Imagine if the AFL structured the season this way ?

[Peter P]

Impressive stuff from Dan and the CEO himself. good to see the AFL's attitude these days.
Personally like others here I don't like the idea of downgrading the finals, though a bit more recognition of minor premiers is worthwhile.

Some of your original points are very worthwhile. Keeping Waverley is an interesting idea as is scrapping the Ansett Cup whilst still promoting the game through premiership matches in Tassie, Darwin, Cairns, Canberra and Wellington...perhaps even London so the end of season game there isn't such a scratch match. maybe every club should play one game at a "development venue" to keep the 30 game fixture fair.

 

[WCE2000]

Originally posted by Peter P:

Personally like others here I don't like the idea of downgrading the finals, though a bit more recognition of minor premiers is worthwhile.

Shouldn't of said that. Were now going to get 2 pages of why the finals isn't been downgraded even though everyone is telling Dan it is.

------------------
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</A>
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[This message has been edited by WCE2000 (edited 07 February 2001).]

 

[Dim24]

The Napoleon post is obviously a fake.
I know from personal experience that Blackbeard is in Room 4 of Ward D, and the 'real' Napoleon is actually from Ward C.

 

[Wayne Jackson]

I am being kind to this boy so that, should he finally snap, running amok with a semi-automatic weapon, I may be spared.

 

[RogerC]

Dan2354,

Although your letters to (and polite responses from) Wayne Jackson et al make for mouth watering reading, they don't amount to diddly squat if you don't get the results you're after. I refer you back to my last entry. Shop it around. Then write back to Wayne Jackson etc.

I dunno. Even Parkin's reply sounds like a polite brush off. Leigh Matthews' is, at best, lukewarm. At any rate, these are simply private replies to private correspondence. Show me the results, show me the ADHERENTS among the AFL hierarchies. Show me just one article in one newspaper with an influential name attached to it, that supports your views to any great extent. Then, and only then, will I resume taking your theories seriously.

By the way, do you still wear the AFL tie?

[This message has been edited by RogerC (edited 07 February 2001).]

 

[GoEagles]

Cool Dan, you got a tie out of Jacko! Reckon I should write a letter to him?

 

[Same Old's]

Originally posted by RogerC:
Show me the results, show me the ADHERENTS among the AFL hierarchies. Show me just one article in one newspaper with an influential name attached to it, that supports your views to any great extent. Then, and only then, will I resume taking your theories seriously.
[This message has been edited by RogerC (edited 07 February 2001).]

So what your saying as that you will only take Dan's "theories" seriously if somebody writes an article in the media? Do you mean someone like Mike Sheenhan?

Anyway, what's that got to with anything. Just because someone has or hasn't wrote anything in the media about does not make the proposal it more or less valid.

 

[RogerC]

Hell yeah! Even Mike Sheahan. Mike Sheahan is no hero of mine, but if he's prepared to put what credibility he has on the line for Dan24's system, I'll at least listen.

My point is that you can't just wave a couple of letters about and call that a justification. The letters don't even demonstrate unqualified support. Dan hasn't won us over with argument. He won't win us over by reproducing quotes which amount to little more than bland encouragement. Results, however, can't be ignored or argued away.

Which is not to say that you haven't made a relevant point. I think you have, and I hope I've cleared up my point of view. Incidentally, what is your opinion of Dan's proposal? I've just checked through this thread and I didn't find much.

Cheers.

 

[elt]

Originally posted by RogerC:
Results, however, can't be ignored or argued away.

I would hardly call having a journo write an article about the proposal results. The only real result Dan could provide you with from the way you are arguing would be if the AFL actually adopted the system. Uh-oh, maybe Dan's right, the public will accept whatever is given recognition

Personally I don't agree with Dan's idea but to say that you can't take it seriously until it appears in a newspaper with an influential name attached is ridiculous.

 

[Dan26]

RogerC,

I can only try my best. I've actually written tio Mike Sheahan believe it or not. I didn't get a response on the issue, but I did get a response from him, regarding a different leter I wrote in his Saturday colum, which won me a night's accomodation for two at a hotel in the city.

But just because something hasn't been adiopted by the media, doesn't make it a good idea. My idea was actually mentioned in last years Herald-Sun. All the 16 coaches were interviewed by the Herald -Sun, about improvements to the game. When the topic of finals sstem was brought up, Parkin made mention of my idea. his was about half way through last year.

 

[Hawkforce.]

I'm surprised Dan hasn't been arrested under those stalking laws!

 

[The invisible mullet]

I wonder what Wayne Jackson's direction to his secretary will be when the third Dim24 letter comes in....it was very hard not to laugh out loud when reading those "letters".

