Roast Irritating things.

[nut]

Pods IMO was a relative short term replacement for Mooney , who had experience albeit at VFL level ,to compliment a Geelong side which already had a quality core group with that 100 games of experience ?

I wasn't having a go at your post.... just making the point that at some point we cant continue to "wait" for some players to come good.

I think thats why we took Miller as a insurance policy for Griffiths......

Tuck on the other hand has been replaced by younger more talented players that need more exposure to improve.

 

[rammbo]

From where I sit and in terms of development, I think a few posters here are under the misapprehension that only players aged 18-22 need to be developed. As someone, who in his profession , manages people daily, you need to continually develop ALL your staff, aged 18, 20, 22, 30, 47 or 50 and beyond. I’m sure Hardwick takes the same view. While many think playing Miller is holding back the development of Griffiths and Post in particular, Miller is equally entitled to be continually developed and worked on. Ditto for Tuck. You have to continually develop and reinvent your list and at the moment Miller best fits our structure. Post hasn’t grabbed his chance or put his hand up in emphatic fashion, while Griff is simply not ready and I for one am worried if he’ll ever get the body right!

Miller needs to b given time at least rest of season in the 1s so he can develop his marking kicking and handballing so he can couple that with his elite structuring capabilities.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

I wasn't having a go at your post.... just making the point that at some point we cant continue to "wait" for some players to come good.

I think thats why we took Miller as a insurance policy for Griffiths......

Tuck on the other hand has been replaced by younger more talented players that need more exposure to improve.

Didn't take it that way Nut , I just think that although great to recruit someone like Miller when in a position like ours , developing , they are most likely recruited to assist a side which will achieve goals beyond there time at the club ?
Miller recruited to help us develop into a premiership side , Pods recruited to maintain Geeling as a premiership side , incidentally I think the Pods recruitment may have also been on the back of realizing that although big Hawkins may be limited ?

 

[nut]

What really amazes me at the moment is our lack of experience in the middle. Most centre bounces we have Cotch(21),Martin(19),Jackson(25) and Browne(21), yet we are winning enough of the ball in the middle to remain competitive.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

What really amazes me at the moment is our lack of experience in the middle. Most centre bounces we have Cotch(21),Martin(19),Jackson(25) and Browne(21), yet we are winning enough of the ball in the middle to remain competitive.

IMO there real difference is when two or more of those aren't inside the sqauare and it leaves Foley and someone else who is a little off the pace . I'd like to see Newman used more within the square ?

 

[Bazzar]

I wasn't having a go at your post.... just making the point that at some point we cant continue to "wait" for some players to come good.

I think thats why we took Miller as a insurance policy for Griffiths......

Tuck on the other hand has been replaced by younger more talented players that need more exposure to improve.

Good points. And the Cats made the correct choice and now have Vardy on the rise. He will take the comp by storm in a fer years.

 

[Livonski]

If we make finals we will probably be belted. I can live with that. We haven't been finals in 10 years! To even think about tanking for 9th is depressing.

I'd love to shake the 9thmond tag before I die if that's possible.....

Why does seem to be consensus that we'll get belted if we make it to an elim final? Our opponents, whoever they are, will be sh1tting themselves, playing the Tiges. We'll come screaming over the top of them. when the game opens up half way through the 3rd qtr.

BTW I'm a relatively recent convert so don't carry the same baggage as most you appear to.

 

[Livonski]

It's about sitting on the fence....

Dimma/the club ... I .... are saying that making the 8 this season is not a huge priority. It 's not what this season is about. If we keep improving and manage enough games to make the eight then bonus... yeah I would be has happy as anyone.
Lets take Brian Lake for an example. Last year he limped into the finals and was so shot he needed three operations in the pre-season and this season he hasn't been able to play anywhere near his best.
The Bulldogs would justify there decision last season to tape him together and hopefully snatch a flag.

If Rance cops the same injuries what would you expect our club to do in our position this year??? Would we tape Rance together in the hope we could make the eight??? you answer that question and you'll realise how serious we are this season.
This season is preparation for next season. Just like last season was preparing for this year..
Making the eight would be huge bonus but it's not what this season is about.

What if he's 100% fully fit this year? If players are injured then sure we'd probably be conservative, but it would have to be serious. Try keeping the lad out of a final because he's a bit sore.
Of course finals are a bonus, but assuming it was a priority what would Dimma be doing differently? Playing Tuck ? Crikey !

