Ins and Outs V Carlton

[Jabso]

Davies may not be a superstar but good ordinary battlers go a long way to winning a premiership. Do you think Sydney and Port were full of stars. Even Brisbane had good honest battlers in Copeland, the Scotts, White (at that stage of his career), Notting, McRae, Hart.

 

[Jabso]

who will tag Eddie Betts?

The Heater shall melt this soft marshmallow

 

[Paracetamol Merchant]

That's the problem attitude at our club - too many people that think nearly winning a flag is some sort of achievement - it's not worth a pinch of sh1t.

Instead of marvelling how well we did to get so close with McKee in the ruck, we should be demanding answers as to which bozo is responsible for all our hopes being pinned on such an average ruckman in the biggest game of the year.

Swap McKee with Everitt and the Pies take home the silverware - simple as that.

And Everitt was up for grabs at one stage, make no mistake.

get over it.

 

[Mossi]

That's the problem attitude at our club - too many people that think nearly winning a flag is some sort of achievement - it's not worth a pinch of sh1t.

Instead of marvelling how well we did to get so close with McKee in the ruck, we should be demanding answers as to which bozo is responsible for all our hopes being pinned on such an average ruckman in the biggest game of the year.

Swap McKee with Everitt and the Pies take home the silverware - simple as that.

And Everitt was up for grabs at one stage, make no mistake.

Maybe we could have got Everet. Problem now is we need a ruckman, What options do we have? Cam is a little short and won't win enough rucking contests against the Top sides (we have to win these if we are going to take the silverware home!). I'm a fan of Fanning espescially the way he contests everything around the ground but according to MM and Co Richards is the best option as he can win his fair share of those contests. Watching the replays Guy has won his fair share of contests made mistakes but if we compare the situation with last year the ball is finally coming out of the centre in pie hands. So far we have beaten lowly sides but lets be happy with this as the Dons Hawks and Power are going to trouble the top sides. Our acid test is not far off with the likes of WC dogs and cats with the Swannies and lyons not far off. This is where we will be able to see the true value of our rucks. Cam and Fanning are there waiting their turn.

 

[MarkT]

Dropping a genuine tap ruckman after five adequate games, with a lot of bench time due to the fact the Josh is back in a big way, is not what I'd call looking for premierships. Looking for premierships involves a bit of faith and a bit of long term planning especially with your talls. Faith has brought us a renewed Dane Swan, and a reinvigorated and dangerous Ryan Lonie. Faith has given Harry O'Brien a run ahead of the superior player in Shane Wakelin. Faith has Thomas in the ones' despite his skinny boned body. And Maxwell's scratchy early season form has been forgiven, because MM has faith in the kid. Not to mention Trav, who is not doing enough to justify his spot, but wont be dropped because he's on a learning curve.

Who is the genuine tap ruckman? I held out high hopes for Richards and it ain’t over yet but the reality is this year he has not got enough taps and the ones he ahs got have not overall been of genuine tap ruckman quality. The main issue though is his similarity in terms of opponent suitability and unsuitability to Josh. We need a different type which is why Cam seems our only option. If he can’t cut it then fair enough but I can’t see how we lose anything at this point. If Richards strikes form at Willi then bring him back as first ruck by all means. As a ruckman and only a ruckman that can be his only position. He doesn’t give enough around the ground at this point to put Josh out of the number 1 slot.

As for faith well all I’ll say is Ben Kinnear. Faith is good but judgement is much more important. Faith over judgement has cost us flags as long as I’ve been alive. If you want to win a flag you need to have a good run with injury and team stability. What will win us a flag? IMO it is more likely that two different types of ruckman will serve us better so I want to install that into the team right now. I don’t want to delist Richards just swap him for someone else and see how he goes at the lower level.

 

[MarkT]

Clark Keating is a good ruckman...I never thought him premiership material but he found himself in the right form at the right place in the right circumstance. So he dominates two grand finals against us and looks likes a champ, which he isnt (he cant stay on the park for one). Josh is our best option...Richards is our second best (besides Anthony). Cant fall into the trap of comparing every ruckman to Cox and Everitt.

