Toast Indigenous players and recruits - an exciting new era

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I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't acknowledge culture and ethnicity, I'm just suggesting that it is very dangerous to start assuming abilities based on culture or ethnicity.

Thanks for the lesson on stereotyping people according to their race. I'm still glad we have recruited some highly skilled Aboriginal footy players.

I'm off to tell the NBA that white men really can jump.
 
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doodles98

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What I'm alluding to is that you are racially stereotyping. There is often some truth to racial stereotypes, but racial stereotyping is very dangerous as many seem unable to look past the stereotype to view the individual. The stereotype of Aboriginal footballers is both positive and negative and probably contains some truth. There's a higher likelihood that an aboriginal AFL footballer is highly skilled, but there's also a higher likelihood that an aboriginal footballer won't be able to cope with the rigours of the game at an elite level and won't have a consistent enough work rate to achieve his potential. There's also a large number of examples of Aboriginal footballers who don't fit the stereotype - be it positive or negative. We're much better off viewing the individual rather than the racial stereotype.

The bolded sentence is the one that I dispute. I think on a percentage basis, the hit rate for indigenous players making the grade at AFL level after being drafted is higher than for non-indigenous players across the league. I don't know this but this would be my read on it. Would like to see some stats on that. I'd say you've quoted an example of a sterotype that is not true there.

For mine, indigneous players have an abundance of a certain x factor that I just love watching.. especially live. There is a higher "freakishness" factor in their games on a whole and I'm really drawn to this. Peter Daicos is my favorite all time player. My racial sterotyping says there's No way he was white the way he played! I'm sure he was really a black man doing white-face impersonations.

Just because some people are morons and extend stereotypes to the individual doesn't mean the smart decent people in the world should be banned from using them where appropriate.
 
The bolded sentence is the one that I dispute. I think on a percentage basis, the hit rate for indigenous players making the grade at AFL level after being drafted is higher than for non-indigenous players across the league. I don't know this but this would be my read on it. Would like to see some stats on that. I'd say you've quoted an example of a sterotype that is not true there.

For mine, indigneous players have an abundance of a certain x factor that I just love watching.. especially live. There is a higher "freakishness" factor in their games on a whole and I'm really drawn to this. Peter Daicos is my favorite all time player. My racial sterotyping says there's No way he was white the way he played! I'm sure he was really a black man doing white-face impersonations.

Just because some people are morons and extend stereotypes to the individual doesn't mean the smart decent people in the world should be banned from using them where appropriate.

Good post doodles. My points don't really relate to your post, not directly, but just thought your post was righteous.

Indigenous players do often exhibit a lot of 'X factor' on the footy field, in the way they read and navigate the play as much as anything else. But I'd agree with some other posters that the generalisations can go too far.

There is something interesting (if you think cans of worms are interesting) in this year's draft, and with the recruitment of the Indigenous boys, when you think that Rendell resigned from the Crows a few years back for suggesting that clubs might steer clear of recruiting Aboriginal players. I'd say that his comment that clubs might only recruit Aboriginal players with at least one white parent was given too much significance by the media, but it does make you wonder about what stereotypes and generalisations the recruiters are working with.
 
The bolded sentence is the one that I dispute. I think on a percentage basis, the hit rate for indigenous players making the grade at AFL level after being drafted is higher than for non-indigenous players across the league. I don't know this but this would be my read on it. Would like to see some stats on that. I'd say you've quoted an example of a sterotype that is not true there.

For mine, indigneous players have an abundance of a certain x factor that I just love watching.. especially live. There is a higher "freakishness" factor in their games on a whole and I'm really drawn to this. Peter Daicos is my favorite all time player. My racial sterotyping says there's No way he was white the way he played! I'm sure he was really a black man doing white-face impersonations.

Just because some people are morons and extend stereotypes to the individual doesn't mean the smart decent people in the world should be banned from using them where appropriate.

For mine, as well as moments of sublime skill, the attribute that is most often off the scale with Indigenous footballers is spacial awareness. You could write a thesis suggesting that has occurred due to the skills necessary to survive and thrive in a hunter gatherer society. Whereas, the higher degree of consistent work rate, often found in white footballers, may stem from the skills necessary to survive and thrive in a farming community. But I don't consider there to be much benefit in doing so.