 

[NQTIGER]

What if he's 100% fully fit this year? If players are injured then sure we'd probably be conservative, but it would have to be serious. Try keeping the lad out of a final because he's a bit sore.
Of course finals are a bonus, but assuming it was a priority what would Dimma be doing differently? Playing Tuck ? Crikey !

Is rance injured?

Or have i missed something?

 

[nut]

What if he's 100% fully fit this year? If players are injured then sure we'd probably be conservative, but it would have to be serious. Try keeping the lad out of a final because he's a bit sore.
Of course finals are a bonus, but assuming it was a priority what would Dimma be doing differently? Playing Tuck ? Crikey !

Welcome aboard Patrick Smith

I'm talking pretty serious injuries that required operations...

 

[nut]

Is rance injured?

Or have i missed something?

No I was being hypothetical.... but yes he did come off sore after the lions game.

 

[Wally Matera]

Agree with everything except the part about Hislop. Don't think he has really had a fair crack at it this year. First game in Sydney was played in fairly poor conditions, although I still enjoyed his attack on the ball. Last weekend against the Lions he didn't get much more than a quarter to show anything. With King going out this week I reckon he'll start on the ground and be given licence to create some havoc with his attack on the footy.

My mum could outrun Slops. Serious...

Its like watching a truck.

 

[Wally Matera]

You really do sit on the fence.............

Ruthless is the ULTIMATE fence sitter.... have had that tit-for-tat with him for years.

 

[captain blood 17]

There's one other factor i didn't consider until today that may actually help decide if we make finals or not. We have a softish draw for the rest of the season, if we can hold our list relatively injury free, at some stage, the bottom teams that aren't gonna make finals, will put their players in for surgery. Could definately play into the tigers hands. It's usually around the round 16 to 18 mark it starts to happen.

 

[Rayzorwire]

To me there is little point playing finals if you can't compete and I just feel that we would get blown away early by the pace and pressure and the whole experience would be awful...

And next year exactly the same thing could happen to us.

We're far better off to have a year of finals experience already under our belts going into next year than not.

Tuck would have been competing against Cotchin in clearances. At the start of the season I wanted Tuck in. We would have beaten a few sides with Tuck in the middle including Carlton. But the short term pain has seen Cotchin become an elite clearance player, plus we are playing a midfield structure that well be playing together for the next 4-5 years atleast.

Tuck and Cotchin averaged the same number of clearances last year in the same side nut, Tuck wasn't taking ball off him, he was helping him get it more in the clear, blocking and causing spillages he could pounce on.

What we've essentially lost is all Tuck's clearances and tackles in order to play various combinations of Nahas, Conca, King and Grigg as part-time inside mids, and used too much of clearance players with defensive deficiencies (Foley, Cotchin, Martin and the part-timers), as our numbers out of games have clearly demonstrated all year.

Lets say we did make finals, who would we likely be playing?

WC, Freo, Ess, North, Sydney, Saints, etc.

Hardly teams who we would be worried about getting smashed by. Maybe WC over there could get hold of us, maybe. Laughable to think that we'd be scarred from playing a finals game IMO.

Spot on DD.

Scenario a) we get badly beaten and know we have a stack of hard work to do over the summer to take the next step. b) We're really competitive and take a lot out of the game. c) We win a final and go into next year with a massive buzz behind us.

Spot on. Thats why he was shopped around and nobody wanted him. The game has passed him by. To slow with limited disposal skills. With the congestion of todays press, winning contested ball and blindly bombing it just doesnt work.

Winning contested ball and 'blindly bombing it' is one of the key ways to beat the press Baz. Win the centre clearances you give your forwards 1:1 contests and it goes a long way to winning the game. Win 3-4 in a row and score and you can blow a game apart right then and there. All you have to do is keep winning the middle, every time they kick a goal we usually have a quick reply.

Our midfield and forward half structure ATM should be:

C: Deledio Tuck Nahas
HF: Martin Reiwoldt Cotchin
F: King Vickery White
Foll: Graham Jackson Foley

Win the ball more often out of the middle and from the stoppages then get it any old how (but quickly!) down to players who can win more than their share of 1:1 contests, or lock the ball into your forward line, and you win the game against anyone - the 'press' is rendered totally irrelevant to the result. You actually turn the press into a disadvantage for them, because you use it when they're transitioning from the back half, they use it when you're transitioning from the back half, together it introduces low scoring patches into the game. Your side is dominating the fast scoring patches of the game because you've got the right combination of clearance machines and classy forwards.

Doesn't matter one iota that Tuck's opponent *might* burn him off for a half a game (far more likely IMO that the opposition coach will try to hide their slowest clearance player on him - particularly if he's doing well at the stoppages - and it won't hurt us at all) when you're killing the opposition in the middle.

