Indigenous players - do they have the motor?

[Upgrayedd]

Black athletes, specifically African Americans, have short twitch muscle fibres that allow them to succeed in sports that require 'bursts' (short distance running for 100m sprints and vertical leap for NBA).

But if you listen to delirious1 you'd grow up imagining that white guys dominate the NBA and own the 100m sprint record.

Tell me who this guy is, Why he's second in the League in Rebounds, 4th in Points, First in Double Doubles, Third in Efficiency ratings. Also won the 3 point shooting contest. He's not bad at all. However he seems to have the wrong shade about him...

Uh, White guys dont dominate the NBA? I need my eyes Checked, Because im pretty sure 3 of the last 5 guys to win the NBA MVP are white. Plus Kevin Love Ain't too shabby either. Dont bring up a sport i love to try to convince me that blacks are somehow better at the sport Because the best 3 players ever happened to be Black.

Again thats an incredibly pig headed statement. It's more to do with the Black Culture and Basketball to explain why more NBA players are African origin rather then the "Fast Twitch Muscle" that white people supposidly do not have. Watching Baseball where you would need Fast Twitch Muscles every "Race" has legends of every colour, However shouldnt black people Dominate the sport if it has to do with simply

It all comes deep down from people who are looking for reasons why Black people and white people are different somehow, and when people throw hairball theories like that possibly giving an expanation of it people tend to agree to justify deep down they think black and white people are more different and worlds apart. It's almost exclusively a cultural and a enviroment thing why we are different, not a huge genetic difference like you suggest

 

[Blue and Silver]

The racism here is astonishing.

Your ethnic heritage has no impact on your endurance, because endurance is achieved through cardio-vascular exercise, a good diet and commitment. Indigenous Australians are less likely to have equal access to the dietary requirements, other methods besides running to gain cardio (like exercise bikes or swimming pools) and well trained fitness instructors who understand the best way to develop a strong cardio. Despite this there are numerous Indigenous athletes who have excellent endurance, amongst them Andrew Walker who wins Carlton's time trial almost every year, and Ed Curnow who won it this year.

 

[shifty mp]

Racism & gross ignorance are not mutually exclusive.

When its suggested kids are being excluded as not having the motor, then the AFL pens a rebuttal, I'm at a loss for the discussion to wander off into world sport/sprinters/distance runners/swimmers.

Clearly there are many examples of indigenous Aussie Rules footballers going back 50+ years, who prove the game would lose big time IF footy ability is not the major criteria in drafting.

 

[bunsen burner]

Hahaha wow, so much ignorance in this thread...

Roos has a point, unfortunately people have taken it the wrong way.

And so have most on this thread.

My take is Roos disagrees with the 2+2 rule and has structured an argument around it in the style of "someone think about the kids". He's taken to using an Eddie McGuire type of argument to try and curry favour.

He should never have brought aboriginality into it. He should have stopped at "many footballer's footballers will miss out". It happened in the late 90s with "athletes" and now it's happening again. This is all he needs to argue.

 

[sTeeL]

He should never have brought aboriginality into it. He should have stopped at "many footballer's footballers will miss out". It happened in the late 90s with "athletes" and now it's happening again. This is all he needs to argue.

Why? It isn't necessarily a genetic trait which means they have a low endurance but a cultural one.

 

[radiojake]

There is no biological sound basis for 'race' - It's a social construct based on arbritary physical differences such as skin pigmentation. From a pure biological sense, it would make more sense to divide humans into 'races' based on different blood types - but that would be rather difficult to do.


Environmental and cultural factors weigh much more on an individuals athletic ability - Skin pigmentation has nothing to do with it.

On the basketball note; my girlfriend spent recently spent time in Seattle and was taken to a college basketball game - Seattle Huskies vs some other team (she couldn't remember) - The guy who took her to the game made a comment as the other team entered the arena 'Oh, look here, this other team are all white guys, this game is going to be an easy win'

As it turned out, the Huskies lost and were kicked out of the playoffs by a team of white guys.


Also - all you jerks with your '1/4th aboriginal, or 1/16th aboriginal' bullshit quantative attempt at classifying 'race' invariably point out how ridiculous the whole concept is.

 

[bunsen burner]

Why? It isn't necessarily a genetic trait which means they have a low endurance but a cultural one.

His point is NOT about aborigines missing out. He has used this as an example because he thought it would tear at the emotions of people and thereby garner support. This is his likely thought process.

1. I don't like that 2+2 rule
2. it endangers players without a tank
3. How do i best sell my argument? I know, aborigines are perceived to have dazzling skills but average motors so I will use them to strengthen my argument.

