Europe Ireland

[Johnny Bananas]

You can't blame it all on the British

Yes I can. They deindustrialised India and worsened famines there too, most notably in Bengal.

or the famine.

I didn't solely blame the famine.

The chart shows a tripling of the Irish population between 1740 and 1840. Was that due to the introduction of the potato as the main foodstock? If so, it left them very vulnerable to any problems such as the blight.

A lot of places increased their population in that period.

The famine ended around 1850 but the population continued to decline for another hundred years, mainly due to migration.

Yes, I suggest you read the OP again.

For example, Ireland had a cotton industry but the American Civil War (1861-1865) stopped all cotton exports to Europe. Many of the Irish made out of work moved to England as there were better employment prospects and greater charitable welfare programs.

Odd how the cotton mills of Manchester weren't killed off by the American Civil War. The cotton simply came in from India and Egypt instead. Could it be that the British prioritised mills in Britain over those in Ireland?

 

[Royce Hafey]

There is debate about whether Ireland was connected by land to mainland Britain in the last 20,000 years. It could be that they were only connected by an ice sheet and human population came later by sea.

I can't say I feel emotionally connected to my ancient ancestors that might have taken this journey. You are looking at over 300 generations with different influences. It's meaningless to identify with one unknown tiny part of that.

I was talking to an Irish guy one time and I casually mentioned "the British Isles" and he got all huffy. I didn't realise at the time it was a controversial term for some. Looking into it more is a can of worms. It is mostly used as a geographic grouping of islands going as far back as Ptolemy. But it has also been taken as an offensive political term implying British rule over Ireland.

20,000 years ago Ireland and Britain were both uninhabited as they were almost completely covered in glaciers. You could have walked to Ireland across the ice, but there would only have been more ice when you got there.

 

[Frank Bunn]

20,000 years ago Ireland and Britain were both uninhabited as they were almost completely covered in glaciers. You could have walked to Ireland across the ice, but there would only have been more ice when you got there.

Walking across ice to more ice would not be productive. But the ice would have receded in the south first in both islands. There could have been migrations across the water between habitable areas. Then at some point there may have been a land bridge in the north that facilitated more migration.

 

[O Grobbecker]

Ignorant tosh. The Irish death rate was on a par with Europe and the Brits sent a substantial amount of both govt and private aid (including a campaign by the Times and donation from Queen Victoria).

As for why the population decline the biggest reason was poverty. Ireland was a very poor country long after the Brits gave them independence.

“…long after the Brits gave them independence.” An armed uprising followed by a guerilla war which lasted 2 1/2 years and a peace treaty between Great Britain and the then called Irish Free State. Following the Famine, with the decline in the numbers of subsistence tenant farmers, agricultural re arrangement changed to larger farms, akin to the Scottish clearances. Overwhelmingly owned by Anglo-Irish absentee landlords, small tenant farmers were removed by force and their simple homes demolished. Most emigrated. Private aid from Britain was iminimal, the real disgrace was the export of grain from Ireland, the silos were guarded by the military. Partisanship abounds in accounts of the famine but accounts say that there was sufficient grain available to at least feed the mil who died of starvation.

 

[O Grobbecker]

China also didn't really industrialize until after independence. Didn't stop their population growth!

Industrialisation diminishes population growth. Late industrialisation, the one child policy and delayed age of first births have given China a generational demographic dearth that a halving of its population before the end of the century is predicted.

 

[O Grobbecker]

In a broader historical sense i mean- very few if any countries have punched above their weight and achieved more than Britain. Where as Ireland has bumbled between economic disaster and intra island conflict, its largest achievement arguably being its waves of mass emigration as people have sought to flee it.

A large part of modern Irish identity seems to revolve around disliking Britain- cant be healthy for the national psyche.

Ireland lacks minerals and sources of energy. It’s assets are agriculture, tourism and being a tax haven. Post 1973, it has become an enthusiastic Member of the UN. Multi nationals have headquarters there because of its low tax regime, educated workforce, English language and as an easy entry into the European. Old resentments of Britain are fast fading.

 

[CrazyJoeFevola]

Ireland has never had a left wing government. They will after the next election when Sinn Fein dominates the vote. Polling suggests they could get enough seats for a majority. Either that or governing with other small left parties or independents. Going to be interesting.

 

[O Grobbecker]

Ireland has never had a left wing government. They will after the next election when Sinn Fein dominates the vote. Polling suggests they could get enough seats for a majority. Either that or governing with other small left parties or independents. Going to be interesting.

Sinn Fein came from nowhere in '20-'21; 10 - 20 new seats (TDs), 21 (of 160) independents of various political hues, a coalition of arch rivals Fine Gael and Fianna Fail and only half way through the Term. You're brave, perhaps knowledgeable, to predict so confidently such a dramatic result. It'll be a pity if you are right, there's something romantic about political affiliation being determined by for which side in the Civil War your grandfather fought.

 

[CrazyJoeFevola]

Sinn Fein came from nowhere in '20-'21; 10 - 20 new seats (TDs), 21 (of 160) independents of various political hues, a coalition of arch rivals Fine Gael and Fianna Fail and only half way through the Term. You're brave, perhaps knowledgeable, to predict so confidently such a dramatic result. It'll be a pity if you are right, there's something romantic about political affiliation being determined by for which side in the Civil War your grandfather fought.

They’ve gone from 24 percent, marginally topping the polls at the last election to 43 and rising in every opinion poll. People finally have a left alternative and are taking it

 

[O Grobbecker]

They’ve gone from 24 percent, marginally topping the polls at the last election to 43 and rising in every opinion poll. People finally have a left alternative and are taking it

I hadn't realised that. I understood that the Sinn Fein vote was highest among the young and the recent election result in the North the same. Idealism among those who haven't lived through the nasty side ? It's encouraging for those who would like to see a United Ireland but not by force of arms.

 

[CrazyJoeFevola]

I hadn't realised that. I understood that the Sinn Fein vote was highest among the young and the recent election result in the North the same. Idealism among those who haven't lived through the nasty side ? It's encouraging for those who would like to see a United Ireland but not by force of arms.

It's been more driven by their economic policies than anything to do with United Ireland. Massive housing crisis, cost of living, people are ready for a left government. Support for a United Ireland has always been a given for the vast, vast majority in the Republic. I also think there is a general recognition that the IRA is gone and Sinn Fein is it's own thing now. The mechanism that will eventually allow for a UI, the Good Friday Agreement wouldn't exist if not for the IRA campaign in my opinion but that's a separate discussion.

 

[O Grobbecker]

It's been more driven by their economic policies than anything to do with United Ireland. Massive housing crisis, cost of living, people are ready for a left government. Support for a United Ireland has always been a given for the vast, vast majority in the Republic. I also think there is a general recognition that the IRA is gone and Sinn Fein is it's own thing now. The mechanism that will eventually allow for a UI, the Good Friday Agreement wouldn't exist if not for the IRA campaign in my opinion but that's a separate discussion.

I’m aware of 3 polls on reunification taken in the Republic

(a) 2015. RTE/BBC commissioned Poll. If taxes decreased, 73 % for 8 against. If taxes increased 31 % for 44 % against

(b) 2019. RTE Exit poll 65 % for 19 against

(c) 2021. MRBI Poll published in the Irish Times December last year 62 % for 16 % against .

A 2019 MRBI/King’s College, London Poll on the mainland found 19 % in favour, 36 % against and the rest indifferent.

The electorate generally, young voters and Sinn Fein all show admirable pragmatism.