Indigenous round, Dreamtime at the G just tokenistic .... ??

[Kwality]

Is the Indigenous Round an example of the AFL doing some of its best work, very selective spin of the history of whats best for the AFL itself, promoted to the hilt by an unquestioning football media.

Tom Wills, Marngrook, the VFL years, the AFL years, the VFL/AFL, Michael Long, Nicky Winmar , booing Adam Goodes ... the history of our game, albeit very narrowly focussed.

A challenge from the wider media:
The AFL’s Indigenous Round, it needs to be more than tokenistic
http://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/afl...ys&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20170527_TND
The AFL should either scrap both or acknowledge that Indigenous Australians’ contribution to football is more than we and the league are willing to accept.

Personally I'd say its tokenistic, but better than nothing.

Equally I'm concerned by the spin in a recent Kevin Sheedy quote in the run up to this weekend, narrow & misleading, well intentioned buy ignoring the path of the indigenous kids playing this weekend focussing on VFL/AFL history as if the VFL did much at all involving indigenous football.

Then The New Daily article paints the AFL administration in context:
... an AFL spokesperson declared: “Ultimately any view on our game’s history is really a matter for the AFL Commission through the Hall of Fame.”

On this Indigenous weekend we see the Dockers including a new record 8 Indigenous players, chalk it up for the AFL comp, not all that surprising that South Fremantle Footy Club indigenous players had played more than 2000 games during the 20th century, including the likes of generations of the Riolis, and the legend that is Stephen Michael.

Lets hope more is done to ensure a balanced view of the history of our game, not just the AFL spin. That's not to say The New Daily has a focus on anything but the AFL itself, not indigenous footy more broadly.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

WA was decades ahead of Victorians when it came to respect and reasonable treatment of indigenous. Nicky Winmar was lauded as educating Australians about indigenous issue. He mainly educated Victorians. As Roy Masters likes to point out the great Arthur Beatson was made captain of the Australian Rugby League national in 1968.

South Freo was a leader in the 1970's-1990's period but all WA clubs had plenty of indigenous footballers. As you well know Kwality they were winning Sandover medals in the 1950's.

 

[Garlic muncher]

The intentions IMO are twofold, sure the AFL carry on a bit and for sure they make a quid, but i also think they actually do think they are doing a honourable thing, well at least plenty of people on the Commission and within the AFL do, maybe i am naive but that is how i feel.

But at the same time they are a business and every business loves making money.

Was at a game of footy today and for indigenous round, the kids all wore indigenous round jumpers and everyone who wanted to tried some roo stew, crocodile and emu, a fourty gallon drum was used as a smoker burning some gum leaves as a welcome to country sign.

So whilst the AFL do make the $$ and it can be construed as cynical it has filtered down at grass roots as a worthy exercise.

 

[Gigantor]

The linked article goes over plenty of bits and pieces, but does not really offer up a good argument for scrapping the indigenous round and/or the dreamtime game. The whole marn grook debate is an altogether different discussion.

Personally, I see the indigenous round today as being symbolic of enormous strides made over the past 20 years with almost universal acceptance across the footy community. The unique jumpers for the round are popular, and we enjoy Wanganeen's involvement and his eloquence in explaining why it's important to all indigenous people - it's bloody fantastic.

Today, we are poles apart from where we were as recently as 20 years ago. It's a small contribution made by footy, and it's ok that it's a small contribution, we don't and should not carry all the ills of society on our collective shoulders.

 

[telsor]

WA was decades ahead of Victorians when it came to respect and reasonable treatment of indigenous. Nicky Winmar was lauded as educating Australians about indigenous issue. He mainly educated Victorians. As Roy Masters likes to point out the great Arthur Beatson was made captain of the Australian Rugby League national in 1968.

South Freo was a leader in the 1970's-1990's period but all WA clubs had plenty of indigenous footballers. As you well know Kwality they were winning Sandover medals in the 1950's.

In football terms, perhaps, but maybe you should look into the 1967 referendum a bit more.

One of the reasons for the amendment was to give the commonwealth the right to legislate for aboriginals, because until then it was up to the states, and WA (and QLD) had some rather backwards laws on their books with respect to that that were an international embarrassment.

Might also want to look at the numbers for the vote....Sure, it was passed with a massive majority in all states, but WA was by far the lowest 'for' vote (in % terms) while Vic was the highest.

So yeah, in football terms, WA was willing to give aboriginal players a go more than Vic, but in broader terms, not so much.

 

[Kwality]

In football terms, perhaps, but maybe you should look into the 1967 referendum a bit more.

One of the reasons for the amendment was to give the commonwealth the right to legislate for aboriginals, because until then it was up to the states, and WA (and QLD) had some rather backwards laws on their books with respect to that that were an international embarrassment.

Might also want to look at the numbers for the vote....Sure, it was passed with a massive majority in all states, but WA was by far the lowest 'for' vote (in % terms) while Vic was the highest.

So yeah, in football terms, WA was willing to give aboriginal players a go more than Vic, but in broader terms, not so much.

Typically unsubstantiated motherhood statements posing as fact from your good self, again ...

Try the mid 50s East Perth premiership side, the 50s not the 80s telsor, 3 x team of the century Indigenous players (Farmer, Hunt, Kilmurray) plus Billy Roe down from Darwin (http://www.ntnews.com.au/sport/st-m...s/news-story/c0e827576380ede3831d75cdccf55cba)

The VFL were decades behind both WA & SA when it comes to the recognition of indigenous footballers.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Using sporting occasions as platforms for political virtue signalling ( of whatever wing colour or opinion ) is always fraught with danger.

I wish there were no such occasions. For me Saturday night was Richmond V Essendon in Round 10 of the AFL season. No more. No less.