I'd give Richards til the mid-season break to improve.

Importantly he also had the right opponents in two grand finals. That is my real issue. It’s about us not them.

 

[MarkT]

Well you are a fool.

We damn near won a premiership with bloody Steve McKee doing the taps.

Maybe I am a fool or maybe I just disagree with one but I’ve seen too many “damn near” premierships that have not been followed up with corrective action and ultimately we never got to win one. Then Mathews came along and when we lost in the 1988 and 1989 finals he did something about the midfield and forward line and low and behold we win one.

Now take a leaf out of hotpies book and argue with relevant points rather than insults. You don’t have t agree but don’t be so arrogant as to assume anyone who disagrees with you is a fool. I doubt you are that brilliant.

But I think the thing you have to look at is, whether or not Richards is as good as other back-up rucks going around.

Who can we think of? Seaby, Blake, Campbell. I don't think he's outclassed in that respect.

No, the thing that is important is whether our rucks are outclassed by the leading contenders’ and if so where and why and try and counter that. The issue in my eyes is that if an opponent beats Josh he will generally beat Richards because they are similar and get beaten by similar opponents. Therefore we need someone that can counter the deficiencies of the number 1 and that means a bigger bodied crash ruckman. As for who is best off as number 1 well at this point it is Josh but if Richards passes him that is fantastic. At this point though neither WIN their ruck position. Josh gives a fair bit as a follower but that isn’t the where we lost a flag or two.

 

[MarkT]

Instead of marvelling how well we did to get so close with McKee in the ruck, we should be demanding answers as to which bozo is responsible for all our hopes being pinned on such an average ruckman in the biggest game of the year.

Spot on! As the saying goes hindsight is 20/20 but some people decided Pavlich or Haselby were worth giving up to get McKee. They were clearly wrong. Since then the ruck has not been adequately addressed. I’m not saying it is simply a matter of wishing and making it happen but a number of people get paid good money to get results and haven’t got them. The winners make it happen and the rest talk about how good an effort was to nearly make it to the top. I can handle missing out or not being good enough but I can’t handle not addressing the deficiencies that lead that to be the case.

To put it into perspective, we knew Monkurst was at or near the end in the late 90's. It is now 2006. We have not had one player who has been able to hold his own as a ruckman for that long. Either the coach doesn't think the role is important in which case he disagrees with the winners of all the premierships since Monkey retired or we haven't been good enough to get one.

 

[Us3]

Spot on! As the saying goes hindsight is 20/20 but some people decided Pavlich or Haselby were worth giving up to get McKee. They were clearly wrong. Since then the ruck has not been adequately addressed. I’m not saying it is simply a matter of wishing and making it happen but a number of people get paid good money to get results and haven’t got them. The winners make it happen and the rest talk about how good an effort was to nearly make it to the top. I can handle missing out or not being good enough but I can’t handle not addressing the deficiencies that lead that to be the case.

To put it into perspective, we knew Monkurst was at or near the end in the late 90's. It is now 2006. We have not had one player who has been able to hold his own as a ruckman for that long. Either the coach doesn't think the role is important in which case he disagrees with the winners of all the premierships since Monkey retired or we haven't been good enough to get one.

do you actually enjoy the football?

 

[MarkT]

do you actually enjoy the football?

Absolutely. I go often. My wife is also a social club member and my 3 ear old son is a junior member. I yell a lot and I get frustrated with some of our players who cost us regularly. When we have deficiencies I want to see them addressed. I don't think we are infallible and I wish more Collingwood people were more demanding because in my lifetime I have seen 8 grand finals for 1 win and a draw and been alive for another 2 losses. It's time we won flags and accepted no excuses for not wining them. Then I would enjoy it even more.

How do you feel about losing grand finals then dropping off the pace?

