Insufficient Force

[Cosmic Energy]

Insufficient force has me a little puzzled. I understand it in an 'in play' scenario like a bump that goes a little high with no injury, but I'm struggling with incidents like the Beams on Curnow punch to the guts, or the Mitchell knee to the leg of Scott Thompson which were both assessed as insufficient force.

Looking at the video of the Beams incident, the wind up & grimace from Beams would suggest that he is at least trying to apply plenty of force. Curnow has a strong set of abs I guess, and maybe Beams has poor punching technique.

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-06-30/mrp-beams-in-the-clear

And the Mitchell knee didn't do any damage but does that mean we'd allow all players to get away with that? Can Scott Thompson just knee him back? Knee him all day long?

So while I understand that these incidents aren't exactly serious and not worth a game's suspension on their own, where is the discouragement (e.g. some points) from continuing to do these types of things both at AFL and levels below? Perhaps Mitchell wouldn't do it at a level below where he might risk being knocked out in retaliation with fewer umpires & no TV.

 

[shintemaster]

It's a tough one. I'm hesitant to bring even more scrutiny on minor incidents, that said something like Mitchell's knee is pissweak. Off the ball, player unaware and is hiding behind the fact that it is difficult to retaliate without giving away a free kick or worse. I don't have any issue with issueing fines or very minor points for stupid off the ball stuff. 10 "activation" points might not mean much but could be the difference between a week or none for a serial offender.

The alternative is to highlight, name and shame and hopefully umpires are aware enough that Mitchell might just miss out on a couple or the benefit of the doubt down the track on another decision.

 

[KissKiss]

Insufficient Force really comes down to the player on the receiving end. If they are "tough" and stay up then you might get this. But if you hit someone a bit softer (or who takes a dive) with the exact same force and they go to ground then you are in trouble.

To me it should all be about the intent of the act and not the outcome

 

[Micksy]

I think "insufficient force" should only be used for reckless and negligent incidents. Intentional incidents should be "low force".

 

[Last of the Roys]

Insufficient force is a corruptible cop out used by the MRP when deciding which players to pick on or not pick on each week. Have a look at the Goddard and Rockliff decisions this week (of which about 20 similar incidents happen each and every round).

MRP lotto is an absolute joke.

 

[Devington]

I think "insufficient force" should only be used for reckless and negligent incidents. Intentional incidents should be "low force".

Good point. Only issue is that they generally don't cite very many offences as intentional? Goddard was iirc, but IMO plenty of elbows to jaws and whatnot aren't classified as intentional, which in many cases is just ridiculous.

I think the rule book they have for classification is good. It's just they don't bloody choose the right ones; whether it be differentiating between reckless and intentional, or the ever dumfounding way they measure "force".

 

[KissKiss]

Its pretty much impossible to accidently or negligently throw a punch or elbow

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Every single punch should be classified as intentional if they use their own system properly.

There is no reason to punch someone.

Unless you're spoiling there is no accidental or reckless punching.

So if you want to deter an action, especially an unnecessary one, forget impact and just penalize them all.

 

[KissKiss]

Every single punch should be classified as intentional if they use their own system properly.

There is no reason to punch someone.

Unless you're spoiling there is no accidental or reckless punching.

So if you want to deter an action, especially an unnecessary one, forget impact and just penalize them all.

Agreed and I still don't understand why striking is a lesser incident than rough conduct.

 

[Ari]

Insufficient Force really comes down to the player on the receiving end. If they are "tough" and stay up then you might get this. But if you hit someone a bit softer (or who takes a dive) with the exact same force and they go to ground then you are in trouble.

To me it should all be about the intent of the act and not the outcome

Spot on.

The problem is how do they measure force? Is it whether the other guy goes to ground? And if so, what happens when you get a marshmallow puff like Kane Cornes who goes to ground like he had been shot when he gets a bump off the ball.