He's using them and I think it's transparent. Sheedy used to do this all the time too.

Paul Roos is being a knob.

 

[17beams]

The racism here is astonishing.

Your ethnic heritage has no impact on your endurance, because endurance is achieved through cardio-vascular exercise, a good diet and commitment. Indigenous Australians are less likely to have equal access to the dietary requirements, other methods besides running to gain cardio (like exercise bikes or swimming pools) and well trained fitness instructors who understand the best way to develop a strong cardio. Despite this there are numerous Indigenous athletes who have excellent endurance, amongst them Andrew Walker who wins Carlton's time trial almost every year, and Ed Curnow who won it this year.

That's completly untrue, genetics play a huge part in determining your althetic ability and attributes. Whilst it is possible to become a lot better at endurance than other components of fitness, your gentic make up will always have a certain limit at which you can no longer improve.

 

[ManOfClay]

Nathan Djerrkura was up there in our timetrials.

I think while a lot of darker skinned races have more powerful muscles but less endurance, that can always be changed.

A tank can be built, as can power. So it depends on the person to be able to do that. Not on their race. If Lewis Jetta put his mind to it, he'd develop a motor for example.

 

[THRILLHO]

Tell me who this guy is, Why he's second in the League in Rebounds, 4th in Points, First in Double Doubles, Third in Efficiency ratings. Also won the 3 point shooting contest. He's not bad at all. However he seems to have the wrong shade about him...

Uh, White guys dont dominate the NBA? I need my eyes Checked, Because im pretty sure 3 of the last 5 guys to win the NBA MVP are white. Plus Kevin Love Ain't too shabby either. Dont bring up a sport i love to try to convince me that blacks are somehow better at the sport Because the best 3 players ever happened to be Black.

You got me.

Using one of the THREE (and Dirk barely counts this year) white guys (out of 24) selected for the All-Star game last weekend totally refutes my point. Besides, doesn't it actually help reinforce my point? Dirk, Love and Nash all play a "fundamental" type of game built entirely around substance, smarts and high basketball IQ and completely devoid of any flash or style. Compare Derrick Rose to Steve Nash, Kevin Love to Blake Griffin.

Because im pretty sure 3 of the last 5 guys to win the NBA MVP are white.

Yeah, well, that's just selective quoting. If you look at the MVP as a whole, rather than just picking an arbitrary figure, since Nash's win in '05 you have to go back to 1986 to find the next white guy who won the prize.

Anyway, it's a complex topic and I can't be bothered trying to pick it apart. There's an excellent piece on grantland.com looking at why there are less black quarterbacks in the NFL than white guys but I can't find it atm.

 

[barmy44]

As for the swimming, the swimming thing seems to be more cultural than anything. Swimming is expensive. You need the gear, money to pay access to a pool, heck, you need access to a pool in the first place. Many african nations lack the access to water and a properly funded swimming program. Both swimming and running demand fitness and endurance, the ability to extend the body for long periods of time without breaking. I mean there's suggestions about bone density and different types of muscles, but that seems to be a different issue to the psychological and physical issue of endurance which I think indigenous/black people can easily have.

pair of speedos?

the point you quoted is a valid one. plenty of black athletes in america who have access to everything needed to become world class swimmers, given america is one of the strongest swimming nations in the world.

it is not racist to suggest black athletes excel in some areas in which white athletes do not, or vice versa.

 

[mehow2g]

I agree with Roo's they also dont have the strength(most of them).

I dont see how its racist... wouldnt saying "white man cant jump" be racist aswell?

 

[barmy44]

I agree with Roo's they also dont have the strength(most of them).

I dont see how its racist... wouldnt saying "white man cant jump" be racist aswell?

or carl lewis' quote 'blacks are made better'... in a lot of sports, he has a point. it isnt a 'racist' one, however.

there is plenty of biological evidence that black athletes and white athletes have different genetic advantages.

it becomes racist when the view is put forth that black athletes enjoy athletic prowess at the expense of intelligence, which used to be the dominant view.

even without the biological evidence, you need only look at results:

• 100m sprint results, 1980 was the last time a white athlete won at the olympics.
• The top 60 times in the 3000m steeple chase are all held by Kenyan athletes.
• white athletes dominate swimming events, as has already been pointed out.
• anyone care to name the last black winner of the tour de france? there hasnt been one. in fact, the first ever black cyclist to compete did so this decade.

 

[Galileo9]

i generally can see how this whole thing is seen as racist, and ive tried to understand what the arguement is.