IMO, Tuck has been marginalised mostly because the coaching staff have no idea how to maximise our existing assets to win games of football. When I see Hardwick pumping his fist, running around and tearing at his hair in the last minutes of games, personally, I assume he's actually trying his best to win and using what he thinks is the side most capable of doing so.

I'm also inclined to think that in several instances our 'development' of first year players has been more about Hardwick overestimating what those players are capable of and underestimating what established players contribute than being for development in and of itself.

 

[rammbo]

There's one other factor i didn't consider until today that may actually help decide if we make finals or not. We have a softish draw for the rest of the season, if we can hold our list relatively injury free, at some stage, the bottom teams that aren't gonna make finals, will put their players in for surgery. Could definately play into the tigers hands. It's usually around the round 16 to 18 mark it starts to happen.

So do you want to make finals now ? Or do you still think that will destroy us?

 

[captain blood 17]

Rammbo, just saying we have a softer draw. It's ok to disagree. Teams that no longer have a chance of making finals usually put the que in the rack on some players around the round 16 to 18 mark so they can start pre season on time. So we play what would seem more mid to bottom table teams. Surely you can see how that benefits our chances of making finals. I'm not retracting anything, just pointing out what happens. If we make finals great, but we aint ready yet. Let's get over the Demons first hey.

 

[captain blood 17]

So do you want to make finals now ? Or do you still think that will destroy us?

And i never said it would destroy us. Stop getting so emotional.

 

[maceman]

At least discuss it in it's context Tugg. (Come at me brah).

Playing finals is what footballers actually play the game for. If that's not the end goal (GF) then why play? Finals experience, obliterated or not is...you guessed it, finals experience. And they'll be better for the experience. It's a taste and the more they taste it the more they'll want it.

If you think they are playing for mediocrity then I'm sorry to dissapoint. They all want to play finals!

 

[_RT_]

And next year exactly the same thing could happen to us.

We're far better off to have a year of finals experience already under our belts going into next year than not.

If we were being competitive with other top 8 sides I'd have no hesitation in agreeing with you. But given the only way we have been able to compete/win against those sides this year is to meet them either with injury problems i.e. Essendon/Fremantle or in the wet i.e. Sydney. Outside that Carlton should have belted us first up, while Hawthorn & the Pies both did. Carlton next week and Geelong at the end of the month should both beat us quite comfortably in the next few weeks as well.

Should we get to the finals and play Sydney in Sydney or West Coast/Freo in Perth and they were at/near full strength I'd expect all 3 to beat us quite comfortably in finals. The only way I'd give us a chance is if we somehow managed to get a home final against them or if we were to play the Dees/Bombers/North in a final in Melbourne.

 

[captain blood 17]

There's an article right now on the AFL website "Tigers refreshed after travel", make of it what you will people.

 

[Matty Knights]

Irritating things- team getting smashed in clearances whilst our number one clearance playing is rotting in the magoos.

 

[Rayzorwire]

If we were being competitive with other top 8 sides I'd have no hesitation in agreeing with you. But given the only way we have been able to compete/win against those sides this year is to meet them either with injury problems i.e. Essendon/Fremantle or in the wet i.e. Sydney.

There's nothing to say we wouldn't face them and other sides under similar circumstances in the finals. The Hawks are already bordering on not having a spine, Hodge, Sewell, Mitchell, Rioli, Burgoyne are ALL injury prone, we could realistically play Hawthorn (or any other top-4 side for that matter) in a semi missing half their midfield and forwardline. All the top sides are vulnerable to injuries, fatigue and poor form, we have a handful of players who on their day are capable of turning matches against any side. Sporting history is replete with examples of sides who won finals because they made it and were the better side on the day, against a far more fancied opposition who failed.

Knowing these things, why wouldn't we give ourselves every chance to succeed?

Should we get to the finals and play Sydney in Sydney or West Coast/Freo in Perth and they were at/near full strength I'd expect all 3 to beat us quite comfortably in finals.

Sydney who we've recently been very competitive with interstate, Freo who we've recently beaten and who have an injury list longer than Sandilands' legs, and WCE who we thrashed last year with the only real difference in between then and now being that their coaching staff has formulated a superior game plan to our current one and maximised their assets nicely, while we've been determined to play silly buggers at the selection table.