Happens 50 times every week but because Cornes was a sook Goddard gets two weeks, down to one. So carry over points. The force was a bump you see in every game in the background, I saw it no less than 5 times over the weekend... none will be called though because the other player was a man and took a bump and gave one back.

Case in point, don't make contact with a marshmallow or you're in trouble.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Insufficient Force really comes down to the player on the receiving end. If they are "tough" and stay up then you might get this. But if you hit someone a bit softer (or who takes a dive) with the exact same force and they go to ground then you are in trouble.

To me it should all be about the intent of the act and not the outcome

Goodes hit Selwood and Selwood took a good minute to be ready to play football again, but Goodes got off.

I think they are a lot more lenient with insufficient force if it is in play, or you come from the Swans

 

[hcd199]

Good point. Only issue is that they generally don't cite very many offences as intentional? Goddard was iirc, but IMO plenty of elbows to jaws and whatnot aren't classified as intentional, which in many cases is just ridiculous.

I think the rule book they have for classification is good. It's just they don't bloody choose the right ones; whether it be differentiating between reckless and intentional, or the ever dumfounding way they measure "force".

That's just it - a rigid classification system can only achieve consistency if it's consistently applied. They give too great a weight to the actual impact of the act, and not the potential impact, which doesn't seem right, but it's not a bad classification system, it's just applied selectively and with the same sorts of biases that moving to the points system was, at least in part, intended to eradicate.

 

[go_the_dockers]

I do understand why Ballas and Goddard got suspended, yet Vince didn't.

Vince's hit looked identical to Ballas

 

[thethinkingcat]

I do understand why Ballas and Goddard got suspended, yet Vince didn't.

Vince's hit looked identical to Ballas

Nope it wasn't. I was actually surprised that kane Cornes didn't go for acting. Cornes has a tendency to go down a little to easily. Even if you put a finger nail on him he will just fall over.

Goodes hit Selwood and Selwood took a good minute to be ready to play football again, but Goodes got off.

Goodes was pushed into Selwood.
Similar to when Shane Crawford was pushed into the umpire by Cameron Ling in the 2008 grand final. Umpire thought that it was deliberate by crawf, looked at the replay and withdrew the report and reported Ling.

I would have thought that Zac Dawson would have got into trouble for pushing dempsey into Pavilich and causing that collision.

Insufficient force has me a little puzzled. I understand it in an 'in play' scenario like a bump that goes a little high with no injury, but I'm struggling with incidents like the Beams on Curnow punch to the guts, or the Mitchell knee to the leg of Scott Thompson which were both assessed as insufficient force.

Looking at the video of the Beams incident, the wind up & grimace from Beams would suggest that he is at least trying to apply plenty of force. Curnow has a strong set of abs I guess, and maybe Beams has poor punching technique.

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-06-30/mrp-beams-in-the-clear

And the Mitchell knee didn't do any damage but does that mean we'd allow all players to get away with that? Can Scott Thompson just knee him back? Knee him all day long?

So while I understand that these incidents aren't exactly serious and not worth a game's suspension on their own, where is the discouragement (e.g. some points) from continuing to do these types of things both at AFL and levels below? Perhaps Mitchell wouldn't do it at a level below where he might risk being knocked out in retaliation with fewer umpires & no TV.

Every reportable incident is judged by the MRP with the medical evidence to the player that was targeted before being cited/withdrawn.
If there's no medical evidence supplied for example Langford going off and throwing up on the sidelines after a whack to the guts causing the player who did it to cop a week or even just a reprimand.
Or better still Matthew Jenche off with the concussion rule and not being able to come back on due to being bumped in the head.

Sam Mitchell can be just as dirty. I remember a few years ago he got punched in the nuts by Daniel Kerr who copped a week for his troubles. I remember a nasty incident where Mitchell had knocked out his opponent.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

Everytime someone gets off for "insufficient force" I go back to Rockliffs pinky on that skirt Rance

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Goodes hit Selwood and Selwood took a good minute to be ready to play football again, but Goodes got off.

