Insightful Media Coverage

Wadsworth

All Australian
Jul 21, 2015
796
2,162
AFL Club
West Coast
We have all seen this stat a few times now and know how much Gov wins 1v1 contests. It is pretty simple really Gov reads the play and flight of the ball better than anyone else in the comp.

An interesting stat for me would be how often he wins in a wrestle vs how often he wins in the air.
I don’t want to discredit Gov’s ability in the one on one. He is an absolute gun. But I also suspect the stat is slightly skewed by the context of his contests. Because he does float off his man for intercept possessions, I suspect that he just doesn’t quite engage in contests if he’s out of position and make a desperate lunge when he’s likely beaten.

Again, Gov is the best in the world at what he does, just providing some additional context of my view on the stat.
 

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Wadsworth

All Australian
Jul 21, 2015
796
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Is it the methodology that's off or do players just love kicking them from the 50m arc?
Can’t wait for more analytics to enter footy. There was an article I saw 12months or so ago that speculated that players were better off having a ping whenever they were close to their range. When you consider the probability of a score in addition to the potential rebound score if you get a point, it may be a higher probability play than trying to pinpoint a pass for a higher percentage shot.

Unfortunately the article didn’t really seem to have the data to substantiate the idea. And of course, context matters for all data. Shuey kicking into 50 to JK with Rioli and Cripps at his feet is quite different to Fyfe kicking in to McCarthy.
 

wce4premiership

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 18, 2005
14,624
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Perth
AFL Club
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I don’t want to discredit Gov’s ability in the one on one. He is an absolute gun. But I also suspect the stat is slightly skewed by the context of his contests. Because he does float off his man for intercept possessions, I suspect that he just doesn’t quite engage in contests if he’s out of position and make a desperate lunge when he’s likely beaten.

Again, Gov is the best in the world at what he does, just providing some additional context of my view on the stat.
I think this stat disregards anything that isn't a one on one. He doesn't give someone an uncontested mark just because he's afraid if he engages he would lose the contest and destroy his 1v1 reputation.

It is what it is, when he's there with one opponent, he loses less than any other player in the competition.
 

Wadsworth

All Australian
Jul 21, 2015
796
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Shuey's not as good as Fyfe - that's a fallacy

He's in better form and I'd argue having a better season. But that is where it ends.

Fyfe is in the argument to be the best player in the game - Shuey isn't.

Just because we are a better team, doesn't make all of our players (or the supporters) genius.
It’s nice that there’s at least a discussion to be had though.

Fyfe is a bit like Carmelo Anthony. An inefficient stat hero who hasn’t really ever made his team better.

Shuey is like Kawhi Leonard. It’s not a fluke that he has Finals MVP awards.

I’m not sure if Shuey is better than Fyfe per se, but I strongly suggest that Shuey has more influence on his teams positive performances.
 

HoneyBadger35

Friends, Family, Flex
Aug 11, 2011
15,115
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Gaffy's Dojo
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Can’t wait for more analytics to enter footy. There was an article I saw 12months or so ago that speculated that players were better off having a ping whenever they were close to their range. When you consider the probability of a score in addition to the potential rebound score if you get a point, it may be a higher probability play than trying to pinpoint a pass for a higher percentage shot.

Unfortunately the article didn’t really seem to have the data to substantiate the idea. And of course, context matters for all data. Shuey kicking into 50 to JK with Rioli and Cripps at his feet is quite different to Fyfe kicking in to McCarthy.
I remember that too, I think it made the NBA parallel in terms of an efficient NBA offence being shots right at the basket or threes, with mid range shots not being mathematically valuable. Short of an uncontested player close to goal, having a ping from wherever you are seems have a higher floor than trying to pin point a teammate inside 50. Possibly has a lower ceiling though.
 

Wadsworth

All Australian
Jul 21, 2015
796
2,162
AFL Club
West Coast
I think this stat disregards anything that isn't a one on one. He doesn't give someone an uncontested mark just because he's afraid if he engages he would lose the contest and destroy his 1v1 reputation.

It is what it is, when he's there with one opponent, he loses less than any other player in the competition.
I think you’re missing my point.

Agility isn’t one of Govs strengths. If he gets wrong footed and faces an kick to the advantage of his opposition player, he doesn’t change direction and have the closing speed, so he’s less likely to make the contest than someone like Shep or Duggan with a desperate lunge that is probably fruitless, but they try to get a fingernail to it. It seems to be one of the reasons Buddy gives him trouble. Buddy doesn’t out mark him. He seems to get away from him altogether.

Again, I am happy to point out that Gov is absolutely awesome. Just trying to add some extra discussion around the stat.
 

Wadsworth

All Australian
Jul 21, 2015
796
2,162
AFL Club
West Coast
I remember that too, I think it made the NBA parallel in terms of an efficient NBA offence being shots right at the basket or threes, with mid range shots not being mathematically valuable. Short of an uncontested player close to goal, having a ping from wherever you are seems have a higher floor than trying to pin point a teammate inside 50. Possibly has a lower ceiling though.
Can’t wait until we can compare Shuey’s and Fyfe’s VORP, real +/- and Win Shares to add to the debate!
 

equiv_clearly

Club Legend
Apr 30, 2013
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From the HS today.

How Adam Simpson’s advice helped steel Aussie cricket team

AFL Premiership coach Adam Simpson helped set Australia on its path to Thursday night’s World Cup semi-final by sharing a piece of advice that led to West Coast’s flag.

Australia has adopted the Eagles’ “role clarity” approach, which helped them cover the loss of Andrew Gaff, Nic Naitanui and Brad Sheppard and stun Collingwood in last year’s Grand Final.

“One thing I learnt from Adam Simpson was about roles,” Langer told the Herald Sun.
“Last year in the Eagles’ premiership, it was roles, roles, roles. The players were very clear in their roles, and Simpson said it took so much pressure off.

