Intelligent Design or Evolution?

[Chief]

Yeah and in that time we have identified that our brain neurons can create voltage in the membranes (i fink) then apparently send out packets of information to other Neurons and then down through the nervous system to our body.

That's it.

Wowser. I know you already highlighted that we don't know a lot about the brain sure, but let's be honest here ...

We know sweet FA about it Chieftain. We have figured out the expansion of the Universe, the Big Bang, we are even finally working out Einsteins greatest dilemma Dark Matter and Dark Energy, but the only thing we know about the brain is............. drumroll.

That through electrical pulses in our Neurons we can store, retrieve and send a complex packet of instructions, or so we think.

A vast oversimplification of what we know about the human brain. You're attempting to widen the gaps, the better to fit your divine explanations.

The physical cells in the brain also interact with the other chemical systems in the body. There are multiple angles of attack on finding out what the brain does and how it does it.

There may even be information storage at the muscular level. Our whole body may be capable of storing information, with brain cells being just the most evolved at this task - evolved to the point of efficient abstract thought. Some unexplained feelings may even be communication between brain and non-brain information storage.

In any case, postulating a very specific "why" in relation to the physical properties of the universe is a huge, huge leap. And you've just said we don't know anything about the brain. Do you see the huge gap in your reasoning yet?

I know as much as Darwin and that is that there appears to be a very attractive process that he calls evolution, which appears to explain the way life in it's basic form adapts, changes, and attempts to survive in the big bad nasty world.

But...

It does not seem to explain humans on it's own merits, like it appears to for the rest of the life we have seen around the traps. I've said this a number of times but why do humans have the capacity and desire to explore and master the Universe, and with a strong instinct that there is much more to it all. Dark Matter and Dark Energy are living proof that I have a point oh Grand One. Because it is a powerful sign that through the above spiritual drive we have (that evolution cannot explain) is starting to reep some rewards for us.

This does not even make sense! You're running the entire gamut of logical fallacies here - begging the question for one.

spiritual drive we have (that evolution cannot explain)

The theory of evolution CAN explain it. We explore and search like just about any animal alive. We're just better at abstract thought, partly through a large brain to body mass ratio.

It has been said that if there were a species half way between ape and human alive today we'd have a hugely different perspective on what is "human" and what is "animal".

I've read heaps about it, but there simply is only some interesting theory out there at best. What do you want to talk about??? I myself have spent most time reading and analysing theories and thoughts about why we dream. Love to chat to you about this if you want.

Most time? Compared to what? Compared to who? This is your main area of 'study'? Dream analysis?

Human Origins or Cosmology - give me your best shot Biology, Chemicals and the rest I know nothing ...

You don't even think biology covers the area of "human origins"? Chemistry?

That's fair enough, you teach me a great deal in a lot of your posts, but like I said before I am more fascinated in why we dream. Part of this comes from my belief that consciousness to me appears to be so complex that looking at something like sleeping could possibly be a way to even start theorising about the problem. For example waking up and then having a new thought that wasn't there when you went to sleep appears to be part of the consciousness we are all describing. I won't bang on about it now but sleep, sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, to me is a good starting point in explaining consciousness. Only then can we even begin to start (scientifically) looking towards things like the soul. Your explanation might be right but it would be a major let down for me, mainly because it doesn't seem to fit with my thoughts about it.

I am so very very glad you have accepted your own emotional attachment to certain ideas. No idea why that would make me glad - one less bozo walking around completely ignorant of his own ignorance I suppose. And I mean that in a good way.

I know, but we have enough evidence to show that 'civilisation explosion' and in all it's magnificence, does not fit with the linear model from Apes. You also cannot intelligently dismiss the fact that this 'civilisation explosion' appeared at the end of a time where we were apparently waring with Neanderthals over a herd of Mammoths. circa 10,000BC - 30,000BC

The model goes from a tube worm in the Cambrian period to just about everything living animal you see around you. If by 'linear' you mean steady and unfaltering progression at a set rate towards perfection, well of course that is not the model. It hasn't been since about fifty years before Gould put pen to paper.