 

[Dan26]

The invisible mullet,

What are you trying to say?

 

[The invisible mullet]

I'm trying to say that I truly enjoyed reading those letters and imagining how those responses were penned. I think a third letter from you might be directed into the circular filing cabinet. You do deserve a gold star and an elephant stamp though.

 

[RogerC]

Any idea needs adherents if it is going to thrive. As Dan24 has proven beyond doubt, an idea can SURVIVE even if it has only one person to defend it, for as long as that person is prepared to do so. But, to GROW, it needs to increase the number of people that believe in it. My point about the media (admittedly not argued clearly or persuasively enough) is that by getting an article written about it, Dan would expose his thoeries to a wider audience, and perhaps muster the kind of support to put some pressure on the AFL to properly address the issue.

Please don't confuse that concept with the idea of the media bringing more credibility to an idea. Lord knows enough ludicrous and arcane ideas have been expounded and invented by our bastions of the press. However, if journalists, or tv commentators/footy personalities, at that level of exposure, with that capacity to publicise, are on board, you are one step closer to the sympathetic ear of an AFL commissioner or supremo. Which is a result of sorts, even if it is a baby step.
If I see it in a paper with someone's name attached to it, I could at least say the issue has leapt from this forum to a wider medium, which is progress. Not more credibility, just progress.

And as yet, no-one Dan has written to seems prepared, publicly, to argue his case.

Now as to elt's point, about the only result Dan being able to provide me with being if the AFL adopted the system. I should bloody well hope that is the result he's after. If he's just arguing it for the sake of debate (and I don't suggest for a moment that he is) that's just pissing in the wind.

I've said before, and I repeat, that I admire his tenacity. I'm not sure I could sustain an argument for this length of time, against such opposition. Kudos to you, Dan24. Keep up the good fight.

Cheers.

 

[ptw]

Dan

actually very impressive...

It must have been tempting not to fall into the usual style though...eg...

"Dear Mr Jackson,

thank you so much for your reply, I would just like to repond with some points.

WHAT DON'T YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND...I HAVE SAID IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN, YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT WAYNE AND I DON'T BELIEVE YOU EvEN READ MY LAST LETTER.

GIVEN THAT YOU OBVIOUSLY IGNORED MY LAST LETTER I WILL TYPE IT OUT AGAIN FOR YOU IN FULL, YOU BLOODY IDIOT.

DEAR MR JACKSON
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
SIGNED

DIM
.
.
.
.SO WHAT THE HELL DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND. GOD I HATE DEALING WITH IGNORANT FOOLS. MY SYSTEM IS RIGHT AND I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU OR YOUR BLOODY COMMISSION MATES THINK. IF YOU ARE TOO THICK TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEN YOU CAN JAM IT UP YOUR ARSE.

DIM"

ptw

[This message has been edited by ptw (edited 08 February 2001).]

 

[Dan26]

RogerC,

It's pretty easy to argue something when I know I am right. Sorry to sound arrogant, but I just "KNOW". That's just the way I feel. I'm just telling you how I feel - I won't lie to you.

For people on here to think that the only reason our GF is big is because it overrides the 22 H&A games is very, very sad. For people to think like this, shows me that they musn't have much respect for the Grand Final as an event if they think it is ONLY big because it overrides everything else -double or nothing style.

I have no doubt that the GF will continue to be the bigest match of the year under my proposal. Whether it is "AS" big as it is now, I'm not 100% sure. But I do know, that it will be the biggest individual, match of the year, given that it is a seaosn culminating event.

But the fact that the Home and away season (which comprises 176 of the 183 matches under my proposal) will be increased in recognition will be of MASSIVE value to the AFL. It's hard to exaplin how great this will be for the AFL.

Imagine this massive part of the season (176 games) actually meaning something (i.e it will determine the premier team) rather than simply being a means to an end, like it is now.

It's just so, so easy to argue from my point of view, because I just know it is the correct way to go. There are a lot of people who agree with me. Blood-stained Angel, Same Olds, Frodo and a few other can all see the logic.

I believe the ones that don't want it are like puppets. Very similar to not wanting the GST to come in, just because it is "new and different"

 

[RogerC]

Actually, I still don't want the GST.

 

[WCE2000]

the GST, as far as i know is hated by all my mates. too much paperwork, BAS statements, its all a load of sh*t as far their concerned, for my i dont care, i retired just before it came in

.

------------------
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</A>
A must for anybody into statistics - http://cromulent.freehosting.net/

 

[RogerC]

Lucky Bugger. I've just started a #@%$#%$& business.