I think Hirdy/Roosy should have clarified the arguement. I think they meant to say that it will affect the 'highly skilled indigenous small forwards' as opposed to general indigenous players. Coaches are happy to trade off running ability for that highly skilled game that indigenous bring. And given that percentage wise there are more indigenous players than overall population, its difficult to expect all to have running ability. Id say if indigenous playuers didnt play afl, these players would be replaced by white players who themselves have no running ability. so back to square one.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

The racism here is astonishing.

Your ethnic heritage has no impact on your endurance, because endurance is achieved through cardio-vascular exercise, a good diet and commitment. Indigenous Australians are less likely to have equal access to the dietary requirements, other methods besides running to gain cardio (like exercise bikes or swimming pools) and well trained fitness instructors who understand the best way to develop a strong cardio. Despite this there are numerous Indigenous athletes who have excellent endurance, amongst them Andrew Walker who wins Carlton's time trial almost every year, and Ed Curnow who won it this year.

Point clearly made and well reasoned. Thanks.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

That's completly untrue, genetics play a huge part in determining your althetic ability and attributes. Whilst it is possible to become a lot better at endurance than other components of fitness, your gentic make up will always have a certain limit at which you can no longer improve.

You are sort of right but also very wrong.

Genetics do play a part, but race/ethnicity can be a low determining factor of genetic variability.

Race is as mentioned a social construct and even ethnicity, is as much culture, language and locality as it is a notion of (or actual) shared heritage.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

very crisp

I'm so sick of everyone crying racist everytime there is any question or critique of anyone who is aboriginal. I sincerely doubt the same whinging would occur if someone question the height or natural strength of an Asian. It is obvious that between races there is some genetic differences with differnt attributes.

I wonder if it is an issue with weight. A lot of aboriginal players struggle badly to maintain a decent playing weight...I imagine a lot of these players are ones who 'dont have the motor'. Often this is put down to laziness etc but it obviously is more than that. They just have a build that is very difficult to keep trim. How many aboriginals in all walks of life have the traditional top stack of skinny legs and a large upper body. Conversely there are also by nature a lot of skinny very fast and fit aboriginals. The fit aboriginal players we have seen tend to be lean and fast....I don't think it is coincidence. I think it is linked to weight.

Actually average height in many East Asian countries has been on the increase, the main reason being dietary change and lifestyle factors.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I think Paul Roos got this one wrong. He is just looking for an excuse to disagree with the AFL and is clutching at straws with this one. He is right in that the 2 and 2 experiment is flawed, but citing indigenous Australians as being effected without any evidence is very naive.

Paul Roos naive? With all the years he has been in the game as a player and coach? I would rather Roos' opinion, racist warts and all the rest that you may choose to see in his view, over the views of armcchair posters any day. So we conclude just for political correctness sake that we all have precisely the same levels of endurance etc no matter what colour our skin may be? How dull it is to be so even and fair all the time.

 

[Silvagnis]

Altitude training will turn a speedster into a running machine like Craig Bradley and Shane Crawford.



Just another whinge by the coaches who are trying to interfere with the AFL commission's running of the game.

The sky is falling...

The racism here is astonishing.

Your ethnic heritage has no impact on your endurance, because endurance is achieved through cardio-vascular exercise, a good diet and commitment. Indigenous Australians are less likely to have equal access to the dietary requirements, other methods besides running to gain cardio (like exercise bikes or swimming pools) and well trained fitness instructors who understand the best way to develop a strong cardio.

What's stopping an endurance runner from improving their speed?

Genes have to be a determining factor. Kreuzer has a massive motor and footy smarts, yet he'd never catch Naitanui, Hampson, Stanley and Vickery in a sprint. Lachie Henderson isn't slow like Whitnall was, yet you couldn't train him up to match Franklin (for example) for speed. Hendo just doesn't have as much fast twitch muscle as Buddy, Naitanui, Jack Watts and Sam Day.

I'm not saying that indigenous players lack endurance, but genes appear to give athletes their speed or/and endurance. A footballer can build his endurance, yet you can't turn a sprinter into a marathon runner or miler. Or vice versa. You only have to look at Mclean, Stanton and Sidebottom who have good endurance. They couldn't catch Yarran, Walker and Garlett if their lives depended on it.

Sally Pearson must be a freak.

Despite this there are numerous Indigenous athletes who have excellent endurance, amongst them Andrew Walker who wins Carlton's time trial almost every year, and Ed Curnow who won it this year.

The endurance could be due to Walker's blonde mother having a Scottish background.

 

[Upgrayedd]

You got me.

Using one of the THREE

Actually 4. Plus a Puerto Rican, do we also count mixed heritiges?

Yeah, well, that's just selective quoting. If you look at the MVP as a whole, rather than just picking an arbitrary figure, since Nash's win in '05 you have to go back to 1986 to find the next white guy who won the prize.

