India Tour of England 2021

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konkani

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konkani

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Yea Bumrah bowls legally while Akhtar was a suspected chucker and PED user.
I actually love Bumrah. I don't think he is the most talented bowler - he isn't a swing bowler really, and potentially lacks the height to be a hit-the-deck bowler, so it is partly a mystery to me how he is so good (that and I don't have any seam bowling knowledge)
However he has a lot of intelligence. There was an article i read a few years ago which shows how he figures out the perfect length by his 2nd and 3rd spells and uses his first spell to experiment. That is what I reckon might have happened on Sunday although I didn't see it live. He found the perfect and perhaps only way to get wickets on this pitch? That's some genius stuff imo.

It was a tongue in cheek comment, in memory of when Akhtar blew Australia away including Gilchrist and others with literally unplayable yorkers in Pakistan early this century. It was actually mostly a compliment considering I think Akhtar had a great bowling mind and underdelivered IMO compared to his great potential. He developed the most mesmerising dipping slower balls I have ever seen, like maybe BEFORE t20 took off.
Anyway there are probably a few more of my posts you can find to dislike I reckon? ;)
 

konkani

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It's hardly a bizarre claim. Judging who is the best off a one-off test match, one which was also played somewhere which completely favored one side, is a horrible way to judge the best in a format like Test cricket.

That said the main reason Warne probably posted that was to kiss ass with Indian Cricket
I don't think it adds up much though. India got BLOWN away in what was - objectively - the biggest game of the year. Much like my own team do, they sort of crumbled on the big stage.

Their win in Australia was absolutely extraordinary and speaks a lot to their talent and confidence and the IPL (and also them being the biggest baddest member of the Big 3 but I digress) however everyone has been beating England at home lately, what does being 2-1 up against their C-team measure exactly? New Zealand rolled over a stronger team than this one in their sleep and even my chaotic team Pakistan, had they had just 10% more composure I reckon, would have beaten Eng on their home patch 1-0, after having them down 5-120 odd in a chase of 275-ish.

New Zealand are deservedly the best test team on the planet, with literally the most unstoppable Test bowler on the planet atmn (only shaded by Pat Cummins really), a superbly skillful and varied bowling attack, and a pretty damn solid batting line-up lead by another 2-3 star batters.
Edit: I completely agree with the ass-kissing bit though...
 
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konkani

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This is the spell I am talking about by Shoaib for anyone interested - in Colombo sorry, cos of security concerns i think:

Got out Ponting, Mark & Steve Waugh and then Gilchrist : it's pretty unreal

 

glenferry23

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I felt at the time of the WTC final that India were heavily disadvantaged by having the match in England where the conditions already are more familiar to New Zealand. Also the fact that New Zealand were able to play Test matches there as their preparation.

Just the optics of it didn’t feel quite right or balanced. No disputing NZ’s performance on that last day or two, deserved winners. However I’d like to see NZ tour India again soon and vice versa to get a much more accurate view of the discussion.
 

Santana

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I don't think it adds up much though. India got BLOWN away in what was - objectively - the biggest game of the year. Much like my own team do, they sort of crumbled on the big stage.

Their win in Australia was absolutely extraordinary and speaks a lot to their talent and confidence and the IPL (and also them being the biggest baddest member of the Big 3 but I digress) however everyone has been beating England at home lately, what does being 2-1 up against their C-team measure exactly? New Zealand rolled over a stronger team than this one in their sleep and even my chaotic team Pakistan, had they had just 10% more composure I reckon, would have beaten Eng on their home patch 1-0, after having them down 5-120 odd in a chase of 275-ish.

