Indigenous land claims and self-government?

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Thread starter #1
Looking at the issue of "self-determination" where indigenous peoples are concerned, with the issue of land claims and self-government here's some questions for debate here.

In the USA, Native American nations are considered to be "sovereign domestic dependent nations" under US law. The various Native American reservations and pueblos are thus self-governing entities which while not independent of the USA, can act independently of state governments. This is defined under US law as tribal sovereignty.

In Canada, the various First Nations and Inuit groups have made moves towards various forms of self-government. The largest of the native land claims so far resulted in the creation of the territory of Nunavut in 1999, this being the third territory of Canada meaning that it has responsibilities and institutions analogous to the other territories.

Other land claims in Canada will, however, result in something of a third level of government being created beneath federal and provincial/territorial governments. Examples of this are the Tli Cho people of the Northwest Territories whose land claims agreement was signed last year, and of the Inuit in Labrador whose final agreement is in the process of being ratified resulting in the self-governing region of Nunatsiavut.

The question I have is, is there a possibility of something similar happening in Australia with regards to our indigenous peoples? Is there even a similar legal or historical basis for indigenous self-government as there would be in the USA and Canada?
 

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#2
David Votoupal said:
The question I have is, is there a possibility of something similar happening in Australia with regards to our indigenous peoples? Is there even a similar legal or historical basis for indigenous self-government as there would be in the USA and Canada?
Yes - it's why they want the govt to say "sorry". It's also why the gov't won't!
 

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Hopefully NO.

The sooner Aboriginals accept they are Australians like the rest of us and start looking to the future rather than the past, the sooner their quality of life, self esteem and respect will improve.

Strange how they want aboriginal law and governance but white man medicine and handouts!!!!
 

CharlieG

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#5
Frodo said:
Hopefully NO.

The sooner Aboriginals accept they are Australians like the rest of us and start looking to the future rather than the past, the sooner their quality of life, self esteem and respect will improve.

Strange how they want aboriginal law and governance but white man medicine and handouts!!!!
What, exactly, is your problem with people wanting local representation like the rest of Australia?
 

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#7
CharlieG said:
What, exactly, is your problem with people wanting local representation like the rest of Australia?
They can have local representation? And do.

Indigenous women from around the country will meet with Australia's Indigenous women members of parliament Carol Martin MLA (Western Australia), Marion Scrymgour MLA (Northern Territory) and Linda Burney MLA (New South Wales)

Is that not local representation?

When I was a kid I always assumed Arnhem Land was self determining.
 

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#8
Tim56 said:
Indian reservations are the home of Casino's and endemic poverty. What a strange combination...
Tim.
Many resevations are often more prosperous then the regions around them.In Oklahoma,more indian lands control Oil production then non-indian lands.the indian tribes of eastern Washington and Oregon are often wealthier then their the lands owned by whites,through better land management practices.
BUT
i'm not arguing against the fact that many tribes own Casinos or that Poverty is endemic in indian reservations.
 

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#9
CharlieG said:
What, exactly, is your problem with people wanting local representation like the rest of Australia?
I have no problem with local representation at all. Let anyone set up a party and get an mp elected.

What I object to is discriminatory policy based upon race (so called positive discrimination) and the want for self control, but only as applies to handouts and law and not to receiving welfare such as medicine. They want to have their cake and eat it...and we're allowing them to do so.
 
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Frodo said:
What I object to is discriminatory policy based upon race
Like removing children from their families and trying to extinguish their cultural heritage rather than forcing white fathers of mixed-race kids to provide for their offspring? I object too.

While you cannot spoon-feed any group of people and hope they will look out for themselves you can't sweep generations of abuse, fear and hatred under the carpet and say "Just get on with it."

Basic psychological principles tell us that healing begins with recognition, an indication that other parties accept that a wrong was done. Anything else just breeds hatred and mistrust.
 