There was a bang.... You agree with that. But you don't agree any Intelligent life existed before this bang??? Perplexing thought process to me.

When talking about the Big Bang there isn't a "before" as we experience it. Anything could have happened, but creating a specific intelligent being out of your own imagination and accepting that model before exhausting more reliable methods is not the way to get closer to finding out.

I don't dismiss any branch of science. No way. I just acknowledge where we are with science and theorise about the gaps just like everyone else does.

You have admitted you don't even know where the gaps in knowledge are. Your own words show that. Yet you deride explanations that don't include divinity in these gaps. This is the source of my frustration.

In fact take that last paragraph as an answer to any ID apologist out there. It is 1:30 AM and I'm outta here.

 

[bit_pattern]

Nevertheless, amazingly, the resounding vote worldwide is for cheese.The only argument is which flavour.

Sad but true...

PRINCETON, NJ -- On the eve of the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth, a new Gallup Poll shows that only 39% of Americans say they "believe in the theory of evolution," while a quarter say they do not believe in the theory, and another 36% don't have an opinion either way. These attitudes are strongly related to education and, to an even greater degree, religiosity.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/Darwin-Birthday-Believe-Evolution.aspx

 

[___ccroo___]

The/A perfect example of ID.

In practice and explained from a very spiritual man.

Jacque Fresco is the man.

When you look at evolution, recently, Haile Selassie's bloodline fills in a lot of gaps when looking at the past. Dont have to be religious or even follow (a religion) to recognize that fact.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

H2F, I think your are underestimating our understanding of the human brain. I agree that it is incredibly difficult to come to grips with and is probably more difficult to comprehend than the universe itself, however I fail to see how this is an indictment on science (an by extension evolution).

 

[Karl Pilkington]

I still cannot believe that people dismiss entire branches of science - rigorously and endlessly probed and tested science - with statements like "but it feels like I have a soul".

If you're referring to me, I believe my exact words were 'I am certian I have a soul" and I am. But I don't use it to deny scientific evidence. neither evolution of ID can fully explain existence or the human condition.

God is dead in the sense he is no longer considered a universal truth to most.

But a growing number of people are attempting to replace god with science, because they need an underlying truth to believe in. Blindly following science above everything else is no different than being a Christian fundamentalist imo.

I should be used to it by now but it still shocks me how many people celebrate and display their own ignorance as if it were a publicly bestowed medal of honour.

Its scientific fact that we are immortal, at least the parts our bodies are made up of are. Is it such a big leap to believe that our perception/consciousness might be as well?

Do you think science can explain everything in the universe, the way god used to?

 

[Karl Pilkington]

H2F, I think your are underestimating our understanding of the human brain. I agree that it is incredibly difficult to come to grips with and is probably more difficult to comprehend than the universe itself, however I fail to see how this is an indictment on science (an by extension evolution).

Forget the brain, our understanding of the mind is truly miniscule.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Forget the brain, our understanding of the mind is truly miniscule.

Agree, however discovering the neural correlates of consciousness will go a long way to helping us understand the mind. Is this going to lead to a debate over dualism?

 

[Niximus]

But a growing number of people are attempting to replace god with science, because they need an underlying truth to believe in. Blindly following science above everything else is no different than being a Christian fundamentalist imo.

Curiuous to how you can blindly follow science? Science is all about evidence and experiment. If you've learned the theory of how a steam engine works and you accept it are you blindly following science or have you looked at the evidence and accepted it?

Its scientific fact that we are immortal, at least the parts our bodies are made up of are. Is it such a big leap to believe that our perception/consciousness might be as well?

That's an extremely big leap. The atoms that make up the compute you're using will last but when they are scattered amongst stars and space is it reasonable to propose that your word documents still exist?

Do you think science can explain everything in the universe,

What you're asking is "Are there a set of laws or mathematical principles that govern the interaction of everything in the universe. Yes, will we ever have the means to discover them all, possible.

the way god used to?

No, it won't use magic.