 

[hotpie]

If Richards strikes form at Willi then bring him back as first ruck by all means. .

If Cam strikes form at Willy then bring him in to replace Richards.

Selection should be a simple process. Only players with consistently excellent form in the seconds should push for a senior game. At the moment only Yakka and Pendlebury fit this category. Cloke's simply not doing enough to push Richards out just yet.

 

[pieman1]

It's looks as though the Blues will bring in Kennedy and he is one big unit. That could mean a forward line of Fev, Kennedy and Deluca. While we have some defenders in Clement and Max who can play tall it won't be enough. Wakelin will come in to CHB, Presti on Fev, and Maxwell and Clement on Deluca and Waite. So for me its two to go out and Wakelin and Holland to come in.

PS Brodie will feel a bit lost, a Carlton came and no Campo to annoy.

 

[Paracetamol Merchant]

Absolutely. I go often. My wife is also a social club member and my 3 ear old son is a junior member. I yell a lot and I get frustrated with some of our players who cost us regularly. When we have deficiencies I want to see them addressed. I don't think we are infallible and I wish more Collingwood people were more demanding because in my lifetime I have seen 8 grand finals for 1 win and a draw and been alive for another 2 losses. It's time we won flags and accepted no excuses for not wining them. Then I would enjoy it even more.

How do you feel about losing grand finals then dropping off the pace?

Well I guess you simply have a different outlook to some as I do to others.

You saw the 2002 and 2003 years as complete failures. While I saw them as two fantastic years filled with memories that I will cherish forever.

I don't think winning Premierships are everything, it's the journey that counts. For me at least.

 

[loki04]

Why is everyone in love with Richards he has done nothing he had 1 decent game against the Roos (even in that games he let his opponent get uncontested marks in the f50) and has done Sweet FA in the rest he is a weak link as for being a better Ruck option than Cam how do u figure when Richards is only getting 8-10 hit outs a game!
Cam from all reports has been consistant he had a average game against the Bullants but has played well in the other games, if a player is consistantly playing well (cam) in the seconds and a player in the seniors (Richards) is consistantly crap they should be replaced. It's not like Richards hasn't had a fair crack he's had 5 games to get his act together and he still hasn't let him find form in the willy side.

 

[rychenroller]

I don't think winning Premierships are everything, it's the journey that counts. For me at least.

Everything that the players and staff of a football team do is designed at winning premierships at some stage. If you run second, you run equal second. Sure its awesome to watch the team win games...you sure dont go for a loss, but its all aimed at a premiership.

The viewpoint of every footballer is "I want to win premierships" and as a supporter, so do I.

 

[Paracetamol Merchant]

Everything that the players and staff of a football team do is designed at winning premierships at some stage. If you run second, you run equal second. Sure its awesome to watch the team win games...you sure dont go for a loss, but its all aimed at a premiership.

The viewpoint of every footballer is "I want to win premierships" and as a supporter, so do I.

Fair enough.

I don't.

If I'm different to most then that's fine.

FWIW I do believe we are genuine premeirship contenders this year.

But to be honest, it's just not EVERYTHING to me when I support my team.

 

[Coin_Toss]

I have started to take a keen interest in Richards' ruck work. If he can consolidate as a footballer in the next month we have our selves a very good tap ruckmen. But, for the good of the team, he needs to spend a couple of weeks at Williamstown.

Bring in Cameron Cloke! I think he has improved out of sight and he is a serviceable ruckman + (back up) key forward, just watching him at Williamstown makes me feel how unlucky he is not to be getting games in the Collingwood side. I have been really impressed with him.

 

[MarkT]

If Cam strikes form at Willy then bring him in to replace Richards.

Selection should be a simple process. Only players with consistently excellent form in the seconds should push for a senior game. At the moment only Yakka and Pendlebury fit this category. Cloke's simply not doing enough to push Richards out just yet.