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#11
Frodo said:
What I object to is discriminatory policy based upon race (so called positive discrimination) and the want for self control, but only as applies to handouts and law and not to receiving welfare such as medicine. They want to have their cake and eat it...and we're allowing them to do so.
Bollocks Frodo. Positive discrimination is a method by which people that start way behind can catch up with the rest of society. Its not about giving Aborigines a head start as you seem to think, but rather about reducing the distance behind they begin. In my mind that's movement toward equality.

We might all be Australians (although I thought you were English for some reason), but not all Australians are equal. Compare the average life expectancy of an Aboriginal with the average for the rest of Australia. Compare the income. Compare the educational levels. Compare the entire gamut of socio-economic standards, the standard of living. Then tell me that the Aboriginal population start at the same point.

Positive discrimination is about reducing the gap. When the gap is gone, then there won't be any need for it and then if it remains it would be wrong. Then, not now.
 

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#12
Appleyard said:
Like removing children from their families and trying to extinguish their cultural heritage rather than forcing white fathers of mixed-race kids to provide for their offspring? I object too.

While you cannot spoon-feed any group of people and hope they will look out for themselves you can't sweep generations of abuse, fear and hatred under the carpet and say "Just get on with it."

Basic psychological principles tell us that healing begins with recognition, an indication that other parties accept that a wrong was done. Anything else just breeds hatred and mistrust.
Yes, you can do just that.
And what people 'may' have done two generations ago is in an era I can't understand and therefore can't criticize. I don't understand my sons values or my Fathers, never mind generations before, so I am not qualified to judge or apologise for them. Don't forget that in the same era Hitler would have exterminated them, and I don't understand the holocaust either. But then again I don't expect today's Germans to be apologising for Hitlers generation and the Jews have done exactly what you said 'can't' to. They've gone forward with eyes to the future and only memories for the past. Thousands of Jews have great friendships with Germans but are the Jews perpetually whinging and expecting handouts from Germans? Indeed NO.

And I would go and read your basic psychological principles again because what you write is just the psychology of hatred and it's perpetuation.
A person does not suffer generations of abuse. To consider aboriginals as a person is base to say the least.
 

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#13
Mr Q said:
Bollocks Frodo. Positive discrimination is a method by which people that start way behind can catch up with the rest of society. Its not about giving Aborigines a head start as you seem to think, but rather about reducing the distance behind they begin. In my mind that's movement toward equality.

We might all be Australians (although I thought you were English for some reason), but not all Australians are equal. Compare the average life expectancy of an Aboriginal with the average for the rest of Australia. Compare the income. Compare the educational levels. Compare the entire gamut of socio-economic standards, the standard of living. Then tell me that the Aboriginal population start at the same point.

Positive discrimination is about reducing the gap. When the gap is gone, then there won't be any need for it and then if it remains it would be wrong. Then, not now.
Bollocks to your opinion too Q.
You don't discriminate fairly 'ever', positive or negative. Why should a sick and poorly educated vietnamese family who are Australian citizens get any less help than an aboriginal family in the same situation. We are ALL Australians, not aboriginals, greeks, Irish etc, . Our heritage may be important and worthy of respect but the colour of our skin and our hatred of the whiteman (both racist) are no reasons fordiscrimination.It is a completely racist attitude and stinks.
Comp[are this, compare that......compare the attitude of aboriginals to the rest of Australians, their care for themselves, their negativity, their anti social behaviour and lack of willing to educate themselves and improve their own lot. Then just throw more money at them as before and perpatuate the sad situation. It is attitudes like yours that keep aboriginals in the state they are now and their will be no change until they are given a rude awakening by being told you'r Austalians like the rest of us...PERIOD.

And for your info, I am a 100% Australian of half Belgian and half English descent
 

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#14
Mr Q said:
, but not all Australians are equal. Compare the average life expectancy of an Aboriginal with the average for the rest of Australia. Compare the income. Compare the educational levels. Compare the entire gamut of socio-economic standards, the standard of living. Then tell me that the Aboriginal population start at the same point.