Whereas you think extending stereotypes to individuals is only done by morons, I think most of us do it to some degree. It's how we make sense of the world. Marketers go out of their way to have their product viewed as part of a positive stereotype. People wear certain brands of clothes and drink certain brands of beer because of how they are viewed by others. We see people drinking a certain brand of beer and we assume things about them. We see people dressed in a certain way and we assume things about them. We see someone's racial background and we assume things about them. Much of these assumptions are subconscious, but the effects of them are very real for the individuals who suffer from negative stereotyping.

The morons are unable to change their view when faced with clear evidence. It took a lot of supporters a long time to realise that Andrew Krakouer was slow - some still view him as having been fast, simply because of the stereotype of Indigenous footballers. Similarly, it took a long time for Dale Thomas - the long haired, flashy half forward to overcome the soft tag - despite his attack on the ball being frenetic. However rare pure morons may be - not very rare in my opinion, we are all morons to some degree and the ignorance of racial stereotyping does often have really negative effects on the lives of those who come from an unfashionable culture. I believe the real issue that underpins racism is stereotyping and that we should be trying to reduce the amount of it within society. Therefore, I consider statements such as Indigenous footballers are more skillful to be as negative and dangerous as indigenous footballers are more lazy.
 
Thanks for the lesson on stereotyping people according to their race. I'm still glad we have recruited some highly skilled Aboriginal footy players.

I'm off to tell the NBA that white men really can jump.

That's nice. While you're at it, get them to remove Larry Bird from their Hall of Fame, because black basketballers are better than white basketballers, therefore they must have made a mistake.
 

P1ET1ME

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Oct 4, 2016
114
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Collingwood
Given the new era we're embarking on I have one wish for this year aside from number 16, Leon Davis to be inducted into our HOF (along with Sav).

Its fair to say our past with indigenous footballers has been checkered, but Leon lit up the MCG like no other and will be our indigenous games record holder for at least the next decade having held the tiltle for 15 years already.

His accomplishments should be acknowledged to a greater degree than they have already, IMO, and I hope it's 2017 that he receives the recognition for his contribution to the club that he deserves!
Agree. Good post. All Australian at both ends as well which puts him in rare company.
 
That's nice. While you're at it, get them to remove Larry Bird from their Hall of Fame, because black basketballers are better than white basketballers, therefore they must have made a mistake.

One decent white guy out of how many black guys? Did you watch the 100 metre final at the Olympics?
 

doodles98

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Aug 6, 2012
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Good post doodles. My points don't really relate to your post, not directly, but just thought your post was righteous.

Indigenous players do often exhibit a lot of 'X factor' on the footy field, in the way they read and navigate the play as much as anything else. But I'd agree with some other posters that the generalisations can go too far.

There is something interesting (if you think cans of worms are interesting) in this year's draft, and with the recruitment of the Indigenous boys, when you think that Rendell resigned from the Crows a few years back for suggesting that clubs might steer clear of recruiting Aboriginal players. I'd say that his comment that clubs might only recruit Aboriginal players with at least one white parent was given too much significance by the media, but it does make you wonder about what stereotypes and generalisations the recruiters are working with.
The Rendell one is a good case study I think. Here was a person participating in a study to enhance the understanding of the particular "issues" facing indigenous footballers in the AFL system. From my understanding of what was said, Rendell used a first person voice in talking about the reluctance to recruit because of a perception of there being greater "go home" and integration issues. The "only if they have one white parent" was a pretty strange comment if you ask me and a hard one to see having much wider acceptance in the recruitment community. Thus he gave the impression that that is how he felt and thought. So I can understand his comments causing concern and being reported. When you are discussing this sort of thing you need to choose your words carefully and Rendell certainly did himself no favors here. That said, I think it was pretty obvious he was trying to be helpful and honestly account for a perception he has (or a suggested wider one) of a problem. It's an unfortunate fact of our modern society that poorly chosen words are given the focus and negative interpretation rather than the often more obvious positive intent and message behind them. To every action there's a reaction so this kind of thing is never helpful.. just unfortunate. As Jimeoin says: "It's better to be a pedophile than a racist these days."
 

