India comes full circle - acknowledges umpires are human after all

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#51
by trying to reply semantically on a line-by-line basis, you've actually missed the point entirely...
lol.

breaking down an argument into all of its parts (not lines), does not affect my ability to understand a point. if ive missed the point, well then ive just simply missed the point.

when it comes to being royal pains in the ass, the indians take the cake.
are some indian players under-performing, over-paid 'rock stars', absolutely. do the bcci have an unhealthy level of control over all things cricket, no doubt.

that series did produce some of the ugliest test cricket played in this country, & the indians were just as bad as the australians regarding behaviour, on & off the field.

did the australian cricket team ever take responsibility for their actions in that series, which you have accused the indian cricket team of failing to do?

i have always loved the way australia has played its cricket. we had a level of intimidation on the cricket field that hasn't been displayed by any other team since. we played hard, & fair, unless a game was on the line, then all bets were off, which is what happened in sydney 2008.

your implications that any type of behaviour by an australian player that is considered outside the spirit of the game is beyond any level of reproach, just because no australian player/official has 'publicly' lectured the rest of the world on such matters, yet the indian cricket team has no credibility every time an indian cricketer, currently playing or retired, behaves outside the spirit of the game, beause of a statement made by a retired indian captain, is just as 'pious' and 'self-righteous' as kumble implications of 2008.

also, how many times has a cricket board decided not to publicly back its captain?

the indian cricket team, under anil kumble's should have been fair game for questioning every time the team/players decided to act in a way that may have been considered outside the spirit of the game.

bringing in the actions of kohli and sharma as examples of failing to measure up to the benchmark & standards implied by kumble in 2008, is clutching at straws, nit-picking, indian bashing, & just embarrassing.

the most obvious off all your points is that you have a disdain for anything that is indian cricket, and that every act by indian cricket is destined to fail under the benchmarks & standards implicated by anil kumble's statements of 4 years ago, which you have attached a level of importance that far outreaches a reasonable scope.
 

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Kram

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#57
God I remember that, there was absolutely no way that ball was going to miss leg stump. A farce really.
 

beatnik

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Thread starter #58
uber lol like, i'm totes deffo happs to start this post with a vaguely derisive opening too...like OMG i'm LMFAO!!!

:eek::D:eek::confused::p



:rolleyes:

breaking down an argument into all of its parts (not lines), does not affect my ability to understand a point. if ive missed the point, well then ive just simply missed the point.
you would be best placed to know what led you to miss the point so I will not seek to correct you


however, I am willing give your ‘line-by-line’ response approach a go because two succinct summaries have failed to assist you in keeping up with the discussion

when it comes to being royal pains in the ass, the indians take the cake. are some indian players under-performing, over-paid 'rock stars', absolutely. do the bcci have an unhealthy level of control over all things cricket, no doubt.
agreed #1


that series did produce some of the ugliest test cricket played in this country, & the indians were just as bad as the australians regarding behaviour, on & off the field.
agreed #2


did the australian cricket team ever take responsibility for their actions in that series, which you have accused the indian cricket team of failing to do?
yes, they did...they sucked it all up and got on with playing even though they were a) sold out by Cricket Australia and b) the Australian cricket media over what they (and I) felt was a clear cut case of racism against an (until then) popular member of the team

…and why were they sold out?

a) because the BCCI have an unhealthy level of control over all things cricket (as you noted above)

b) because the Australian cricket media were looking to tear down the greatest team in the modern era (yes, better than the Windies in my own opinion) and saw an opportunity to inject some drama into cricket after almost a decade of absolute one-sided floggings against visiting teams


i have always loved the way australia has played its cricket. we had a level of intimidation on the cricket field that hasn't been displayed by any other team since. we played hard, & fair, unless a game was on the line, then all bets were off, which is what happened in sydney 2008.
agree #3


your implications that any type of behaviour by an australian player that is considered outside the spirit of the game is beyond any level of reproach, just because no australian player/official has 'publicly' lectured the rest of the world on such matters, yet the indian cricket team has no credibility every time an indian cricketer, currently playing or retired, behaves outside the spirit of the game, beause of a statement made by a retired indian captain, is just as 'pious' and 'self-righteous' as kumble implications of 2008.
this statement is based on an utterly false premise, read what I said again...


