Intelligent Design or Evolution?

[Chief]

I am only stating my perception of it as fact or real, not as a scientific fact.

So you agree: there is no evidence you have a soul. You just believe you have one.

Any description of this as "evidence" or "fact" or "know" is just a use of your own internal, non-standard, completely fabricated lexicon which happens to use words that exist in the English language.

Why not say "I frooble I have a soul" and avoid the confusion?

This feeling is anythingbut random, I have to concentrate very hard to access this feeling. It isn't an emotion though, it is more of an awareness.

"It isn't an ebulstan though, it is more of an okstinglay."

 

[Richo83]

I think you might be on to something there.

That's not neccesarily true, some have linked the self to thought, beilef, action etc. If we are devoid of action (dead) after death, than it could suggest a death of the self too.

 

[likka]

Well, existence itself is only perception. Even scientific facts are only facts because of the way we percieve the measures we use to define them.

Perception doesn't always prove existence... for example mental illness, and The Matrix ()

Scientifically, in this thread, we have established that the atoms that make up the body are eternal, right? And if those atoms are responsible for the 'soul' or consciousness, then that would mean that consciousness must also be eternal, evne if it is broken up or ceases to function in the way we are aware of it right now, no?

Buildings are made up of bricks, steel, timber, mortar, bolts, screws, etc. If these are disassembled, does the building still exist?

Computers are made up of various components, would it still be able to process information if I disassembled it?

 

[Mario the Lothario]

T
If we are devoid of action (dead) after death,

If? You don't have a concrete opinion on that matter?

than it could suggest a death of the self too.

Possibly. I have already entertained the notion that the ego is destroyed upon what we refer to as death.

 

[Chief]

Scientifically, in this thread, we have established that the atoms that make up the body are eternal, right? And if those atoms are responsible for the 'soul' or consciousness, then that would mean that consciousness must also be eternal, evne if it is broken up or ceases to function in the way we are aware of it right now, no?

No. The brain is not just the individual atoms shoved in a box. It is the specific layout of the 100 billion or so neurons and the 10,000 or so connections of each, plus the various systems in the body which support and affect it.

Just face it. You are mortal. You will die one day.

 

[likka]

I don't believe you, prove it?

You have the answers, I need to read them.

Set up an experiment and observe my behavior then. That should provide the proof you are after, either way.

 

[sherrinorburley]

Perception doesn't always prove existence... for example mental illness and



Buildings are made up of bricks, steel, timber, mortar, bolts, screws, etc. If these are disassembled, does the building still exist?

Computers are made up of various components, would it still be able to process information if I disassembled it?

James Brown is dead. No question.
Yet i can hear and feel him through my headphones from my stereo/ipod.
Until i pull the plug. The feeling was there only because of electricity, jeez i love technology.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

Set up an experiment and observe my behavior then. That should provide the proof you are after, either way.

Why would I set up any experiment? I'm not the one that needs to refer to imperial data to satisfy a philosophical conundrum.

 

[likka]

James Brown is dead. No question.
Yet i can hear and feel him through my headphones from my stereo/ipod.
Until i pull the plug. The feeling was there only because of electricity, jeez i love technology.

So the soul is really an iPod... that Steve Jobs really is an intelligent designer.

 

[likka]

Why would I set up any experiment? I'm not the one that needs to refer to imperial data to satisfy a philosophical conundrum.

Nah, you'd rather leave proof of existence of a soul up to people's feeling and how the interpret internal emotions.

Give it away champ, you are making a fool of yourself with these ridiculous and unrelated analogies.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

The soul, if there is such a thing, which I doubt, would evidently be the product of the functioning of the brain. When you die, although the material basis of the brain remains, it cannot function and thus the soul would not persist (if it existed in the first place).

 

[sherrinorburley]

So the soul is really an iPod... that Steve Jobs really is an intelligent designer.

Amen to that brother....but only if JB channeled.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

The soul, if there is such a thing, which I doubt, would evidently be the product of the functioning of the brain. When you die, although the material basis of the brain remains, it cannot function and thus the soul would not persist (if it existed in the first place).

Consciousness is a direct result of complexity?

 

[likka]

Consciousness is a direct result of complexity?

More a direct result of being alive, with a functioning brain.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

Nah, you'd rather leave proof of existence of a soul up to people's feeling and how the interpret internal emotions.

I can either consider them liars, or not.

You sure as hell haven't given me anything to go with!

Tell me, how many "soul believers" have you managed to dissuade with your magnificent argument?

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Consciousness is a direct result of complexity?

In a way. Consciousness is the result of distributed neural activity, which is highly integrated. The process of reentry is critical to consciousness.

edit: this applies more specifically to human consciousness.

Meet the founder of ID.

Freak!

 

[Mario the Lothario]

In a way. Consciousness is the result of distributed neural activity, which is highly integrated. The process of reentry is critical to consciousness.

Meet the founder of ID.

Freak!

Consciousness requires a brain?

 

[Richo83]

If? You don't have a concrete opinion on that matter?

I do, I don't believe in the afterlife but I'm not going to prance around like it's fact. I don't believe in the heaven/hell duality though at all.

Possibly. I have already entertained the notion that the ego is destroyed upon what we refer to as death.

It's a good idea. If any idea of self is to believed IMO it's the notion of psyche, a mind/brain split. Once the mind has no brain, no physcial basis of it's thoughts the psyche goes as well. It is more common with consciousness, and I think it's closer to a greek idea of self, the self is more thought, awareness, opinion than feelings and emotions. It has implications though, if so then a brain dead person is in effect in some ways, selfless.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Consciousness requires a brain?

I would argue it requires significant encephalisation. At a minimum consciousness requires the ability to interact with the world.

 

[Richo83]

Consciousness requires a brain?

I think so. The brain is all source of thought, feeling and emotion, even materialists believe that. It was quite a prevalent belief with the greeks that consciousness rested in the brain, in effect, the mind/brain seperation. If one's brain is destroyed (as in brain dead) we can't feel, think, display emotion, all the displays of consciousness. It's why we pull the plug on brain dead people, because we feel that their faculties of living (consciousness) are finished.

 

[likka]

Tell me, how many "soul believers" have you managed to dissuade with your magnificent argument?

Couldn't care less what people believe in, as long as they don't make it a statement of fact.

Creationism is something you cannot dissuade people from believing... are you going to tell us you are a creationist nutter too?

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Couldn't care less what people believe in, as long as they don't make it a statement of fact.

Creationism is something you cannot dissuade people from believing... are you going to tell us you are a creationist nutter too?

ID has evolved D) from creationism. ID developed as a means of surreptitiously introducing creationism into school science classes.

 

[sherrinorburley]

James Brown is/was a Soul Man. I'm happy with that fact.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

At a minimum consciousness requires the ability to interact with the world.

"encephalisation" as in brain mass in direct relation to body mass?

If so, what is the cut off ratio?

At a minimum consciousness requires the ability to interact with the world.

A level of subjectiveness or, dare I say it, self awareness?

 

[Richo83]

"encephalisation" as in brain mass in direct relation to body mass?

If so, what is the cut off ratio?


A level of subjectiveness or, dare I say it, self awareness?

That's right. In effect all the things in which we rate as the embodiement of humanity, thought, emotion, intelligence, feelings, resides within the brain. A brain dead person IMO would lack self-awareness, or consciousness.