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jackcass

Cancelled
10k Posts Magpie Service Medal Collingwood - Josh Daicos Player Sponsor 2021 Collingwood - Tyler Brown Player Sponsor 2020 Collingwood Magpies AFLW - Sarah Rowe Player Sponsor 2019
Oct 8, 2007
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Bendigo
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My favourite player since the Master, his premature retirement had a lot to do with not winning the 2012 flag, I mean, who the **** retires after making the AA team?

Yeah, it's like someone retiring after winning the F1 world championship....
 
The Rendell one is a good case study I think. Here was a person participating in a study to enhance the understanding of the particular "issues" facing indigenous footballers in the AFL system. From my understanding of what was said, Rendell used a first person voice in talking about the reluctance to recruit because of a perception of there being greater "go home" and integration issues. The "only if they have one white parent" was a pretty strange comment if you ask me and a hard one to see having much wider acceptance in the recruitment community. Thus he gave the impression that that is how he felt and thought. So I can understand his comments causing concern and being reported. When you are discussing this sort of thing you need to choose your words carefully and Rendell certainly did himself no favors here. That said, I think it was pretty obvious he was trying to be helpful and honestly account for a perception he has (or a suggested wider one) of a problem. It's an unfortunate fact of our modern society that poorly chosen words are given the focus and negative interpretation rather than the often more obvious positive intent and message behind them. To every action there's a reaction so this kind of thing is never helpful.. just unfortunate. As Jimeoin says: "It's better to be a pedophile than a racist these days."
The "only if they have one white parent" comment is interesting. Kirby grew up fostered by a white family after his parents died. Is it a coincidence that he's our first indigenous draftee for years?
 
Oct 14, 2015
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The "only if they have one white parent" comment is interesting. Kirby grew up fostered by a white family after his parents died. Is it a coincidence that he's our first indigenous draftee for years?

I hope with Kirby it is correlation not causation: that they looked at his footy, spoke to his referees, listened to his answers etc. Hard to ever know. Am not sure Rendell would speak freely on this topic, even to Hine, given his past sanction.

As an aside, as much as we might want to deny it, it seems everyone of us has biases hard-wired in our brains. Neuroscientists and evolutionary psychologists attribute these biases as having had a pre-modern advantage to quickly recognise people who were not kin, and therefore maybe a threat. Our challenge is to commit to fair thinking and processes that limit these biases, not smash each other if they unwittingly emerge.
 

doodles98

Cancelled
Aug 6, 2012
6,867
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AFL Club
Collingwood
The "only if they have one white parent" comment is interesting. Kirby grew up fostered by a white family after his parents died. Is it a coincidence that he's our first indigenous draftee for years?
Didn't know that. All I can say is I seriously hope it was not even remotely a genuine consideration and that Rendell was just seeking to make an emphasis to his point when he said that.
 

jackcass

Cancelled
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Oct 8, 2007
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The "only if they have one white parent" comment is interesting. Kirby grew up fostered by a white family after his parents died. Is it a coincidence that he's our first indigenous draftee for years?

Yep, just a coincidence. I think the "go home" factor risk with indigenous kids is a very specific sub-set of potential indigenous draftees comprising players from remote communities and the shy kids from WA-SA-NT with strong family linkages. Doubt they'd have any concerns at all with Kirby.
 
Yep, just a coincidence. I think the "go home" factor risk with indigenous kids is a very specific sub-set of potential indigenous draftees comprising players from remote communities and the shy kids from WA-SA-NT with strong family linkages. Doubt they'd have any concerns at all with Kirby.
I'm not sure the go home factor per se was really Rendell's concern, more the ability for indigenous players to actually adjust to the very different lifestyle that is city vs remote community. It's certainly not something I'd expect to be an issue for Kirby, with Lake Boga being relatively remote, but predominantly white community living much the same lifestyle as anyone would somewhere just outside Melbourne like Yarra Glen albeit with a much smaller population.
 

jackcass

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I'm not sure the go home factor per se was really Rendell's concern, more the ability for indigenous players to actually adjust to the very different lifestyle that is city vs remote community. It's certainly not something I'd expect to be an issue for Kirby, with Lake Boga being relatively remote, but predominantly white community living much the same lifestyle as anyone would somewhere just outside Melbourne like Yarra Glen albeit with a much smaller population.

Yep, players fail to adjust, they go home.... I think Lake Boga and Tyntynder are classified as regional rather than remote
 

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