 

[papabear]

A strange piece, to quote Tom Heenan, "They have given white Australians more than they deserve and it’s about time we honoured them and their game in a more meaningful way."

For someone who sees australia as a divide between white Australians and aboriginal Australians, referring to them like that suggest he says himself as not a part of either? Like he is some god floating above this illusory race war that is supposed to be happening.

 

[gaelictiogar]

A strange piece, to quote Tom Heenan, "They have given white Australians more than they deserve and it’s about time we honoured them and their game in a more meaningful way."

For someone who sees australia as a divide between white Australians and aboriginal Australians, referring to them like that suggest he says himself as not a part of either? Like he is some god floating above this illusory race war that is supposed to be happening.

That quote is a perfect example of the weird and unhealthy mix of paternalistic do good-ery and self loathing indulgence of some kind of inherited guilt that lies behind most if not all of these absurd exercises in corporate halo shining we have to endure nowadays.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Whatever one's view on the Marngrook connection to the early game, Heenan makes one valid point.

The AFL should publicly acknowledge that the views of some historians (eg G. Hibbins in 2008) that there is no evidence that Marngrook was played in the general vicinity of Moyston (near the Wills' Lexington homestead) in the 1840's is erroneous.

Similarly, the AFL should publicly acknowledge that it is certainly arguable & probable (given Wills was known to play with Aboriginal children whilst he was a child -the only white child in the district, became fluent in their language, could perform their dances & songs etc, Aboriginals enquired about him when he went to Melb. etc) that Wills played Marngrook as a child.

The marngrook debate will probably never be solved conclusively.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Whatever one's view on the Marngrook connection to the early game, Heenan makes one valid point.

The AFL should publicly acknowledge that the views of some historians (eg G. Hibbins in 2008) that there is no evidence that Marngrook was played in the general vicinity of Moyston (near the Wills' Lexington homestead) in the 1840's is erroneous.

Similarly, the AFL should publicly acknowledge that it is certainly arguable & probable (given Wills was known to play with Aboriginal children whilst he was a child -the only white child in the district, became fluent in their language, could perform their dances & songs etc, Aboriginals enquired about him when he went to Melb. etc) that Wills played Marngrook as a child.

The marngrook debate will probably never be solved conclusively.

MO would be was influenced in ways by aboriginals when he was a kid that he would not even be aware of as we all are influenced by our environment.

Just as he was influenced by boarding at Rugby school.

I have no doubt that his skill at ball games and coordination was developed by him playing with aboriginal kids in probably what would have been a care free, free spirited environment, compare that upbringing with the military style rugby school and then compare the unstructured no off side game of AF to the rigid military style Rugby game.

 

[BringBackTorps]

MO would be was influenced in ways by aboriginals when he was a kid that he would not even be aware of as we all are influenced by our environment.

Just as he was influenced by boarding at Rugby school.

I have no doubt that his skill at ball games and coordination was developed by him playing with aboriginal kids in probably what would have been a care free, free spirited environment, compare that upbringing with the military style rugby school and then compare the unstructured no off side game of AF to the rigid military style Rugby game.

The early Melb. Rules ie 17.5.1859 (21.8.1858 Rules have not survived) were certainly "minimalist" -only ten rules! NOTHING like the voluminous, complicated Rules of the Rugby school.
It can be deduced from newspaper reports, as D. Thompson says (see History Forum-Origins thread), that the"21.8.1858 Rules...(had) a catching practice, the mark, rewarded by a free kick and the absence of an off-side rule".
So your "care free, free spirited "remarks are apt -but not conclusive proof of anything. The Origin Thread above is best for discussions about any possible influence of Marngrook.

Prof. Hocking & her team will soon, hopefully, publish their book on the Wills family; & Hocking's apparent pro Marngrook/Melb. Rules thesis. The pressure will then almost certainly be put back on the AFL for an "official"statement re a possible Marngrook connection to Wills and/or the 1858/9 Rules.

 

[telsor]

Typically unsubstantiated motherhood statements posing as fact from your good self, again ...

Try the mid 50s East Perth premiership side, the 50s not the 80s telsor, 3 x team of the century Indigenous players (Farmer, Hunt, Kilmurray) plus Billy Roe down from Darwin (http://www.ntnews.com.au/sport/st-m...s/news-story/c0e827576380ede3831d75cdccf55cba)

The VFL were decades behind both WA & SA when it comes to the recognition of indigenous footballers.

WAFL/SANFL might have been ahead, but clearly as societies, both were well behind Victoria....and the figures are from 1967, not 'the 80s'.

As to why those leagues were ahead...well, a significant higher percentage of the local population/talent was aboriginal...hmmm....


But no, that doesn't fit with your view that everything to do with Victoria is evil paradigm, does it?

 

[Kwality]

WAFL/SANFL might have been ahead, but clearly as societies, both were well behind Victoria....and the figures are from 1967, not 'the 80s'.

As to why those leagues were ahead...well, a significant higher percentage of the local population/talent was aboriginal...hmmm....


But no, that doesn't fit with your view that everything to do with Victoria is evil paradigm, does it?

Aboriginal football is being celebrated, and the history of that involvement is part of the celebration - many seem to represent the 80s as a watershed moment for our game, when they are actually talking about Victorian footy - if that misrepresentation is just ignorance, fine, but maybe our national game could seek to educate 'the great unwashed ' ....
you wouldn't want the role of indigenous footballers in our game represented through the prism of Kevin Sheedy would you?

That Victoria has a small indigenous population is not in question & remember is was Andrew Demetriou who referred to the redneck VFL. Google it, oops it been censored, why would that be?

 

[Tigersman]

Is there anything the AFL does that's more than a token gesture?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Is there anything the AFL does that more than a token gesture?

Mid strength beer

 

[Tigersman]

Mid strength beer

Needs its own thread