"Australia have always claimed to play as hard as possible within the letter of the rules and have never lectured about the 'spirit of the game' - therefore there is no hypocrisy whenever a player competes hard, oversteps the mark and accepts punishment with good grace"


I expect Australian players to play to the limits of competitiveness but I also expect them to cop it on the chin when they cross a boundary and publicly acknowledge their error


in no way did i say or imply the Australians were 'beyond reproach', i said there would be no hypocrisy involved (which is patently true because they have not individually or collectively sought to claim a moral high ground to be contrasted against)


please acknowledge that you utterly misrepresented what I wrote



also, how many times has a cricket board decided not to publicly back its captain?


who cares? the BCCI did not distance itself from Kumble's accusations in this case...far from it…in fact, they backed him so hard on this topic that they appointed him the official ‘spirit of the game’ mentor of the current Indian cricket team


http://www.indianexpress.com/news/g...ach-team-india-in-offfield-behaviour/655358/2


the indian cricket team, under anil kumble's should have been fair game for questioning every time the team/players decided to act in a way that may have been considered outside the spirit of the game.
bringing in the actions of kohli and sharma as examples of failing to measure up to the benchmark & standards implied by kumble in 2008, is clutching at straws, nit-picking, indian bashing, & just embarrassing.

the most obvious off all your points is that you have a disdain for anything that is indian cricket, and that every act by indian cricket is destined to fail under the benchmarks & standards implicated by anil kumble's statements of 4 years ago, which you have attached a level of importance that far outreaches a reasonable scope.


the Indian cricket team are still ‘officially’ mentored by Kumble on behaviour :eek:

with that in mind, can you please explain to me how you think that team’s current behaviour (see below for a new example) should not be considered against that defining statement made by Anil, the ‘gentlemen’ of Indian cricket???






given Kumble’s role, then his conflict-of-interest/abuse of power controversy is also of the utmost relevance


http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news/item/179534-questions-raised-over-kumbles-player-agency


http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/features/specials/item/179526-can-kumble-set-a-moral-benchmark


I have a disdain for the ‘unhealthy power’ that BCCI exerts on the game and I have a disdain for hypocrisy in all its forms

I also have a disdain
for your vague and timid insinuation of racial motivation behind my posts (aka “Indian bashing”)

this is despite the fact that my prime gripe against Indian cricket was that they missed the opportunity to make a stand against racism in sport ( something I clearly feel strongly about)

Shut.

Down.

 

frankrizzo

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#59
The late Roebuck referred to it as the Sydney Travesty but the actual specifics of Australian wrongdoing were vague. Strident appealing was that the crime?
Clarke took 3 wickets in 5 balls then all hell broke loose, if india escape from that game with a draw we no doubt get a very different press conference from kumble.

It was a successful ploy from a under fire skipper, instead of answering questions about his sides inept batting and lack of fortitude he's suddenly a hero to the masses.
 
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Essendon
#60


uber lol like, i'm totes deffo happs to start this post with a vaguely derisive opening too...like OMG i'm LMFAO!!!

:eek::D:eek::confused::p



:rolleyes:


lol. calm down.

you would be best placed to know what led you to miss the point so I will not seek to correct you. however, I am willing give your ‘line-by-line’ response approach a go because two succinct summaries have failed to assist you in keeping up with the discussion.


how very pious and self-righteous of you. there is a difference between not getting your point & not agreeing with your point.

yes, they did...they sucked it all up and got on with playing even though they were a) sold out by Cricket Australia and b) the Australian cricket media over what they (and I) felt was a clear cut case of racism against an (until then) popular member of the team
sucking it up is hardly taking responsibility for anything. by the way, i dont think australia did anything that required taking resonsibility for in the first place.