 

[Thrust]

So you're claiming that the total sum of atoms that make us up are never lost or multiplied, they are merely transformed?

It looks like Karl might be closer to the truth than anyone else, perhaps we are immortal?

haha, atoms aren't living creatures they don't multiply. This is high school level science. I'm of the belief that there is no soul... If there is a god it has no interest in our daily lives and there is no afterlife.

 

[Niximus]

haha, atoms aren't living creatures they don't multiply. This is high school level science. I'm of the belief that there is no soul... If there is a god it has no interest in our daily lives and there is no afterlife.

It is barely that, a year 8 phys/chem student knows this stuff.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

Curiuous to how you can blindly follow science? Science is all about evidence and experiment. If you've learned the theory of how a steam engine works and you accept it are you blindly following science or have you looked at the evidence and accepted it?

Back in the 1600's they believed that the laws of god were irrefutable, and they had entire schools devoted to using god/theology to explain every day things.

It isn't crazy to tihnk that perhaps down the track, many scientific principles we hold true will be shown to be misplaced or outright false, just as the prior justifications were in relation to god.

That's an extremely big leap. The atoms that make up the compute you're using will last but when they are scattered amongst stars and space is it reasonable to propose that your word documents still exist?

Good analogy in some ways, but word documents technically don't exist once the computer is turned off or on stand-by, whereas the consciousness remains even whilst we're comatose or asleep.

What you're asking is "Are there a set of laws or mathematical principles that govern the interaction of everything in the universe. Yes, will we ever have the means to discover them all, possible.

What I am saying is that until these principles are discovered, it is stupid to put all of your eggs in the science basket.

No, it won't use magic.

It wasn't defined as magic back then either though.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

haha, atoms aren't living creatures they don't multiply. This is high school level science. I'm of the belief that there is no soul... If there is a god it has no interest in our daily lives and there is no afterlife.

It is barely that, a year 8 phys/chem student knows this stuff.

You have both missed the point.

Surprise factor? Zero.

Good luck with the Christians.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

haha, atoms aren't living creatures they don't multiply. This is high school level science. I'm of the belief that there is no soul... If there is a god it has no interest in our daily lives and there is no afterlife.

Mario wasn't actually claiming that they multiply, he was just confirming that you were saying the same thing.

 

[skilts]

If you're referring to me, I believe my exact words were 'I am certian I have a soul" and I am.

This thing you repeatedly insist exists, 'soul', what is its locus? Is it within each and every body? If so, where does the soul end and the body begin? Can a body have a soul without knowing of the soul's existence? If the body doesn't know of the soul's existence does that mean the soul is not?

Or is the soul located elsewhere? Please specify.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

This thing you repeatedly insist exists, 'soul', what is its locus? Is it within each and every body? If so, where does the soul end and the body begin? Can a body have a soul without knowing of the soul's existence? If the body doesn't know of the soul's existence does that mean the soul is not?

Or is the soul located elsewhere? Please specify.

.........Just as Mario is reaching for the cyanide pill, the mighty skilts shows up and makes the conversation interesting again....................

 

[asanque]

Sad but true...

That's such a sad indictment on the US and their education system.

Shows just how much damage religion can do even in this day and age.

Here's hoping that humanity eventually evolves past this stupid stage.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

This thing you repeatedly insist exists, 'soul', what is its locus? Is it within each and every body? If so, where does the soul end and the body begin? Can a body have a soul without knowing of the soul's existence? If the body doesn't know of the soul's existence does that mean the soul is not?

Or is the soul located elsewhere? Please specify.

It is not a physical construct, but it feels to me like it's in the middle of my brain. Perhaps the pineal gland has something to do with it, I'm not sure.

The body and the soul are seperate, and the body lives on as atoms, after what we call 'death' - I am unsure where the soul goes, but I don't imagine it just disappears.

I'm sure all people are born with souls. I'm not sure if everyone has access to their soul though. It might be that it lays dormant within some people.

 

[likka]

I'm sure all people are born with souls.

What rubbish, you may believe this to be true, but stating this opinion an absolute statement of fact is ridiculous.