 

[elt]

Originally posted by Dan24:
It's pretty easy to argue something when I know I am right. Sorry to sound arrogant, but I just "KNOW".

Looks like it's back to the same style of argument from Dan. We went a few days without hearing the clip clop of your high horse but now it's back.

Originally posted by Dan24:
For people on here to think that the only reason our GF is big is because it overrides the 22 H&A games is very, very sad. For people to think like this, shows me that they musn't have much respect for the Grand Final as an event if they think it is ONLY big because it overrides everything else -double or nothing style.

I'm not sure how many people have actually said this Dan. Surely you are not putting words in people's mouths? People have said that is one of the attractions for them. They have also said by removing the ultimate prize from GF day it will be devalued. They have not said the only reason it's big is because it "overrides" the other 22 weeks.

Originally posted by Dan24:
It's just so, so easy to argue from my point of view, because I just know it is the correct way to go.

Has it occured to you that maybe the people arguing against you feel the same way?

Originally posted by Dan24:
I believe the ones that don't want it are like puppets. Very similar to not wanting the GST to come in, just because it is "new and different"

Clip clop clip clop... and contrary to what you might think Dan there are some very good reasons for not having a GST. I am better off under the system but I'm not convinced people on pensions or self-funded retirees are. Not everyone opposed it just because it was "new and different" and they were puppets.

 

[Dan26]

Even if the Grand Final was devalued (and I don't necessarily think it would be), look at the benefits :

It would means that the Home and away season would CEAESE to be the "means to an end" that it is now. Instead, these 176 H&A games, which occupy a MASSIVE 95% of the season would actually mean something. This is far, far, more important than one game at the end of the year (which would be massive anyway). Immeasureably so.

Obviously, the GF wouldn't decided the "premiers". It would decided the champions of the finals tournament. So, it might not be as big in an official sense. But in terms of an event it would lose nothing. The FA CUP is still big, even though the premiership has already been decided. In my proposal, the Grand Final, with it's one-off knockout style, and season culminating event status, would EASILY be the years biggest game. Easily. It would still be the biggest and most watched match of the year, and it would still draw the most ratings.

And if it did lose something (lets say,it might lose 10%), this would be far outweighed, by the benefits of rewarding the Home and away seaosn, which taks up most of the time of clubs during a season. The benefits of rewarding this H&A season are so huge, it's hard to explain. I don't think people quite understand the benefits of making 176 games worthwhile instead of meaningless. It would be marvellous for the game. Just imagine for a second, 176 H&A games actually meaning something, instead of being meanngless.

 

[elt]

Dan,

As I've said to you before I understand your argument. It's just that I don't agree. By definition the GF is being devalued so there is no point not acknowledging that fact. It is your opinion the benefits outweigh this loss. My opinion is that the benefits you propose (and as I've said before I do think the minor premiers deserve more recognition) come at too great a cost.

The FA Cup is a red herring and many people have pointed out previously reasons why it is irrelevant.

A large proportion of the time (not always) the GF may still be the biggest individual game. There would be occasions where it wasn't e.g. the examples you have used where two teams have played off for top spot in the last round. If this was for the major prize then that game would have to be the biggest one off match for the year. Granted this would not normally be the case (and I think that's a bad thing).

The point is that is not what we are debating. You are saying your proposal is the best way of providing more recognition to top spot and others, including myself disagree.

Please stop claiming the H&A matches are meaningless. They do mean something now, it's just that in your opinion they don't mean enough.

I have been on this board for over 10 months and, whilst I may not have many posts next to my name, in that time I have read a large number of posts on this topic. Obviously neither of us is going to convince one another now. I can understand you finding it frustrating that people don't agree but don't make the naive assumption it is because they don't understand the proposal.

[This message has been edited by elt (edited 09 February 2001).]

[This message has been edited by elt (edited 09 February 2001).]

 

[Same Old's]

Originally posted by elt:
Please stop claiming the H&A matches are meaningless. They do mean something now, it's just that in your opinion they don't mean enough.

Once the finals start, what you done in the H&A season is basically "meaningless". It doesn't really matter how many games you won beforehand all that really "matters" is that your in the finals. They only use your ladder positions as seeding tool so as to see who you are going to play.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Same Old's:
Once the finals start, what you done in the H&A season is basically "meaningless". It doesn't really matter how many games you won beforehand all that really "matters" is that your in the finals. They only use your ladder positions as seeding tool so as to see who you are going to play.

EXACTLY. Once the finals, start, the H&A is totally meaningless. That is just not good enough.