Asia Is a US-China war about to break out?

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VineySMASH

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Oh it's not my feelings - I'm saying YOU have an agenda. You're facts are wrong - a few months ago it's a FACT CCP operatives issues nuclear threats upon Japan.

I'm pointing out what your agenda is. You reek of greens voter, arts student type.
I'm neither an arts student or a Greens voter.

I'm interested in why would you think someone being a student of Arts, especially when we're discussing history, which falls under the Arts faculty in university - would be a bad thing? Are you anti-intellectual? Are you a fascist and/or nationalist?

I have no agenda except for accuracy. My facts can't be wrong, they are facts. Do you know what a fact is?
 

ExcitementMachine

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I'm neither an arts student or a Greens voter.

I'm interested in why would you think someone being a student of Arts, especially when we're discussing history, which falls under the Arts faculty in university - would be a bad thing? Are you anti-intellectual? Are you a fascist and/or nationalist?

I have no agenda except for accuracy. My facts can't be wrong, they are facts. Do you know what a fact is?
Firstly,
what you have is an opinion based on facts you cherry picked. Ultimately China is a dictatorship and run by a murderous dictator - madman. CCP state media claiming it will nuke Japan if Taiwan etc.

Am I anti-intellectual? is that a bad thing - fun fact the cultural revolution in the 1960's in China?
Am I fascist and or nationalistic? Another bad thing to be? I doubt I fall under that umbrella, but Xi is, and so is the 1.5 billion Nation of China he is in charge of. Kind of more important and relevant than any labels I fit under.
 

madmug

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MacArthur also wanted to nuke Shanghai, Beijing and Hong Kong.

If I'm being forced to choose who is more likely to actually use nuclear weapons between the USA and China, its USA every time. They've actually done it, and they've made many threats of it over the years, even causing a constitutional crisis.

China has an actual policy to never use them except for retaliation if they get nuked first. The threat of China nuking someone is very low on the list of problems between the Anglo world and China.
CCP policy. Ok I'm convinced.

I also think (hope) no one would use them. The consequences would be huge.

However, CCP bullying isn't reducing any nations worries about what the CCP might do to maintain power.
 

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VineySMASH

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CCP policy. Ok I'm convinced.

I also think (hope) no one would use them. The consequences would be huge.

However, CCP bullying isn't reducing any nations worries about what the CCP might do to maintain power.
Countries don't just make those kinds of statements and policies for shits and giggles mate.

Its the same thing with the USA on Taiwan, they have been clear that they likely wouldn't intervene if an armed conflict broke out in China over Taiwan, but they may.
 

madmug

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Countries don't just make those kinds of statements and policies for shits and giggles mate.

Its the same thing with the USA on Taiwan, they have been clear that they likely wouldn't intervene if an armed conflict broke out in China over Taiwan, but they may.
Fine, I just don't see anything as being beyond the CCP's capacity to get what it wants & to keep its power & control over the Chinese populace.
 

VineySMASH

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Fine, I just don't see anything as being beyond the CCP's capacity to get what it wants & to keep its power & control over the Chinese populace.
You've nailed one very important distinction with that post. China is ruthless in cotrlling its own borders and people - totally agree. The difference between China and America though, is that America sees the whole world as its sphere of influence.

The fact is the economic landscape has shifted back to Asia, in line with historical norms. The ruling class of the Anglo world were happy to ship working class and middle class jobs to China/Asia when it only impacted regular people - but now they've realised that by doing so, they've hurt their own influence (i.e. there are more billionaires in Asia than the rest of the world combined, and that brings with it a lot of influence) so the Anglo world are trying to reset the landscape - but cutting themselves off from Europe in the process.
 

VineySMASH

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If the USA and China decide to go to war, I'd be grateful if they could hold off for about 20 years.

That way we should have new subs here in Australia.
Haha yeah those subs are really going to deter China in 25 years, and not just serve to make us completely reliant on the USA for defence materiel.
 

madmug

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You've nailed one very important distinction with that post. China is ruthless in cotrlling its own borders and people - totally agree. The difference between China and America though, is that America sees the whole world as its sphere of influence.

The fact is the economic landscape has shifted back to Asia, in line with historical norms. The ruling class of the Anglo world were happy to ship working class and middle class jobs to China/Asia when it only impacted regular people - but now they've realised that by doing so, they've hurt their own influence (i.e. there are more billionaires in Asia than the rest of the world combined, and that brings with it a lot of influence) so the Anglo world are trying to reset the landscape - but cutting themselves off from Europe in the process.
The move is now on to leave China. The cost of doing business has become intolerable. Thats both because of rapidly rising costs, & the controlling behaviour of the CCP.

The CCP itself is currently busy culling the billionaire class, except anyone in the Xi Jinping tent that is. ;)
 

VineySMASH

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The move is now on to leave China. The cost of doing business has become intolerable. Thats both because of rapidly rising costs, & the controlling behaviour of the CCP.

The CCP itself is currently busy culling the billionaire class, except anyone in the Xi Jinping tent that is. ;)
You think so? Consider how much more wealth exists in China, and the massive increase in living standards today compared to the pre-CCP era. People are mistaken if they believe the Chinese people love the CCP purely because of propaganda - fact is, they put the runs on the board. They made China strong and prosperous and their people on the whole love them for it.