There is no evidence whatsoever that points to the existence of a soul.

We are a single species of mammal in plague proportions, whose global dominance is to do with the capabilities of our large and highly evolved brains.

It staggers me in this day and age that people can question the validity of evolution.

 

[Niximus]

Back in the 1600's they believed that the laws of god were irrefutable, and they had entire schools devoted to using god/theology to explain every day things.

It isn't crazy to tihnk that perhaps down the track, many scientific principles we hold true will be shown to be misplaced or outright false, just as the prior justifications were in relation to god.

Hang on, you were claiming people blindly following science as with religion.

Yes some scientific understanding may change through time to incorporate new evidence (only very rarely are things completely disregarded) but this doesn't equate to anything similar to blind faith.

Science provides us with the most likely explanation based on the available evidence.

I'm positive our understanding of gravity will change significantly but our current understanding is still correct, just incomplete.

Good analogy in some ways, but word documents technically don't exist once the computer is turned off or on stand-by, whereas the consciousness remains even whilst we're comatose or asleep.

Incorrect, the binary data that composes your word document exists physically on the hard drive even when it is disconnected from the computer.

That said a person who is not conscious or is asleep is not analogous to a computer that is switched off, more to one in standby.

What I am saying is that until these principles are discovered, it is stupid to put all of your eggs in the science basket.

Again I'm asking how is anyone doing this? No one is out there "Go #1 Team Science"

Everyone uses a form of scientific method. If I told you I could fly by flapping my arms no doubt you would be sceptical, you wouldn't believe me. If I had photos, video or eye witnesses you would probably debate with me as to their validity, I could have easily photoshopped them. But if I showed you I could do it, it would no doubt change your mind. You just needed the evidence.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

What rubbish, you may believe this to be true, but stating this opinion an absolute statement of fact is ridiculous.

There is no evidence whatsoever that points to the existence of a soul.

There is plenty of evidence to point to it, I can tell you first hand that I have experienced it.

This same argument is used to justify gravity, by the way. Nobody has ever observed gravity, yet because we can feel its effects we know it to exist.

We are a single species of mammal in plague proportions, whose global dominance is to do with the capabilities of our large and highly evolved brains.

It staggers me in this day and age that people can question the validity of evolution.

I have never questioned the validity of evolution. Please try and read the entire thread.

 

[likka]

There is plenty of evidence to point to it, I can tell you first hand that I have experienced it.

This same argument is used to justify gravity, by the way. Nobody has ever observed gravity, yet because we can feel its effects we know it to exist.

What a ridiculous analogy. The effects of gravity are observed, proven through rigorous experimentation and mathematically formulated.

You have internally felt an emotion and consciously associated to a concept you like to label "a soul", and we are supposed to treat this as some sort of proof. Please.

Using your analogy Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy all exist because if I can feel them. Hell, I feel happy today so using your rationale it must also be a permanent, immortal part of my being.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

What a ridiculous analogy. The effects of gravity are observed, proven through rigorous experimentation and mathematically formulated.

You have internally felt an emotion and consciously associated to a concept you like to label "a soul", and we are supposed to treat this as some sort of proof. Please.

Using your analogy Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy all exist because I can feel them. Hell, I feel happy today so using your rationale it must also be a permanent, immortal part of my being.

likka, do you love your mother?

 

[Richo83]

There is plenty of evidence to point to it, I can tell you first hand that I have experienced it.

This same argument is used to justify gravity, by the way. Nobody has ever observed gravity, yet because we can feel its effects we know it to exist.

I have never questioned the validity of evolution. Please try and read the entire thread.

Physics has documented the effects of gravity for some time now. As for the soul bit, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunyata.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

What a ridiculous analogy. The effects of gravity are observed, proven through rigorous experimentation and mathematically formulated.

You have internally felt an emotion and consciously associated to a concept you like to label "a soul", and we are supposed to treat this as some sort of proof. Please.

I am far from the only person who has experienced it though.

People experienced the effects of gravity long before there was an observable explanation for it.

 

[likka]

likka, do you love your mother?