New Zealand are deservedly the best test team on the planet, with literally the most unstoppable Test bowler on the planet atmn (only shaded by Pat Cummins really), a superbly skillful and varied bowling attack, and a pretty damn solid batting line-up lead by another 2-3 star batters.
Edit: I completely agree with the ass-kissing bit though...
Not sure how much stock you can put into comparing India's & New Zealand's respected series in England this year. One was the main draw 5 game series, the other was thrown together earlier in the year to keep England's TV right holders happy and added good practice for NZ's WTC final build-up. I know which one England was taking more seriously. Not to mention the England/NZ series wasn't part of the WTC, adding more reason not to care.
 

Santana

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I felt at the time of the WTC final that India were heavily disadvantaged by having the match in England where the conditions already are more familiar to New Zealand. Also the fact that New Zealand were able to play Test matches there as their preparation.

Just the optics of it didn’t feel quite right or balanced. No disputing NZ’s performance on that last day or two, deserved winners. However I’d like to see NZ tour India again soon and vice versa to get a much more accurate view of the discussion.
The optics were bad, but because the result went the way a lot of certain people wanted, we didn't hear much about it, especially in the media.

If the final had been in spinning friendly conditions, with India playing test matches as warm-ups, and with them winning, the tune would have been different.
 

konkani

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Not sure how much stock you can put into comparing India's & New Zealand's respected series in England this year. One was the main draw 5 game series, the other was thrown together earlier in the year to keep England's TV right holders happy and added good practice for NZ's WTC final build-up. I know which one England was taking more seriously. Not to mention the England/NZ series wasn't part of the WTC, adding more reason not to care.

I just don't think that India not playing warmups or whatever was the reason they psychologically crumbled on the 6th day (really the 4th) of that test match. They had many chances to save the match in what was effectively a 4-day test starting the day at 71-2 but they just weren't up to it.

Even before the match Kohli was spooked by the team that absolutely spanked them in NZ 2-0 and was trying to play down, play down the results of the match. Just because you are Indian cricket royalty Virat and your mob rules World Cricket, doesn't give you the right to do that.

As to the other points
1) oh okay, we are including subjective things like "how much England" cared to discredit the NZ win? I never knew we could read their minds.

2) England conditions are different to NZ conditions. In NZ the pitches flatten out soon after they are good for bowling. I never realised that you could discredit someone's literal WTC FInal win due to hypothetical stuff like "most similar"...

3) LOL - now we are righting off NZ due to them not drawing 5-match series, I'm sorry but I don't even have to make my point about the Big 3 anymore. NZ are damned if they do or don't in the eyes of fans... it's their fault for not getting the big series and it means their opponentsdon't care, etc, etc

My final point is - IF everyone can just COMPLETELY IGNORE that India were absolutely demolished by NZ in NZ conditions, you cannot then go and say, OH it's so relevant that the Kiwis (minus 2 of their biggest recent stars in Jamieson and Conway I might add) got totally smashed in Aus.

We all have our biases. I am biased due to the Pak/Ind rivalry. Aussie fans are biased due to Aus/Eng and Aus/NZ rivalries.

The facts are that NZ are ranked #1 in tests, and that they walked in the WTC final. Those are enough for me. Do I really need to start comparing the averages of the various positions which I've already looked at? I hope not because I really can't be bothered.
 

glenferry23

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The optics were bad, but because the result went the way a lot of certain people wanted, we didn't hear much about it, especially in the media.

If the final had been in spinning friendly conditions, with India playing test matches as warm-ups, and with them winning, the tune would have been different.
That’s absolutely true. Can only imagine the headlines and the narrative if the circumstances were slanted the other way around.
 

frankrizzo

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India are just the best test side around right now, that one off test championship was a bit of fun but its one test and to show how fickle it all is without an over rate penalty to our lot(only two overs slow which some teams get away with) then nz doesn't even make the final.

India are still the toughest place to tour and look the best equipped to win in a variety of overseas conditions, doesn't mean this isnt a very good nz side i just think india are better.
 