WCE haven't overtaken us in personnel since we thrashed them last year, they're just better coached at this stage - significantly so, which in all fairness is probably to be expected given the resources they have and Worsfold's experience and ability. Swap coaches and game plans, we'd be top-4, while WCE would be lucky to have won a game (though Shannon Hurn would be averaging 180 a week in Supercoach).

Playing our best-22, we shouldn't have the slightest fear of not being competitive against any of those sides, whether it's the G, Subi, or anywhere else.

Take a look at Tuck smashing WCE's mids last year, he had a direct hand in three of Reiwoldt's first four goals with some outstanding quality possessions, would have been BOG behind only Jack at the end of the first quarter, and easily in the top-5 for the game from both sides.

You remember Tucky, that painfully slow old hack who can't keep up with the game early on and can't use the ball to save himself?

What a mysterious turn of events to have gone from being able to do that last year against what is now a guaranteed finals midfield, to not possibly being able to compete against them this year. No injuries responsible, no off-season surgery or severely limited pre-season, he just got 40% slower and less capable over the course of 8-9 months...as we've witnessed in the zero full AFL games he's played this year.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

You remember Tucky, that painfully slow old hack who can't keep up with the game early on and can't use the ball to save himself?

If ling from geelong can get a game...tucky's a shoe in......

 

[_RT_]

There's nothing to say we wouldn't face them and other sides under similar circumstances in the finals. The Hawks are already bordering on not having a spine, Hodge, Sewell, Mitchell, Rioli, Burgoyne are ALL injury prone, we could realistically play Hawthorn (or any other top-4 side for that matter) in a semi missing half their midfield and forwardline. All the top sides are vulnerable to injuries, fatigue and poor form, we have a handful of players who on their day are capable of turning matches against any side. Sporting history is replete with examples of sides who won finals because they made it and were the better side on the day, against a far more fancied opposition who failed.

Knowing these things, why wouldn't we give ourselves every chance to succeed?

What are the odds that we'll have our best 22 on the park, fit and in form while the opposition are hit pretty hard with injury? To compete with the better sides IMO this is what would need to happen and quite frankly I can't see it happening, especially with such a young list having gone through a gruelling 22 H&A rounds.

Sydney who we've recently been very competitive with interstate, Freo who we've recently beaten and who have an injury list longer than Sandilands' legs, and WCE who we thrashed last year with the only real difference in between then and now being that their coaching staff has formulated a superior game plan to our current one and maximised their assets nicely, while we've been determined to play silly buggers at the selection table.

WCE haven't overtaken us in personnel since we thrashed them last year, they're just better coached at this stage - significantly so, which in all fairness is probably to be expected given the resources they have and Worsfold's experience and ability. Swap coaches and game plans, we'd be top-4, while WCE would be lucky to have won a game (though Shannon Hurn would be averaging 180 a week in Supercoach).

Playing our best-22, we shouldn't have the slightest fear of not being competitive against any of those sides, whether it's the G, Subi, or anywhere else.

We weren't exactly competitive with the Swans, despite having fairly similar stats we gave up 10 more scoring shots and had the Swans converted a little better a 10 point loss could have quite easily been a 5-7 goal loss.

Last time we played Freo in Perth they had 19 more scoring shots that us, granted that was early on in Hardwick tenure. Since then we have won the last couple against them over here where Freo play like shot. Freo are a totally different side when playing at home with their crowd behind them. Same goes for WC, our last game against them in Perth was an 80 point smacking and I acknowledge that it was in 09 and the side is quite different to back then. But take a look at the Eagles current lineup and they still have at least 12 players on their list that were part of their last finals campaign. How many players do we have that have played finals?

As you said to be competitive we need to have our best 22 on the park to compete with these sides, again what are the chances of that happening at the end of a long gruelling 22 rounds

Take a look at Tuck smashing WCE's mids last year, he had a direct hand in three of Reiwoldt's first four goals with some outstanding quality possessions, would have been BOG behind only Jack at the end of the first quarter, and easily in the top-5 for the game from both sides.

You remember Tucky, that painfully slow old hack who can't keep up with the game early on and can't use the ball to save himself?

What a mysterious turn of events to have gone from being able to do that last year against what is now a guaranteed finals midfield, to not possibly being able to compete against them this year. No injuries responsible, no off-season surgery or severely limited pre-season, he just got 40% slower and less capable over the course of 8-9 months...as we've witnessed in the zero full AFL games he's played this year.

There is an old saying about footballers when they get to around 30, the game can and will pass them by very quickly. Now while Tuck might be fit and raring to go, it seems that there just isn't a place for him in our side given the changes made to the gameplan i.e. from a contested ball winning side to a run and gun side.