mutual. The question is whether the whole is better served as being one national unit or whether the region is better if it is broken up (ie, the provinces become their own nation-states). My own feeling is that the country would be better served as staying the way it is.

 

[Goldenblue]

Originally posted by Shinboners


Tibet isn't an issue of religion, it's an issue of political independence and self-determination. Buddhism only comes into it because of the Dalai Lama's religious role and everytime Richard Gere wants to put his head on the television. Don't forget that China, being a "communist" country, is officially aethiest, and while in a legal sense, religions are banned - they are still allowed to operate as long as the state has control.

The thing with Tibet and the Buddhist structure there (and the same goes for the Fulan Gong) is that they provide an alternative political structure outside of the Chinese Communist Party. Most structures outside of the party are considered threats.

The last issue, and this is from the Chinese viewpoint, is that the Chinese government have had a historical paranoia about outside influences (for instance, the English trade in opium and war with Japan). They still view India with suspicion and see Tibet as a geographic buffer to Indian influence in the region. So it's unlikely that China will ever give up Tibet without a fight. With Tibet's location and geography, it's hard to see what outside power could go into the region and free Tibet using military force.

The question was to ignore the Dalai Lama. As the reincarnated prince, I shall not ignore him or the faith. As a question of politics, I care not for it. I am interested in the faith of buddism, not the politics that surround it. So, in my faith I am asked to ignore the Dalai Lama.....I think not.

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by Goldenblue


The question was to ignore the Dalai Lama. As the reincarnated prince, I shall not ignore him or the faith. As a question of politics, I care not for it. I am interested in the faith of buddism, not the politics that surround it. So, in my faith I am asked to ignore the Dalai Lama.....I think not.

That is your choice. To split hairs, the Chinese government isn't asking you to ignore the Dalai Lama - they're asking the Australian government to ignore him. It's no different to how the Chinese convince other countries to ignore the existance of Taiwan.

However, the Dalai Lama, as well as being the spiritual head of Buddhism, by virtue of his work in advocating Tibetan independence, is doing political work.

 

[Maggie Greg]

Dippers Donuts would say the Tibetans have brought it on themselves b/c they attack the Chinese soldiers in Tibet and dont obey the Chinese imposed laws. They replace the original Tibetan laws with Chinese laws so they must now be obeyed.

 

[dreamkillers]

I'd say our current political leaders will do whatever their masters in the US and UK say...........Little Johnny the puppet on a string....

 

[Mobbs]

Originally posted by Shinboners
However, the Dalai Lama, as well as being the spiritual head of Buddhism, by virtue of his work in advocating Tibetan independence, is doing political work.

Be that as it may, his need to politicise is hardly a decision made in frivolity ... sitting in another country because its his best hope of living, saying "I wish that government would stop killing us, obviously they're not interested in doing so, so I wish we weren't under their government because maybe that would stop them killing us" ... he's got two choices : politicise or do no nothing while his people are made a victim of genocide.

Originally posted by Shinboners
To split hairs, the Chinese government isn't asking you to ignore the Dalai Lama - they're asking the Australian government to ignore him.

Which, from a Chinese government point of view, would presumably mean 'incarcerate any of your people which don't travel the Australian Government's ignore the Dalai Lama bus'.

Tibet are only interested in independance because they blokes they're under the banner of are wiping them out. This is happening, not because of a wish for independence, but because of their religion. Therefore its religious genocide.

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer

Be that as it may, his need to politicise is hardly a decision made in frivolity ... sitting in another country because its his best hope of living, saying "I wish that government would stop killing us, obviously they're not interested in doing so, so I wish we weren't under their government because maybe that would stop them killing us" ... he's got two choices : politicise or do no nothing while his people are made a victim of genocide.

Perfectly true. Nothing to disagree with there.

Which, from a Chinese government point of view, would presumably mean 'incarcerate any of your people which don't travel the Australian Government's ignore the Dalai Lama bus'.

I don't agree with that. As has been seen with Taiwan, the Chinese want to politically isolate the Tibetans - that is, they want the Australian government to ignore the Dalia Lama.

Tibet are only interested in independance because they blokes they're under the banner of are wiping them out. This is happening, not because of a wish for independence, but because of their religion. Therefore its religious genocide.