…and why were they sold out?

a) because the BCCI have an unhealthy level of control over all things cricket (as you noted above)

b) because the Australian cricket media were looking to tear down the greatest team in the modern era (yes, better than the Windies in my own opinion) and saw an opportunity to inject some drama into cricket after almost a decade of absolute one-sided floggings against visiting teams
look, the bcci act like first class *$@# most of the times, but at the end of the day, cricket australia were put to a decision, and the decision made was that of a financial one. the australian cricket team was sold out by cricket australia, nobody else.

this statement is based on an utterly false premise, read what I said again...

"Australia have always claimed to play as hard as possible within the letter of the rules and have never lectured about the 'spirit of the game' - therefore there is no hypocrisy whenever a player competes hard, oversteps the mark and accepts punishment with good grace"


I expect Australian players to play to the limits of competitiveness but I also expect them to cop it on the chin when they cross a boundary and publicly acknowledge their error


in no way did i say or imply the Australians were 'beyond reproach', i said there would be no hypocrisy involved (which is patently true because they have not individually or collectively sought to claim a moral high ground to be contrasted against)


firstly, when you go on to list every act by an indian as proof of hypocrisy, & then claim that there is no taint of hypocrisy when the australians decide to act as same, its easy to interpret that those very actions are beyond reproach.

secondly, your logic/reasoning behind this so called indian hypocrisy's is where my concerns lie.
anil kumble, was a captain under fire, & in the heat of battle, chose to deflect, rather than take responsibility. he made a bad decision, in the midst of all the controversy, to make a statement directed at the circumstances surrounding that test match only, & not as a general observation.

if you want to call anil kumble a hypocrite or question his character, go right ahead. everthing else is a little hyperbole.

please acknowledge that you utterly misrepresented what I wrote


thought it was a balanced interpretation of your statement. if that wasn't your point, then it wasn't your point.

who cares? the BCCI did not distance itself from Kumble's accusations in this case...far from it…in fact, they backed him so hard on this topic that they appointed him the official ‘spirit of the game’ mentor of the current Indian cricket team.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/g...ach-team-india-in-offfield-behaviour/655358/2


there is no mention of appointing anybody as anything in that article.

the Indian cricket team are still ‘officially’ mentored by Kumble on behaviour :eek:
not according to this.

BCCI says no to Kumble’s mentor role
The Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) has dropped the plan to rope in former India skipper Anil Kumble to teach life skills to players, a proposal that was first considered last year after the former cricketer made a presentation to top officials.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/BCCI-says-no-to-Kumble-s-mentor-role/857517/


has also recently quit from the NCA


Kumble steps down as NCA chief over conflict of interest
Former India cricket captain Anil Kumble stepped down chairman of the National Cricket Academy (NCA) here Monday after Indian cricket board members at a meeting raised the question of a "conflict of interest" in his wearing multiple hats.

http://www.zimbio.com/Cricket/articles/d5z14On2KTo/Kumble+steps+down+NCA+chief+over+conflict



sorry, what role?

with that in mind, can you please explain to me how you think that team’s current behaviour (see below for a new example) should not be considered against that defining statement made by Anil, the ‘gentlemen’ of Indian cricket???


with what in mind? anil kumble's role?

the level of importance that you have associated with anil kumble's statement has far outreached a reasonable/acceptable scope.
also, the level of innuendo that you have associated with anil kumble & his current role in indian cricket has taken on mystical proportions, in order to help push your indian hypocrisy agenda to new heights. you have taken anil kumble's statement as a metaphor for all things hypocritical regarding indian cricket.

I also have disdain for your vague and timid insinuation of racial motivation behind my posts (aka "indian bashing")


1. an ambigious connection between 'australia's only coloured player'(your words) being racially abused by indian crowds & harbajhan singh doing the same in australia.

2. blaming the bcci for cricket australia selling out their own team & duping the australian media.