Positive discrimination is about reducing the gap. When the gap is gone, then there won't be any need for it and then if it remains it would be wrong. Then, not now.
Why do people assume throwing money will fix the discrepancy in life expectancy?How will throwing money help stop aborigines living in squalor? Unless you use it to get a maid in every thursday.How will throwing money at educational facilities help if the parents dont have a concern about getting the kids to those same facilities?

I agree there ARE issues that need to be looked at, but why does everyone think financial aid is the best answer? Or does it salve your conscience to know ''at least we tried''

Have any studies been done on life expectancy? Have any studies been done on diet and the onset of adult diabetes which is prevalent in the aboriginal community? Has anything been done to ensure the children are recieving education? Everyday? I understand there is isolation involved but dont school records indicate who does and doesnt turn up ?

I am angry that peoples solution is to spend more money on a problem when it is clear the issues go deeper than a few dollars spent. I wont pretend to know what all the answers are either , all I do know is if there was a major life expectancy issue within the white community , doctors would be spending hours upon hours searching for a cure.
 

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#15
Frodo said:
Yes, you can do just that.
And what people 'may' have done two generations ago is in an era I can't understand and therefore can't criticize. I don't understand my sons values or my Fathers, never mind generations before, so I am not qualified to judge or apologise for them. Don't forget that in the same era Hitler would have exterminated them, and I don't understand the holocaust either. But then again I don't expect today's Germans to be apologising for Hitlers generation and the Jews have done exactly what you said 'can't' to. They've gone forward with eyes to the future and only memories for the past. Thousands of Jews have great friendships with Germans but are the Jews perpetually whinging and expecting handouts from Germans? Indeed NO.

And I would go and read your basic psychological principles again because what you write is just the psychology of hatred and it's perpetuation.
A person does not suffer generations of abuse. To consider aboriginals as a person is base to say the least.
No 'may' about it, and more recently than two(where do get that from?) generations ago. I personally know of three in "my generation".
 

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#16
Frodo said:
And for your info, I am a 100% Australian of half Belgian and half English descent
Two of the worst imperialist countries ever!

The lack of compassion and understanding of the usualsuspects on this site is astounding.

Wake up fellas. Let's just try for a little while to recognise that we are a predominately rich country with most of our indigineous citizens living in Third World conditions. Let's try and help them out without this "let everyone get the same" bull********!

And by the way, Unit, et.al. - if you can show me one PM I have sent (genuine-no alterations) where I have said that I hope your wife or kids gets raped or sexually abused, I will never, ever post here again! There's a challenge for you! If you can't, you'll need to retract that comment!

Go for it!
 

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#17
crocodileman said:
Wake up fellas. Let's just try for a little while to recognise that we are a predominately rich country with most of our indigineous citizens living in Third World conditions. Let's try and help them out without this "let everyone get the same" bull********!
If they were equal genetically (ie, as intelligent) they would not need a helping hand. Ever heard of Darwin's Theory?
 

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crocodileman said:
Two of the worst imperialist countries ever!

The lack of compassion and understanding of the usualsuspects on this site is astounding.
Duuuhhhhh.......throwing money about to fund aboriginal alcoholism is compassion is it?
 

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#19
Leaping Lindner said:
No 'may' about it, and more recently than two(where do get that from?) generations ago. I personally know of three in "my generation".
Give me names and addresses and I'll prove beyond doubt that none were stolen. And none were. The supposed stolen generation were all signed away by parents for a better chance in life.
 

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#20
Frodo said:
Give me names and addresses and I'll prove beyond doubt that none were stolen. And none were. The supposed stolen generation were all signed away by parents for a better chance in life.
What is the difference between then and now? Large numbers of aboriginal children are still forcefully removed from their families due to domestic violence. Are these children stolen as well? Should they remain in environments of extreme domestic violence? Is this genocide?