I think they are a lot more lenient with insufficient force if it is in play, or you come from the Swans

Swans have a new one now ... insufficient vision. Funny how the game is scrutinized with cameras covering every inch of the ground, but when a Sydney player belts Gunston in the guts, the vision is blurred and inconclusive.

 

[Modified Dog]

Insufficient force has me a little puzzled.

Insufficient force is basically a mechanism where the MRP/AFL can let players off at their discretion. It is completely at the whim of the MRP/AFL and the actual force is irrelevant. A player can be punched in the face, but if they don't react; if they just stand there and take the punch, then the MRP will say the punch was of insufficient force. But if the recipient falls to the ground and pretends to be hurt in order to win the free kick, then the aggressor will probably be suspended.

The guys on the Match Review Panel are f**kwits.

 

[THE EQUALIZER]

Insufficient force and attempted striking should both carry 50 demerit points that stay on your record for 3 years.

 

[Bulldocker]

Insufficient Force really comes down to the player on the receiving end. If they are "tough" and stay up then you might get this. But if you hit someone a bit softer (or who takes a dive) with the exact same force and they go to ground then you are in trouble.

To me it should all be about the intent of the act and not the outcome

Had Rischetelli not spilt blood from a very minor cut on his head and so having to leave the ground to be patched up....... well, the Fyfernator would still be eligible for the Brownlow because it is likely that the MRP f***wits would have probably taken very little interest in the bump. I'm tired of hearing that a player such as Fyfe should have "reasonably expected" head contact because he chose to bump instead of tackle - blah, blah, blah.

The whole system needs to be re-assessed with a very strong accent on INTENT.

No player should be rubbed out for incidental/accidental contact when playing in the spirit of the game - as it always was before washed up ex-players were invited to justify their title as MRP judge, jury and executioners!

 

[go_the_dockers]

It will be interesting to see where Gibbs elbow on Ballas falls. As he was falling on him, he intentional pointed his elbow into his back.

He should at least get some points on his records, but I think he should get 1 week for it. Was not necessary and if he had just falled on his back there would have been nothing in it.

Intentional, Low Force, Body Contact.

Also Crowley got hit off the ball, didn't see who got him but it will be interesting to see if a player is reported.

 

[ilikepotatoes]

It will be interesting to see where Gibbs elbow on Ballas falls. As he was falling on him, he intentional pointed his elbow into his back.

He should at least get some points on his records, but I think he should get 1 week for it. Was not necessary and if he had just falled on his back there would have been nothing in it.

Intentional, Low Force, Body Contact.

Also Crowley got hit off the ball, didn't see who got him but it will be interesting to see if a player is reported.

Marc Murphy.

 

[KissKiss]

It will be interesting to see where Gibbs elbow on Ballas falls. As he was falling on him, he intentional pointed his elbow into his back.

He should at least get some points on his records, but I think he should get 1 week for it. Was not necessary and if he had just falled on his back there would have been nothing in it.

Intentional, Low Force, Body Contact.

Also Crowley got hit off the ball, didn't see who got him but it will be interesting to see if a player is reported.

Marc Murphy.

Did Crowley go to ground after being hit? If not it will be ruled insufficient force. It doesnt matter how hard he was hit, that is the only measure that counts

 

[go_the_dockers]

Did Crowley go to ground after being hit? If not it will be ruled insufficient force. It doesnt matter how hard he was hit, that is the only measure that counts

There was video of Crowley hunch over for a good 20 seconds, and even when the trainers made it to him he was still trying to get his breath back.

Didn't see the actually incident, just saw the aftermath so will need the behind goals vision to show something.

 

[KissKiss]

There was video of Crowley hunch over for a good 20 seconds, and even when the trainers made it to him he was still trying to get his breath back.

Didn't see the actually incident, just saw the aftermath so will need the behind goals vision to show something.

Probably not enough then if he didn't go to ground

 

[go_the_dockers]

Probably not enough then if he didn't go to ground

I don't think the person Ballas hit went to ground. Depends on their mood I guess.