Intelligent Design or Evolution?

[Ben the Gooner]

oh is that all it is?

What on Earth is science doing trying to figure out this incredible thing we call the brain, then?

No wonder they haven't been able to work out a thing about this amazing thing after all this time. They just need to stop reading into anything and realise it is ........ as above bold.

That's crap mate. The Mayans (?) believed for a long time that the earth rested on the back of a turtle, but for emprical proof that they were wrong, we had to wait until we had the ability to see the earth from space.

As for the thread, it's bollocks.

ID and evolution aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. For all we know, we could have been designed as single-celled micro-organisms, designed to evolve as we have, and designed to keep on evolving. Scientifically, that is more likely than creation as we are now.

I attend a Catholic school, and am currently doing a subject on Science and God. The school isn't even trying to discredit evolution, or promote Genesis, or anything you'd expect a fairly conservative Catholic school to do. It is merely arguing that the two ideas are not polar opposites.

As for Intelligent Design as a scientific theory - scientific proof does not consist of perceived flaws in another theory.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

I agree wholeheartedly on the non-encroachment and think science should be free to go with stem cell research and the like. ID doesn't belong in government schools, simply because people go to school for education, not spirituality.

If ID was to be taught in schools it could be taught in social studies or the like. Have you heard of the Wedge Strategy?

 

[Karl Pilkington]

If ID was to be taught in schools it could be taught in social studies or the like. Have you heard of the Wedge Strategy?

Nope - what is it?

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Nope - what is it?

I admit that I have not read the whole document, but anyway. It is basically a document leaked by the Discovery Institute (a major ID proponent) that details the downfall of science's (materialism's) grip on humanity.

http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.pdf

 

[Mario the Lothario]

No. ID entails a designer who has a definite plan for life on earth whereas evolution, at least evolution by means of natural selection, has no final goal or end in sight. This, however, does not mean that it is random/directionless.

Well, that's your interpretation.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Well, that's your interpretation.

Okay, what is your interpretation? What is ID?

 

[Mario the Lothario]

I have already explained myself in earlier posts, couldn't be bothered doing it again.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

I have already explained myself in earlier posts, couldn't be bothered doing it again.

Fair enough.

 

[Richo83]

When the waters aren't muddied by religious and scientific dogma, isn't evolution, intelligent design anyway?

IMO, not really. Evolution implies that there is no inherent design or purpose behind creation, inlike ID which says that the world was designed by a designer. Evolution presents a directionless development of species which doesn't require a designer. Humans developed because of monkeys, not an ID. My opinion yes, but the whole notion of ID is it teaches intelligent design. I don't think the world was designed, nor is it intelligent, not its existence, nor some sort of higher being. That's my opnion of course but I don't see any design.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

IMO, not really. Evolution implies that there is no inherent design or purpose behind creation, inlike ID which says that the world was designed by a designer. Evolution presents a directionless development of species which doesn't require a designer. Humans developed because of monkeys, not an ID. My opinion yes, but the whole notion of ID is it teaches intelligent design. I don't think the world was designed, nor is it intelligent, not its existence, nor some sort of higher being. That's my opnion of course but I don't see any design.

I would say directionless only in the sense that there is no final goal. It is, however, directed by natural forces, but obviously not in the same conscious way as a designer.

 

[Richo83]

I would say directionless only in the sense that there is no final goal. It is, however, directed by natural forces, but obviously not in the same conscious way as a designer.

Agreed. This is the point Iilustrated to Mario, our environment shapes how animals develop or don't. It's a relationship, the environment and how species have to adapt to this.

I see no real sign of ID, animal development seems to meander with no real purpose, and humans are hardly at the forefront of creation. Fish have lasted longer than us which really questions the claim that since we exist in such a manner we're important and designed. We've come to the party at the last ten minutes of creation, what makes us think we're designed and the most important animals in the animal kingdom? ID people seem to rest on a notion that humanity must have a purpose, we must be designed. Wishful thinking IMO.

 

[H2F]

Anyone else licking their lips waiting for Chief's response?

C'mon Chief, give me some sugar ...

 

[Chief]

oh is that all it is?