Richards had no pre season form and hasn’t done anything in 5 matches. I agree promotion should be merit based but so should retention. Cam apparently was good last week and crap the previous week. If one stood out over the other then fair enough but as they don’t then the over ride has to be needs and we need a plank not a stick. Frankly I’d much rather play neither of them and play an extra midfielder or Caracella but Rocca will take time to be a ruck option, if that ever happens, and Fraser can’t cut it as a pure ruckman.

 

[Drizt]

Cam's problems is confidence related....

he looks like hes going to drop every mark that comes his way at AFL level yet looks rock solid when at Willy....

he does some stupid things when playing for the pies, yet makes better decisions at willy..

I think he needs to get over his issues and play his natural game at AFL level

 

[MarkT]

Well I guess you simply have a different outlook to some as I do to others.

You saw the 2002 and 2003 years as complete failures. While I saw them as two fantastic years filled with memories that I will cherish forever.

I don't think winning Premierships are everything, it's the journey that counts. For me at least.

Not complete failures but when you lose as many GF’s as we do you have to make a stand and take action as a club. Perhaps you would view 2002 and particularly 2003 in a different light had you been a kid at the G in 1977 and later witnessed 1979, 1980, 1981 etc. We are Collingwood. We lose grand finals. Right know that defines our club and I hate that. I don’t know how old you are but if we don’t address these types of things you will grow to hate it too.

 

[Paracetamol Merchant]

Not complete failures but when you lose as many GF’s as we do you have to make a stand and take action as a club. Perhaps you would view 2002 and particularly 2003 in a different light had you been a kid at the G in 1977 and later witnessed 1979, 1980, 1981 etc. We are Collingwood. We lose grand finals. Right know that defines our club and I hate that. I don’t know how old you are but if we don’t address these types of things you will grow to hate it too.

Yes I am 21.

From what I can tell your attitude is a result of all the Grand Final losses rather than any sought've reflection of an attitude or lack of something at the club.

I don't mean this in a bad way mate, but I think it is a reflection on you and your pain more than anything.

You are saying that losing Grand Finals is a recurring theme and it has something to do with the Club?

Therefore in doing this you are drawing similarities between the 70s and 80s losses to the 02 and 03 losses.

Whereas IMO, you can't at all draw any sought of similarity between the two.

In the 70s and 80s Collingwood was a footballing superpower. There was no salary cap, the club would buy any player and year after year would have the best squad and dominate the league. Until they got to the Grand Final and completely choked.

IMO the structure of the league is so different nowadays that you can't even compare the Collingwood of then, to the Collingwood of now. In 2002 and 2003 our club was relative minnows, there was a salary cap and many things that tell me that the Grand Final losses were far different in nature to the ones that you have endured.

Both years the club was significantly punching above it's weight against far more talented teams such as Port Adelaide, Brisbane and others. In your opinion an 'attitude' or something within the club that accepts Grand Final losses can be mirrored with the ones in the 70s and 80s. But I just don't think you can even mildly compare them as the circumstances of Collingwood's standing within the league were so greatly different.

 

[MarkT]

My attitude is simply that MM didn’t react strongly enough to losing GF’s and that this is a repeat of Collingwood’s history and I want that changed. At the AGM and previously elsewhere Eddie said if you don’t stand for something you stand for nothing. It’s about time we stood for winning premiership. We did once upon a time and that is why we have the numbers we have today. All before any of our times though unfortunately.

If the coach can’t address deficiencies he can’t be the coach IMO. It’s as simple as that. He gets 800k or whatever to win flags not provide an honourable loss and follow up with total embarrassment followed by capitulation because he hasn't handled the list well enough. Well enough BTW is measure from a high bar not a low, mediocrity accepting one. MM has had 6 years to get the ruck right and he hasn’t done. Either he doesn’t rate the role in which case he is out of step with all this centuries premiership coaches or he does but can’t fix it. Either way it’s a fundamental flaw for a 21st century coach.

 

[MarkT]

In the 70s and 80s Collingwood was a footballing superpower. There was no salary cap, the club would buy any player and year after year would have the best squad and dominate the league. Until they got to the Grand Final and completely choked.