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Park cricketer

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Anybody who understands the nuances of Test cricket and doesn't simply go by simplistic metrics like rankings can see why India is better than New Zealand. New Zealand, at the moment, are like the Indian team around 2015 onwards that ascended to the top of the rankings table after it beat the Windies in the Caribbean. That Indian team was very strong in favourable conditions (subcontinent) and beat the West Indies outside asia. But they weren't good enough, at that point in time, to beat teams in their own homes in Aus, Eng, SA and NZ.

New Zealand are easily the best team in the world in swinging and seaming conditions, i.e., NZ, England and even SA to an extent. But their quicks have the same issue that England have, while they're exceptionally skilled in moving the ball sideways when there's lateral movement available, they lack the extra pace to really cause trouble when there isn't movement on offer. They also lack a good spinner in the same quality of Ashwin, Lyon or Jadeja in their team to really trouble India at home. It is why it's been decades since they last won a single test, forget drawing or winning a series, in India, SA and Australia. They might do it in SA now that SA are bog average, but they'll find it extremely difficult to win a test in India or Australia because they are a conditions dependent team at the moment.

India are not perfect. I don't rate the Indian batting in seaming conditions, and India might well lose the next test in Manchester if England rolls out a green wicket to salvage the series. But due to their bowlers, they're often in the game even in such unfavourable conditions even though they might be eventually second best. And in what is considered alien conditions for them, India have won two series in a row in Australia and at best, might win a series in England fresh after the series win in Australia and at worst, might draw it. Indian pace attack is the third or even the fourth best in seaming conditions after NZ, Eng and Aus because they don't nail their full lengths as often as they should in those conditions, but it is far more versatile than the Kiwi attack which is a conditions dependent one - very good in seaming conditions and average at best in all other conditions. And I'm not even going into the spin attacks. I know NZ beat India in the WTC final but that doesn't make them the best team just like India beating WI in the '83 WC final didn't make them the best team in the world. They were just the best team in that particular game. I actually rate Australia as a more versatile team than NZ and genuinely felt they deserved to have made the final ahead of NZ due to their performance in the Ashes in England. I posted the same in another forum even before the final happened, so it's not bitterness due to the final loss. I'll change my opinion on NZ being a conditions dependent team when they next win a test in India or Australia.
 

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konkani

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Anybody who understands the nuances of Test cricket and doesn't simply go by simplistic metrics like rankings.....
Subtle dig, lol.

I think you raise many good points, however NZ don't need a spinner with how they play in recent times - their pace attack is so varied as Jarrod Kimber has written about online. Even so, they have a really decent looking spinner in Azaz Patel waiting in the wings. I also happen to think Lockie Ferguson is an absolute star - he is easily my favourite express pace bowler on the planet (apart from Rabada but is he still express?) and has already proven himself on the big stage in the world cup. He could easily come into the team when needed.

If you want to debate about batting line-ups we could talk until the cows come home, but I can easily direct you to a comparison of the averages of the current top 6 of both sides (I concede Jajeda at 7 has been batting well recently but his average is still below that of De Grandhome in those famous "bowling" conditions in NZ everyone loves to go on about)
 

konkani

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Look my contention about NZ, a lot of it actually rests on Jamieson, he has only been around since NZ/Aus series. I think it will be proven in future that they are just as good as any team- Jamieson has literally changed everything for them, so for now I don't really have much to add so I'll just leave this here. I think India are a fantastic team as well, but without any Ind/Pak rivalry getting in the way, I would have babies with NZ's pace attack if I could, i rate it that highly. They also have guys like Ferguson and Henry etc on the sideline.

 

Park cricketer

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Subtle dig, lol.

I think you raise many good points, however NZ don't need a spinner with how they play in recent times - their pace attack is so varied as Jarrod Kimber has written about online. Even so, they have a really decent looking spinner in Azaz Patel waiting in the wings. I also happen to think Lockie Ferguson is an absolute star - he is easily my favourite express pace bowler on the planet (apart from Rabada but is he still express?) and has already proven himself on the big stage in the world cup. He could easily come into the team when needed.