So because in the NBA in a 20 year period we had Michael Jordan win it 6 times, Magic Johnson 3 times, Tim Duncan Twice and Karl Malone Twice black people are therefore more athletic? Also your jibe at the white players being more Fundamental is a bit stiff, Do you think Tim Duncan and Karl Malone were not fundamentally sound players? David Robinson? Even Shaq? Its a slag off to K-Love, Dirk and Nash to put them in "not athletic but fundamentally sound players", that in its' self is racist by disqualifying any merit of them having athletic ability.

 

[THRILLHO]

So because in the NBA in a 20 year period we had Michael Jordan win it 6 times, Magic Johnson 3 times, Tim Duncan Twice and Karl Malone Twice black people are therefore more athletic?

You brought up the NBA MVP. You can't just discredit the use of the statistic suddenly because players won it more than once. However, you were more than happy to do the exact same thing to allow your "3 of the last 5" statistic to stand.

We can't go back much further than 1984 for the NBA MVP because that's when the league turned into what it has become. Any further back than that and we're looking at a compromised league with no 3 point line and very shady racial problems.

Also your jibe at the white players being more Fundamental is a bit stiff, Do you think Tim Duncan and Karl Malone were not fundamentally sound players? David Robinson? Even Shaq? Its a slag off to K-Love, Dirk and Nash to put them in "not athletic but fundamentally sound players", that in its' self is racist by disqualifying any merit of them having athletic ability.

It's not a jibe. You just see it that way because you're so desperate to stamp anyone who sees whites and blacks as... white and black as racist. It simply isn't true.

Look, everyone knows Love, Dirk, Nash and almost every other white guy in the league isn't as athletic as black players. Just because I say that Dirk and Nash are foundamentally sound doesn't mean you have to turn around, find ONE black player who was also fundamental and try and hold it against me as though I've insulted their mothers.

It's just basic sports. The more athletic you are the more likely you are to rely on your athletic talents. The less athletic you are the more likely you are to rely on your nous and ball IQ (pre-emptively shutting down your OHMIGOD HE SED ALL BLACKS ARE DUM!)

Why do you think, after 9 years in the Association, Lebron James doesn't have a post game? Because he didn't need it and he could rely on his unbelievable athleticism to make up for that deficiency in his game.

Anyway, that's the last I'm saying on the matter. Unless you decide to overreach again and try and paint me as a racist. You're clearly so focused on painting me as racist that you simply cannot understand that (deep breath and concentrate) ON A WHOLE, white NBA players are less athletically gifted than blacks (this doesn't mean you go and find ONE unathletic black or athletic white to disprove my point and scream racist; on the whole means a majority not every single person to have ever played in the NBA, black or white or indifferent).

 

[Borussia Teeth]

On the basketball note; my girlfriend spent recently spent time in Seattle and was taken to a college basketball game - Seattle Huskies vs some other team (she couldn't remember) - The guy who took her to the game made a comment as the other team entered the arena 'Oh, look here, this other team are all white guys, this game is going to be an easy win'

As it turned out, the Huskies lost and were kicked out of the playoffs by a team of white guys.

Correction: it's the University of Washington Huskies, but their campus is in Seattle WA. Brandon Roy & Detlef Schrempf played basketball there, and the very fine goalkeeper Hope Solo played soccer there.

 

[Mr Ripper]

Paul Roos has obviously never heard of Sonny Pintubi.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

or carl lewis' quote 'blacks are made better'... in a lot of sports, he has a point. it isnt a 'racist' one, however.

there is plenty of biological evidence that black athletes and white athletes have different genetic advantages.

it becomes racist when the view is put forth that black athletes enjoy athletic prowess at the expense of intelligence, which used to be the dominant view.

even without the biological evidence, you need only look at results:

• 100m sprint results, 1980 was the last time a white athlete won at the olympics.
• The top 60 times in the 3000m steeple chase are all held by Kenyan athletes.
• white athletes dominate swimming events, as has already been pointed out.
• anyone care to name the last black winner of the tour de france? there hasnt been one. in fact, the first ever black cyclist to compete did so this decade.

Only because of the US boycott.

 

[Malifice]

It really isn't.

It really is.

As much as the left-wing, PC, latte set would have us believe we're one big harmonious blob of humanity with no distinguishing features or differences, it simply isn't true.

Yes, it really is.

According to the science anyway.

Black athletes, specifically African Americans, have short twitch muscle fibres that allow them to succeed in sports that require 'bursts' (short distance running for 100m sprints and vertical leap for NBA).

This is the most oft cited furphy I hear on this topic.

And there is no scientific evidence to support it at all.