If you give something to the church can you then credibly turn around and say it was stolen?
 

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#21
Mr Q said:
Bollocks Frodo. Positive discrimination is a method by which people that start way behind can catch up with the rest of society. Compare the income. Compare the educational levels. Compare the entire gamut of socio-economic standards, the standard of living. Then tell me that the Aboriginal population start at the same point.

Positive discrimination is about reducing the gap. When the gap is gone, then there won't be any need for it and then if it remains it would be wrong. Then, not now.
So Mr Q by definition you think everyone other than WASPS should be allowed positively discrimination so they can catch up on income, education, standard of living etc, thus making everyone equal????

Should we start redistributing land at the same time? 100% inheritance tax?
 

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#22
Has anyone actually sat down and talked to a Aboriginal at any point.

Anyone?

It would suprise many, to actually hear what they want.

Yes they want an apology, largely because of its symbolic nature.

Yes they want to be treated with respect in regard to thier culture

Yes they want a say in resolving the issues that effect thier community and not the same issues that effect them such as child abuse, alcoholism and poverty as also major issues within the white community as well.

No they do not want to take back the land and kick out the whites

Thier land rights claims are largely about access rights and the regulation of mining operation ie resoration of the land and payment of royalties.

Finally they want to be treated like everyone else and given the same services and access as white Australia is, something that by my observations on a daily basis is not happening.

As I have said a little less hysteria and an actual examination of the facts would reveal some sembalence of the actual reality
 

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#23
Frodo said:
Give me names and addresses and I'll prove beyond doubt that none were stolen. And none were. The supposed stolen generation were all signed away by parents for a better chance in life.
Proof of this?Because many aboriginals were victims of the 'intergration 'policies of the '20's-early 70's.EG-Micheal Long's parents.
 

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#24
BlueMark said:
Has anyone actually sat down and talked to a Aboriginal at any point.

Anyone?


Thier land rights claims are largely about access rights and the regulation of mining operation ie resoration of the land and payment of royalties.

Finally they want to be treated like everyone else and given the same services and access as white Australia is, something that by my observations on a daily basis is not happening.

As I have said a little less hysteria and an actual examination of the facts would reveal some sembalence of the actual reality

BM I hate to bring up the cliche ''I was friends with aborigines'' but as you asked the question..yes I have talked to aborigines ..yes it was a while ago ,but I dont think the situation has changed that much apart from the issues been hijacked(IMO) by people with less vested interests.

I have no issue with their claim for land in regards to land reclamation from mining companies...but when they pi55 that money against a wall and put their hand out for more makes me angry.

And please provide examples of where they are NOT provided with access to facilities and services. As it is my contention that they are, last time I looked there were no ''this door for aboriginals'' entrances. If as you state it ''happens on a daily basis'' it wont be hard for you to come up with some. I will then get my mate total_package to provide examples of where they recieve services over and above what they are entitled to.

I agree less hysteria will allow us ALL to approach the issue with reality, but as noted when vested interests on both sides get involved then unfortunately the aboriginal communities that should be looked after get shafted.

medusala said:
What is the difference between then and now? Large numbers of aboriginal children are still forcefully removed from their families due to domestic violence. Are these children stolen as well? Should they remain in environments of extreme domestic violence? Is this genocide?
I would strongly argue that the opposite is actually happening and that the Community Services are frozen with fear over the ''stolen generation'' when it comes to removing aboriginal children from abusive situations.It is my contention that large numbers of children who SHOULD be removed are not been due to the outcry that occurs when they do.

(I could have wondered why you thought it was ok to leave ANY child in a domestic abuse situation whether they be white or black, but I will leave that for BB or SK :p )
 

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#25
BlueMark said:
...Yes they want an apology, largely because of its symbolic nature....
This is as much about symbolism as Iraq is about WMD / human rights.

The first is about $$$$; the second is about oil (=$$$$).

If that isn't that obvious I'll bear my a$$ in the politbureau.
 
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