Genocide is genocide whether it's on religious or racial grounds. My own belief is that the Chinese just don't want any alternative political structures, whether it's the Fulan Gong or allowing Tibetian autonomy (note, autonomy is different from independence in that autonomy would mean that Tibet remains a part of China but has its own government and makes its own decisions). But as I said earlier, unless someone finds a whole heap of oil under the Tibetan mountains, don't expect the Americans to go in anytime soon. And even then, you'd think that the Americans would turn a blind eye as long as their companies got the chance to go in and get the oil through the Chinese government.

Oddly enough, the best chance for Tibetan independence would be the spilt up of China (all the provinces become their own nations). However, that could also lead to a sort of Balkanisation of the whole region.

 

[Mobbs]

Originally posted by Shinboners
I don't agree with that. As has been seen with Taiwan, the Chinese want to politically isolate the Tibetans - that is, they want the Australian government to ignore the Dalia Lama.

Fair enough, I'm presuming too much. Still, to back up and take a different trail, its our government that's receiving the pressure, and I'm expressing my views on how I feel about my Government copping it.

Originally posted by Shinboners
Genocide is genocide whether it's on religious or racial grounds. My own belief is that the Chinese just don't want any alternative political structures, whether it's the Fulan Gong or allowing Tibetian autonomy (note, autonomy is different from independence in that autonomy would mean that Tibet remains a part of China but has its own government and makes its own decisions). But as I said earlier, unless someone finds a whole heap of oil under the Tibetan mountains, don't expect the Americans to go in anytime soon. And even then, you'd think that the Americans would turn a blind eye as long as their companies got the chance to go in and get the oil through the Chinese government.

(No argument re USA, oil, etc). Independence v autonomy is irrelevant. Tibet wouldn't even want either, if they weren't sitting there in fear for their lives day by day. If that wasn't happening, they'd be perfectly happy to be a part of China.

Originally posted by Shinboners
Oddly enough, the best chance for Tibetan independence would be the spilt up of China (all the provinces become their own nations). However, that could also lead to a sort of Balkanisation of the whole region.

Very true, on both counts.

 

[M29]

Originally posted by daicos4ever
China can get f*cked!

Haw Haw Haw!

 

[Cyclops]

As a dissident opposed to Chinese rule, the Dalai Lama is welcome in Australia, as are many dissidents. Legitimate political debate should be encouraged and we shouldn't be brow-beaten. he's not a terrorist or anything.

I only wish he wasn't the one speaking for Tibet. I find Tibetan Buddhism a bit creepy, all those devils, levitation, magic spells etc. and how come the Buddha is so sexist and racist? When was the last time Buddha was reincarnated as a black woman? He's a lot like the Pope to me, probably a decent bloke but with lots of baggage I'm not so keen on.

 

[Frodo]

I think Shinboners has an excellent grasp of the situation in China. The most pertinant comment is that China is losing it's communist tag and becoming a capatilist country. Whether that is a good thing or not I don't know because money has always been the chinese God and greed is seen more and more in China today along with a growing class society.

What the Chinese government struggles with is 'control'. They are hugely dependant upon controlled media and strong beaurocracy. Cracks are showing, to a large extent created by internet access laying foundation for questioning the government line.

But reality is that China is the singly largest developing market in the world by a long way and many opportunities and jobs are at stake. Every country knows they can ignore China's wishes, but when natural gas contracts, coal, wheat etc go elsewhere will our moral stance be good for the nation? I don't know.

 

[madboy]

One of my MartinMolloy CDs has a reference to China's ploys to discredit the Dalai Lama during one of his visits here. His birthday occured during his visit and China maintained that in order to celebrate his birthday properly, custom dictated you needed to provide "human intestines, 2 human heads and a whole human skin, or in lieu of that, a gift voucher from Brashs".

Why did the Chinese government think anybody was going to buy that?

 

[Mobbs]

Originally posted by Cyclops
I find Tibetan Buddhism a bit creepy, all those devils, levitation, magic spells etc.

That's interesting. From the books, the talks and other involvement I've had with the Gyuto monks via my wife's interest, I've seen no reference to any of these! In fact, the whole thing seems much more philosophical than it does religous.

 

[Cyclops]

Mobs you need to read the "Vehicle of the Thunderbolt" which is the third great compilation of Buddhist writings (in chronological order after the "Lesser Vehicle" and "Greater Vehicle"). There's ethnographic works by Aurel Stein and that batty Swedish chap (whose name escapes me at this point).

Prosletysing religions usually put on their "happy face" when dealing with potential converts. Read a bit closer to find the grisly bits-I mean if you judged the Pope on his press releases he sounds like a very humble tolerant person.

 

[Mobbs]

Hell, even I sound like a humble and tolerant person.