That just isn’t how it was. When money came into the game we were too arrogant to offer it for representing our club. When we realised we had to compete in the new world we lacked the skills to get it right. We failed to win premiership because we failed to have enough top line players. There was always someone better.

When we failed we looked externally for blame. My issue is partly with failing to nail one in 2002/3 but more so about the aftermath. Decisions were made about the list that proved wrong. Ok so those that made the calls were empowered with that right/responsibility but they got it wrong and they are still employed to do the same jobs by and large. It is like is always has been at Collingwood. If we want to change it we need a new more ruthless attitude and it starts with more demanding supporters and particularly members.

 

[Mossi]

Yes I am 21.

From what I can tell your attitude is a result of all the Grand Final losses rather than any sought've reflection of an attitude or lack of something at the club.

I don't mean this in a bad way mate, but I think it is a reflection on you and your pain more than anything.

You are saying that losing Grand Finals is a recurring theme and it has something to do with the Club?

Therefore in doing this you are drawing similarities between the 70s and 80s losses to the 02 and 03 losses.

Whereas IMO, you can't at all draw any sought of similarity between the two.

In the 70s and 80s Collingwood was a footballing superpower. There was no salary cap, the club would buy any player and year after year would have the best squad and dominate the league. Until they got to the Grand Final and completely choked.

IMO the structure of the league is so different nowadays that you can't even compare the Collingwood of then, to the Collingwood of now. In 2002 and 2003 our club was relative minnows, there was a salary cap and many things that tell me that the Grand Final losses were far different in nature to the ones that you have endured.

Both years the club was significantly punching above it's weight against far more talented teams such as Port Adelaide, Brisbane and others. In your opinion an 'attitude' or something within the club that accepts Grand Final losses can be mirrored with the ones in the 70s and 80s. But I just don't think you can even mildly compare them as the circumstances of Collingwood's standing within the league were so greatly different.

Well said Paracetamol Merchant.

I lived through all those grandfinals from 1970 to now.I don't believe in bad luck so there is always a reason for us loosing the GF. For example 1970 was the hardest because we were in front and then lost McKenna concussed Greening cramps and who knows who else (the players would'nt tell you) 16 against 18, Carlton applied a short posession game and practically walked the ball to the goal square. We were branded as chokers and the pie haters have kept it alive eversince. We are not chokers and the game and club recruiting has changed. We cannot go out and buy us a new ruckman today! We made mistakes draughting players but the last few years crop look real good, even if we din't get a new ruck. Basically we have got to make do with the players we have. As much as I like Cam and Fanning I have to agree with MM and Co that Richards is the best option for the moment. That does'nt mean he has a morgage on it, but reasoning sais he is the best option. We are not getting killed out of the centre like last year sums it up best! Still I hope Cam is due for a game soon and would be interesting to see how much he has improved.

 

[loki04]

Well said Paracetamol Merchant.

I lived through all those grandfinals from 1970 to now.I don't believe in bad luck so there is always a reason for us loosing the GF. For example 1970 was the hardest because we were in front and then lost McKenna concussed Greening cramps and who knows who else (the players would'nt tell you) 16 against 18, Carlton applied a short posession game and practically walked the ball to the goal square. We were branded as chokers and the pie haters have kept it alive eversince. We are not chokers and the game and club recruiting has changed. We cannot go out and buy us a new ruckman today! We made mistakes draughting players but the last few years crop look real good, even if we din't get a new ruck. Basically we have got to make do with the players we have. As much as I like Cam and Fanning I have to agree with MM and Co that Richards is the best option for the moment. That does'nt mean he has a morgage on it, but reasoning sais he is the best option. We are not getting killed out of the centre like last year sums it up best! Still I hope Cam is due for a game soon and would be interesting to see how much he has improved.

How is he the best option ATM he had 8 hit outs on the weekend ffs even J.Cloke had more when he rucked last year!