If you want to debate about batting line-ups we could talk until the cows come home, but I can easily direct you to a comparison of the averages of the current top 6 of both sides (I concede Jajeda at 7 has been batting well recently but his average is still below that of De Grandhome in those famous "bowling" conditions in NZ everyone loves to go on about)
It's not really a dig. For years, test teams have been getting rated by how they performed out of their comfort zones - that West Indian and Australian teams were rated as the GOAT teams because they won practically everywhere they played. Also we've listened for years on how the past Indian teams were lions at home and lambs abroad, a criticism that was not entirely unwarranted by the way. But I find it amusing that suddenly when this Indian team actually starts winning abroad, and in tough places like Australia and England and not like the Caribbean or Sri Lanka, critics have suddenly changed goalposts on how test cricket has been perceived over the years just because the ICC decided to introduce a funky concept called the WTC. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the WTC as a concept, but I think it's simplistic to judge which team is the best team in the world based on a single game. I think it reduces the complexity of test cricket to the level of pajama cricket.

To everyone who grew up seriously following test cricket over the years, you knew who the best team in the world was and you didn't need the ICC rankings to deduce that. Everyone knew that Saffer team was great because they won in most places away from their home, even if they weren't the best in their home. Similarly the English team around the early 2010s was the best in the world at one point when they won in Australia and India. I think India is the best right now because they have won tests, away from their comfort zone in the subcontinent, and series in countries that are traditionally tough to win.

NZ is a seriously good team, the best in the world, in a specific set of conditions when there's lateral movement available. A bit like Nadal on clay courts. I also think they're good enough to beat average sides like Pak (not a dig lol), SL even in unfavourable conditions (although Pak might give NZ serious trouble this time around in Pak), but they lack the wherewithal to win tests in unfavourable conditions against the top sides like Aus and Ind. Regarding their pace attack, I think we can't judge how Jamieson will go in flat conditions although I think he'll do alright due to his height. Saying Ferguson will be a success in Test cricket just because he was great in the world cup final is viewing Test cricket through the lens of white ball cricket. Lockie hasn't displayed anything to demonstrate he will be a success in Test cricket as he would need to sustain his pace and accuracy to be successful in red ball cricket. We see how Starc has been struggling in Test cricket despite having a record to rival, if not better the records of the GOATs in ODI cricket. I'll change my opinions if NZ does well in India or the next time they tour Australia. I reckon even Pakistan might be difficult to win this time around against with guys like Fawad, Rizwan and Babar strengthening their batting line up.
 

konkani

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Indian pace attack is the third or even the fourth best in seaming conditions after NZ, Eng and Aus because they don't nail their full lengths as often as they should in those conditions, but it is far more versatile than the Kiwi attack which is a conditions dependent one - very good in seaming conditions and average at best in all other conditions.
I disagree with the bolded as well. Lockie Ferguson was one of the very best bowlers in the 2019 world cup. You cannot tell me he wouldn't come into the test team and at least be as serviceable as someone like Mark Wood (who i actually think is pretty average) is. He has killer slower balls and variety too and an amazing action.

Wagner basically dominating in Australian conditions makes him only good in seaming conditions?

Tim Southee has been carving it the f*** up in recent years with a ridiculous average too. Everyone is talking about NZ like they didn't just win the jackpot in finding Jamieson but the fact is they did. It's reality. NOTHING so far about him suggests he won't be extremely serviceable in non-seaming conditions. Add in Boult for some left-arm angle with the new ball.

Anyway, it's been fun talking about how much i rate NZ but I need some sunshine now lol.