3. listing every type of act by an indian player/official that could be considered outside the spirit of the game as hypocritical.

4. claiming blatant examples exists where indian players/officials place personal interests above the game.

all for the purpose of creating a burden of proof regarding indian cricket hypocrisy.

if it aint indian bashing, its still clutching at straws & nit-picking.

indian cricket is a lot of things, but there not half the things you're claiming.

 

beatnik

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Thread starter #61
secondly, your logic/reasoning behind this so called indian hypocrisy's is where my concerns lie.
I suggested the Indian cricket team’s past rhetoric on player behaviour, integrity and treatment of umpires had created the very cynicism it is facing in relation to issues in cricket such as their ‘turn-about’ on the DRS

it appears that you acknowledge the hypocrisy and resulting cynicism but don’t like the examples I used, so let’s use simpler ones...

during the Monkeygate series Chetan Chauhan, India's team manager said his players were "agitated and upset by... the incompetent umpires here... [and hoped] that they will not officiate again in the series" …the BCCI then supported this stance by threatening to end the cricket tour and thus forced the ICC to overturn its initial commitment to backing the umpires

to Bucknor, this posturing like this from the Indian cricket collective which led to his sacking, provides a sadly ironic backdrop against which to read Dhoni’s current comments:

"I still put my money on the umpires because they have been doing the job [for a long time]...This is a game in which people commit mistakes…What is important is that if a mistake is committed by the umpire, it should not affect him...If as an umpire you give something out when it's not-out, you don't need to go into your shell thinking you have made a wrong decision. If the next ball the umpire feels it is out, he should boldly give the decision.”


these comments also fly in the face of Dhoni’s only thinly-veiled swipe at umpiring during the recent Jamaica Test where he said: "If the correct decisions were made, the game would have finished much earlier and I would have been in the hotel by now."

if you can’t perceive the hypocrisy in these examples then I’d suggest you are either slow on the uptake or being deliberately obtuse


if you want to call anil kumble a hypocrite or question his character, go right ahead. everthing else is a little hyperbole.

the level of importance that you have associated with anil kumble's statement has far outreached a reasonable/acceptable scope. also, the level of innuendo that you have associated with anil kumble & his current role in indian cricket has taken on mystical proportions, in order to help push your indian hypocrisy agenda to new heights. you have taken anil kumble's statement as a metaphor for all things hypocritical regarding indian cricket.
an "Indian hypocrisy agenda"? you are being melodramatic again…to be honest, I also think it is you who is focusing too heavily on Kumble’s comments

as I said above, I see his statements as one (though highly visible) example of the pious stance taken by the wider Indian cricket community e.g. players, team management, cricket administration and even some members of the media (who were, it turns out, were ‘secretly’ on BCCI contracts through the whole mess)

personally, it’s not surprising at all that the BCCI dropped its plans to appoint Kumble as an official 'behaviour' coach given his conflict-of-interest and ‘abuse of power’ controversies

that aside, he remains the current mentor to the IPL’s Royal Challengers (and thus to players like Zaheer and Virat Kohli) so how can his very public stance on player behaviour be irrelevant when considering Kohli’s ugly behaviour?

[incidentally I would expect the Australian captain, team management and cricket media to be much less forgiving than their Indian cricket equivalents have been if Australian players had made obscene gestures to spectators and members of the public, both on and off the field]


all for the purpose of creating a burden of proof regarding indian cricket hypocrisy.
do you mean a ‘body’ of proof? (I think you’ve been watching too much CSI!!!)


if it aint indian bashing, its still clutching at straws & nit-picking.
I appreciate that you’ve retracted your earlier claim of ‘Indian bashing’ but I am not concerned that you've reverted to claims of 'nit-picking' or 'clutching at straws' as these are often the vague assertions made by someone realising halfway through a discussion that they don’t really have a cohesive argument or any facts to support them


indian cricket is a lot of things, but there not half the things you're claiming.
half of the things? I’ve only claimed one thing - that Indian cricket’s previous self-righteousness undermines its credibility on current issues like non-use of DRS

nothing you’ve said across your recent posts has made me doubt the validity of that statement
 