What on Earth is science doing trying to figure out this incredible thing we call the brain, then?

No wonder they haven't been able to work out a thing about this amazing thing after all this time. They just need to stop reading into anything and realise it is ........ as above bold.

Oh come on!

There is a lot we know about the brain and a lot we don't. Scientists are always exploring and poking and prodding and testing.

You sound like you have absolutely no understanding - at all - of:

* Evolution.

* Neuroscience.

* Or even science in general.

From my own study, the idea of souls and divine voices came about because people had no idea that when they heard "voices in their head" it was actually their own thought process, and echoes of our two-sided and multi-lobed brain structure.

Had people known their own brain could talk to itself we'd be a lot less religion-focused today.

As for 'gaps' in evolutionary history, on a statistical level if the entire population of North America lived as animals their entire contribution to the fossil record would be about 50 bones. Not enough for a single skeleton. There are massive gaps.

Religionists and other loons will fill these gaps in with God and the divine based on no evidence but tricks of the mind, personal feelings and unreasonable credulity.

I still cannot believe that people dismiss entire branches of science - rigorously and endlessly probed and tested science - with statements like "but it feels like I have a soul".

I should be used to it by now but it still shocks me how many people celebrate and display their own ignorance as if it were a publicly bestowed medal of honour.

 

[placebo]

No worries, you hit the nail on the head when you said it shouldn't be a matter of Christianity (or any other Abrahamic religion) vs Darwinism, as it really just cheapens and narrows the debate.




I'm no physics professor but I'm pretty sure atoms can't be annihilated, and I've read that thing about the 21 grams theory, but I've also read it was discredited. Who knows what to believe!

What I do know, through personal experience, is that I have a soul.

Enlighten me on this personal experience?

 

[placebo]

Some of the points in favour of ID are irrefutable though, as they are based on belief and personal experiences (that is not to say they don't have logic or reason behind them).

Belief does not equal irrefutable points. Nor do personal experiences that offer no proof, that is called hearsay.

No points in favour of ID are irrefutable.

 

[Richo83]

For all those saying they know they have a soul because they "felt" it, there was a guy who lived about 2500 years ago named Buddha who had a thing or two to say about physchology and the philosophy of identity. His theory of emptiness or no-soul is something all you proponents should read.

 

[Rooface]

I'm no expert but i believe Jacque Fresco to be the most intelligent designer of modern times.

Jacque Fresco of Future by Design excellence.

He regards himself as a "Futurist". Very clever practical man whose influences/ideas on potential solutions for quality living have evolved from various sources best explained through his you tube videos and recent film.

The/A perfect example of ID.

In practice and explained from a very spiritual man.

 

[H2F]

Oh come on!

There is a lot we know about the brain and a lot we don't. Scientists are always exploring and poking and prodding and testing.

Yeah and in that time we have identified that our brain neurons can create voltage in the membranes (i fink) then apparently send out packets of information to other Neurons and then down through the nervous system to our body.

That's it.

Wowser. I know you already highlighted that we don't know a lot about the brain sure, but let's be honest here ...

We know sweet FA about it Chieftain. We have figured out the expansion of the Universe, the Big Bang, we are even finally working out Einsteins greatest dilemma Dark Matter and Dark Energy, but the only thing we know about the brain is............. drumroll.

That through electrical pulses in our Neurons we can store, retrieve and send a complex packet of instructions, or so we think.

You sound like you have absolutely no understanding - at all - of:

* Evolution.

I know as much as Darwin and that is that there appears to be a very attractive process that he calls evolution, which appears to explain the way life in it's basic form adapts, changes, and attempts to survive in the big bad nasty world.

But...

It does not seem to explain humans on it's own merits, like it appears to for the rest of the life we have seen around the traps. I've said this a number of times but why do humans have the capacity and desire to explore and master the Universe, and with a strong instinct that there is much more to it all. Dark Matter and Dark Energy are living proof that I have a point oh Grand One. Because it is a powerful sign that through the above spiritual drive we have (that evolution cannot explain) is starting to reep some rewards for us.

* Neuroscience.