“So if we give our players roles and we select accordingly, it takes pressure off.
“It was a great lesson from footy and it was a great lesson for me.
“That’s why I’ve got so much out of my relationship with Adam Simpson and West Coast Eagles.”

Langer, a West Coast board member, turned to that advice during December’s four-hour crisis meeting in Melbourne as Australia looked to start again after 18 months of ODI misery.
World Cup players including captain Aaron Finch, David Warner, Glenn Maxwell and Alex Carey and injured batsman Usman Khawaja have repeatedly spoken about their clearly defined roles helping extract their best in the surge to the final four.
Australia lost 22 of 26 ODIs before storming into the semi-finals with 15 wins from its past 17 games.
I love that relationship. Success begets success. And seemingly the best coaches like Clarko draw from their cross-code counterparts.

And I love what JL has done with the Australian cricket team. Again successful and infinitely more likeable. Beat England and Australia will win the World Cup.

We're very lucky to have Simmo. His skill set is comprehensive. He's a great man-manager, he's tactically innovative, he's played a key role in our list management and he's a great advocate for non-Victorian clubs.
 

frenchconnection

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 16, 2009
5,671
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It’s nice that there’s at least a discussion to be had though.

Fyfe is a bit like Carmelo Anthony. An inefficient stat hero who hasn’t really ever made his team better.

Shuey is like Kawhi Leonard. It’s not a fluke that he has Finals MVP awards.

I’m not sure if Shuey is better than Fyfe per se, but I strongly suggest that Shuey has more influence on his teams positive performances.
Being realistic though Shuey gets support from the other midfielders as Fyfe appears to be trying to carry his Club on his shoulders - doesn't get too much support from my observation?
 

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Luuuc

Club Legend
Jun 26, 2011
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The Fyfe hate here is over the top. He's still an excellent player, and his major flaw - his disposal by foot - is overstated out of convenience IMO. Just like others overstate the impact of NicNat's lack of marks & disposals.
Right now Shuey is on fire and I take no issue with claims that he's better than Fyfe this season. In full flight, both players are awesome to watch, and Shuey has been in that mode a lot lately. Fyfe isn't in Brownlow form but he's had plenty of great games this season, with far more attention on him than Shuey gets.

As for Garry Lyon, his obvious Eagles jealousy/envy is just delicious to me. He's not an umpire so if I understand the rules correctly I can freely call him a green maggot.
 

RookiePick

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 13, 2014
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Being realistic though Shuey gets support from the other midfielders as Fyfe appears to be trying to carry his Club on his shoulders - doesn't get too much support from my observation?
Mundy is tiring a little/ carrying a niggle I think. He was huge early doors.

Anyone's guess why Rosco doesn't throw Blakely into the on ball mix more to help out, instead of standing him in defence to get ruined.
 

wce4premiership

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 18, 2005
14,624
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I think you’re missing my point.

Agility isn’t one of Govs strengths. If he gets wrong footed and faces an kick to the advantage of his opposition player, he doesn’t change direction and have the closing speed, so he’s less likely to make the contest than someone like Shep or Duggan with a desperate lunge that is probably fruitless, but they try to get a fingernail to it. It seems to be one of the reasons Buddy gives him trouble. Buddy doesn’t out mark him. He seems to get away from him altogether.

Again, I am happy to point out that Gov is absolutely awesome. Just trying to add some extra discussion around the stat.
Perhaps you're right, but that seems to be unquantifiable at the moment unless they somehow record 'opponents lost' or some such thing you're really going off eye and gut feel (which is sometimes all we have).

The stat is really only saying that when he's engaged with an opponent, he's the best there is. I don't think his lack of agility is helping him in the sense that he might be so far off that it isn't considered a 1v1 to begin with, he's no less agile than Barrass and Hurn.

Buddy beat our system, has done so before. I would say Barrass and sometimes Shep are the defenders that would have a man in the old school sense that wherever possible they will be manning him as a priority, the others I feel roll off opponents constantly, especially Gov. So I don't know that Buddy gets the better of Gov individually, but he certainly has the ability to counter our system of defence as a whole.
 

wce4premiership

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 18, 2005
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The Fyfe hate here is over the top. He's still an excellent player, and his major flaw - his disposal by foot - is overstated out of convenience IMO. Just like others overstate the impact of NicNat's lack of marks & disposals.
Fyfe's kicking isn't as poor as Dangerfield's. Dangerfield is all about territory, just throw it on the boot and gain 55m. Fyfe seems to be similar but he prefers a little 25m sideways kick if it's an option over bombing it every single time. Both lack polish but Fyfe isn't the worst kick in the league by any stretch, in the lower half of the competition perhaps, a little unimaginative as well. Great player though you're right. Walk up start to any team.
 

woosha24

Premium Platinum
Apr 5, 2015
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I love how an offhanded remark about Fyfe being a good player but not "the best" player has devolved into 4 pages of in-depth analysis of both his own, Shuey's and other random player's stats.

Cmon guys. Fyfe is a good player. He just isn't the standout best player playing the game right now.
 

DanWCE

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 2, 2015
6,150
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I think you’re missing my point.

Agility isn’t one of Govs strengths. If he gets wrong footed and faces an kick to the advantage of his opposition player, he doesn’t change direction and have the closing speed, so he’s less likely to make the contest than someone like Shep or Duggan with a desperate lunge that is probably fruitless, but they try to get a fingernail to it. It seems to be one of the reasons Buddy gives him trouble. Buddy doesn’t out mark him. He seems to get away from him altogether.

Again, I am happy to point out that Gov is absolutely awesome. Just trying to add some extra discussion around the stat.
You can't lose the contests you can't get to

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