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#62
I suggested the Indian cricket team’s past rhetoric on player behaviour, integrity and treatment of umpires had created the very cynicism it is facing in relation to issues in cricket such as their ‘turn-about’ on the DRS

it appears that you acknowledge the hypocrisy and resulting cynicism but don’t like the examples I used, so let’s use simpler ones...
replace simpler with relevant.

i acknowledge hypocrisy and any resulting cynicism when it is within context and scope.

nothing to do with not liking the examples used, more to do with them being irrelevant.

if you can’t perceive the hypocrisy in these examples then I’d suggest you are either slow on the uptake or being deliberately obtuse.
i can perceive the hypocrisy in those comments, and understand the resulting cynicism in regards to their stand on the DRS due to this.

however, i still fail to perceive the hypocrisy and resulting cynicism in kohli's or sharma's actions, kumble's allegations of corruption/conflict of interest, and indian players/officials placing personal interests above the game, in regards to india's stand on the DRS.

in this so called hotbed of cynical sentiment that india has created for itself, the above examples (except dhoni's) have no context surrounding discussion of their refusal to use the DRS.

I also think it is you who is focusing too heavily on Kumble’s comments
i highly doubt that when you're the one placing kumble's comments and role front and center in regards to indian hypocrisy, and then continue to push your rhetoric through the following mistruths;
1) bcci appointing kumble as the official 'spirit of the game' mentor of the curent team, & 2) indian cricket team are still ‘officially’ mentored by kumble on behaviour.

as I said above, I see his statements as one (though highly visible) example of the pious stance taken by the wider Indian cricket community e.g. players, team management, cricket administration and even some members of the media (who were, it turns out, were ‘secretly’ on BCCI contracts through the whole mess)
i understand and agree to a certain extent, but i also acknowledge that the statement was directed at the circumstances surrounding that test match only, & not as a general observation, and has not been repeated since. Thus, no moral high grounds to live up to or accusations of hypocrisy by any behaviour considered outside the spirit of the game four years after the fact.

personally, it’s not surprising at all that the BCCI dropped its plans to appoint Kumble as an official 'behaviour' coach given his conflict-of-interest and ‘abuse of power’ controversies
or maybe they never intended to in the first place. i believe kumble went to the bcci with the proposal, the bcci then rejected it.

incidentally I would expect the Australian captain, team management and cricket media to be much less forgiving than their Indian cricket equivalents have been if Australian players had made obscene gestures to spectators and members of the public, both on and off the field
they never are, or will be. this type of behaviour will only ever receive a slap on the wrist, no matter how much you expect it not to.

do you mean a ‘body’ of proof? (I think you’ve been watching too much CSI!!!)
nah, i was after body of evidence, got that wrong all by myself, no CSI required. should have gone with orgy of evidence, more in context with my point.

I appreciate that you’ve retracted your earlier claim of ‘Indian bashing’ but I am not concerned that you've reverted to claims of 'nit-picking' or 'clutching at straws' as these are often the vague assertions made by someone realising halfway through a discussion that they don’t really have a cohesive argument or any facts to support them
how is it vague. i believed they were outside of any context/scope in regards to their role/relevance in any cynicism surrounding india's refusal to use the DRS, and only used to create an orgy of evidence :p, resulting in the nit-picking/clutching at straws analogy. stop hiding behind the lack of cohesive argument/facts rock, and if i recall correctly, only one of us has made claims of fact that were proven to be false.

I’ve only claimed one thing - that Indian cricket’s previous self-righteousness undermines its credibility on current issues like non-use of DRS

nothing you’ve said across your recent posts has made me doubt the validity of that statement
one claim, many dots joined to get there. hopefully, at the very least, kumble's current role in the current indian cricket team no longer plays as an important role in the continuing cynicism on current issues involving india.

never had a problem with the statement, only some of the logic behind the validity.
 
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