I've read heaps about it, but there simply is only some interesting theory out there at best. What do you want to talk about??? I myself have spent most time reading and analysing theories and thoughts about why we dream. Love to chat to you about this if you want.

* Or even science in general.

Human Origins or Cosmology - give me your best shot Biology, Chemicals and the rest I know nothing ...

From my own study, the idea of souls and divine voices came about because people had no idea that when they heard "voices in their head" it was actually their own thought process, and echoes of our two-sided and multi-lobed brain structure

Had people known their own brain could talk to itself we'd be a lot less religion-focused today.

That's fair enough, you teach me a great deal in a lot of your posts, but like I said before I am more fascinated in why we dream. Part of this comes from my belief that consciousness to me appears to be so complex that looking at something like sleeping could possibly be a way to even start theorising about the problem. For example waking up and then having a new thought that wasn't there when you went to sleep appears to be part of the consciousness we are all describing. I won't bang on about it now but sleep, sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, to me is a good starting point in explaining consciousness. Only then can we even begin to start (scientifically) looking towards things like the soul. Your explanation might be right but it would be a major let down for me, mainly because it doesn't seem to fit with my thoughts about it.

CAs for 'gaps' in evolutionary history, on a statistical level if the entire population of North America lived as animals their entire contribution to the fossil record would be about 50 bones. Not enough for a single skeleton. There are massive gaps.

I know, but we have enough evidence to show that 'civilisation explosion' and in all it's magnificence, does not fit with the linear model from Apes. You also cannot intelligently dismiss the fact that this 'civilisation explosion' appeared at the end of a time where we were apparently waring with Neanderthals over a herd of Mammoths. circa 10,000BC - 30,000BC

Religionists and other loons will fill these gaps in with God and the divine based on no evidence but tricks of the mind, personal feelings and unreasonable credulity.

There was a bang.... You agree with that. But you don't agree any Intelligent life existed before this bang??? Perplexing thought process to me.

I still cannot believe that people dismiss entire branches of science - rigorously and endlessly probed and tested science - with statements like "but it feels like I have a soul".

I don't dismiss any branch of science. No way. I just acknowledge where we are with science and theorise about the gaps just like everyone else does.

I should be used to it by now but it still shocks me how many people celebrate and display their own ignorance as if it were a publicly bestowed medal of honour.

Me too

 

[Schism]

How is dark energy and dark matter,if they exist,a dilemma for Einsteinian physics?

They are only theory at this point anyway,and theory stemming from the fact we have nfi how gravity works,or even what it is.

 

[H2F]

How is dark energy and dark matter,if they exist,a dilemma for Einsteinian physics?

They are only theory at this point anyway,and theory stemming from the fact we have nfi how gravity works,or even what it is.

Which is exactly what my hero Einstein went to his grave trying to figure out ... Therefore through Dark Matter and Dark Energy we are finally embracing the smartest man of all time's greatest dilemma ...

 

[Schism]

Which is exactly what my hero Einstein went to his grave trying to figure out ... Therefore through Dark Matter and Dark Energy we are finally embracing the smartest man of all time's greatest dilemma ...

If they exist....

 

[H2F]

If they exist....

They exist. Whenever we get to a point scientifically when something has to be right, it actually is from that point on. Learning about it and proving it is just the boring part, except of course in the times of people capable of doing it. i.e my homies Galileo, Newton and Einstein.

 

[Schism]

They exist. Whenever we get to a point scientifically when something has to be right, it actually is from that point on. Learning about it and proving it is just the boring part, except of course in the times of people capable of doing it. i.e my homies Galileo, Newton and Einstein.

Man,you said you were a scientist That paragraph above is anathema to any scientist i'm sure.

 

[H2F]

Man,you said you were a scientist That paragraph above is anathema to any scientist i'm sure.

You watch Chief grab that one for his smackdown on me. Gee thanks bro

 

[Schism]

You watch Chief grab that one for his smackdown on me. Gee thanks bro

If you really want a smackdown,you know,if that's your thing,start pontificating like a real hardcore creationist about how entropy=disorder,then watch and enjoy the epic smackdown that comes your way,assuming someone steps up to the plate