Edit to include recent Aus/NZ series figures (in which NZ is very understimated as usual):
Most wickets
PlayerMatInnsOversMdnsRunsWktsBBIBBMAveEconSR510
NM Lyon (AUS)36116.224345205/5010/11817.252.9634.921
N Wagner (NZ)36157.333387174/837/13322.762.4555.500
MA Starc (AUS)3689.518268155/529/9717.862.9835.910
PJ Cummins (AUS)36101.427225125/285/7518.752.2150.810
TG Southee (NZ)2499.422309125/699/16225.753.1049.810
C de Grandhomme (NZ)36111.01728773/783/12141.002.5895.100
JL Pattinson (AUS)2449.01113563/346/6922.502.7549.000
 
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corbies

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This is the spell I am talking about by Shoaib for anyone interested - in Colombo sorry, cos of security concerns i think:

Got out Ponting, Mark & Steve Waugh and then Gilchrist : it's pretty unreal

Surely no one can watch that Hayden dismissal and think umpires were better back in the day/pre-DRS?
 

PhatBoy

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Anybody who understands the nuances of Test cricket and doesn't simply go by simplistic metrics like rankings can see why India is better than New Zealand. New Zealand, at the moment, are like the Indian team around 2015 onwards that ascended to the top of the rankings table after it beat the Windies in the Caribbean. That Indian team was very strong in favourable conditions (subcontinent) and beat the West Indies outside asia. But they weren't good enough, at that point in time, to beat teams in their own homes in Aus, Eng, SA and NZ.

New Zealand are easily the best team in the world in swinging and seaming conditions, i.e., NZ, England and even SA to an extent. But their quicks have the same issue that England have, while they're exceptionally skilled in moving the ball sideways when there's lateral movement available, they lack the extra pace to really cause trouble when there isn't movement on offer. They also lack a good spinner in the same quality of Ashwin, Lyon or Jadeja in their team to really trouble India at home. It is why it's been decades since they last won a single test, forget drawing or winning a series, in India, SA and Australia. They might do it in SA now that SA are bog average, but they'll find it extremely difficult to win a test in India or Australia because they are a conditions dependent team at the moment.

India are not perfect. I don't rate the Indian batting in seaming conditions, and India might well lose the next test in Manchester if England rolls out a green wicket to salvage the series. But due to their bowlers, they're often in the game even in such unfavourable conditions even though they might be eventually second best. And in what is considered alien conditions for them, India have won two series in a row in Australia and at best, might win a series in England fresh after the series win in Australia and at worst, might draw it. Indian pace attack is the third or even the fourth best in seaming conditions after NZ, Eng and Aus because they don't nail their full lengths as often as they should in those conditions, but it is far more versatile than the Kiwi attack which is a conditions dependent one - very good in seaming conditions and average at best in all other conditions. And I'm not even going into the spin attacks. I know NZ beat India in the WTC final but that doesn't make them the best team just like India beating WI in the '83 WC final didn't make them the best team in the world. They were just the best team in that particular game. I actually rate Australia as a more versatile team than NZ and genuinely felt they deserved to have made the final ahead of NZ due to their performance in the Ashes in England. I posted the same in another forum even before the final happened, so it's not bitterness due to the final loss. I'll change my opinion on NZ being a conditions dependent team when they next win a test in India or Australia.
Not quite decades. Hobart 2012 or whenever it was
 

Kyptastic

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First day of the test called off due to Covid concerns in the Indian camp. There's a chance it'll be completely called off.

The cynic in me can't help but notice that the IPL is meant to start four days after this test is finished, I bet the Indian players wouldn't be opposed to a few more days off before that starts.

edit. It's off.

 

hotchilli

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First day of the test called off due to Covid concerns in the Indian camp. There's a chance it'll be completely called off.

The cynic in me can't help but notice that the IPL is meant to start four days after this test is finished, I bet the Indian players wouldn't be opposed to a few more days off before that starts.

edit. It's off.

Massive shame, has been a really enjoyable series to watch as a neutral.
 

glenferry23

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Wow. That’s very disappointing. Are reserve days a thing? I don’t believe so. I recall that was just an initiative for the WTC final.
 

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