Gotta be careful not to only read American, UK and Australian news on China - it is really distorted.
 

madmug

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Haha yeah those subs are really going to deter China in 25 years, and not just serve to make us completely reliant on the USA for defence materiel.
What defence equipment do we produce now?

A few ships, not much else we need. None or the pointy end bits that do the blowing up thingy.
 

VineySMASH

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What defence equipment do we produce now?

A few ships, not much else we need. None or the pointy end bits that do the blowing up thingy.
What I mean is that we don't even have choice as a consumer anymore. For the JSF and our subs we're going to be 100% reliant on American supply, we won't get the IP for either.

What this does is effectively hand our strategic policy decisions directly to the United States. Not that we've had a problem doing that in the past anyway, but now its very official.

This is the real reason Europe and China are so pissed with us, in the realm of diplomacy and strategic policy we've effectively just made it public that we are part of America.

It's really ******* dumb on our behalf - it puts a target on our back while freezing out Europe. And I'm someone who believes we are better off with nuclear subs and hated the deal with France.
 

Rob R

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You've nailed one very important distinction with that post. China is ruthless in cotrlling its own borders and people - totally agree. The difference between China and America though, is that America sees the whole world as its sphere of influence.

The fact is the economic landscape has shifted back to Asia, in line with historical norms. The ruling class of the Anglo world were happy to ship working class and middle class jobs to China/Asia when it only impacted regular people - but now they've realised that by doing so, they've hurt their own influence (i.e. there are more billionaires in Asia than the rest of the world combined, and that brings with it a lot of influence) so the Anglo world are trying to reset the landscape - but cutting themselves off from Europe in the process.
If it's the Anglo world, why are Japan and India now allies? How do you explain Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia etc all starting to push back (politely given the CCP has shown it won't hesitate to steal, coerce and murder). This isnt Anglo v China, that is just shallow CCP propaganda, it is a growing part of the world including major Indo-pacific powers against Xi and cronies who are oppressing the great Chinese people.

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VineySMASH

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If it's the Anglo world, why are Japan and India now allies? How do you explain Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia etc all starting to push back (politely given the CCP has shown it won't hesitate to steal, coerce and murder). This isnt Anglo v China, that is just shallow CCP propaganda, it is a growing part of the world including major Indo-pacific powers against Xi and cronies who are oppressing the great Chinese people.

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You realise the opinion of China within ASEAN is significantly better than the opinion of the USA right?

India and Japan both hate China, and China hates both of them - this isn't new. The term Indo-Pacific is an Anglo term that makes no sense - India has no access to the Pacific - everyone knows its the Asia Pacific.

Pushing back is fine, its what nation states do in negotiation. The problem Australia has just created for itself is that now neither the strongest country in Asia (China) or the strongest country in Europe (France) will engage with us.

Isolationism is a death sentence in a globalised world.
 

ExcitementMachine

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You realise the opinion of China within ASEAN is significantly better than the opinion of the USA right?

India and Japan both hate China, and China hates both of them - this isn't new. The term Indo-Pacific is an Anglo term that makes no sense - India has no access to the Pacific - everyone knows its the Asia Pacific.

Pushing back is fine, its what nation states do in negotiation. The problem Australia has just created for itself is that now neither the strongest country in Asia (China) or the strongest country in Europe (France) will engage with us.

Isolationism is a death sentence in a globalised world.
Alp government would change that in 6 months even if it were true which is contentious at best that australia is even isolated.

You're cherry picking as always to suit your argument/agenda.
 

madmug

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You think so? Consider how much more wealth exists in China, and the massive increase in living standards today compared to the pre-CCP era. People are mistaken if they believe the Chinese people love the CCP purely because of propaganda - fact is, they put the runs on the board. They made China strong and prosperous and their people on the whole love them for it.

Gotta be careful not to only read American, UK and Australian news on China - it is really distorted.
Yes the economic growth was amazing to see. Most of it being powered by Western capital & its associated greed.

The sheer corruption from all levels of government is all down to the CCP.

How they balance the flight of foreign capital, the luxurious, excessive needs of the top CCP cadre & the more modest expectations of the people, especially those still on low wages, remains to be seen. Nationalistic jingoism will only go so far.

Generally they just us force, state violence.
 

VineySMASH

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Yes the economic growth was amazing to see. Most of it being powered by Western capital & its associated greed.

The sheer corruption from all levels of government is all down to the CCP.

How they balance the flight of foreign capital, the luxurious, excessive needs of the top CCP cadre & the more modest expectations of the people, especially those still on low wages, remains to be seen. Nationalistic jingoism will only go so far.

Generally they just us force, state violence.
I think you drastically underestimate China tbh. I agee that western capital powered their growth in wealth, but the cat is out of the bag now - wealth begets wealth and China is going to be, no questions asked, the biggest home of capital for the next 50 years at least.

Having bad relationships with China for the next 50 years, is like having a bad relationship with the USA for the last 50 years.

Why should Australia, who has benefited massively from China economically, shoot itself in the face just to suck up to waning powers (UK and USA)? Its so strategically stupid its actually incredible.

As I said, we've put so many important nations offside recently (Indonesia, France, China) and for what strategic benefit?
 

madmug

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You realise the opinion of China within ASEAN is significantly better than the opinion of the USA right?

India and Japan both hate China, and China hates both of them - this isn't new. The term Indo-Pacific is an Anglo term that makes no sense - India has no access to the Pacific - everyone knows its the Asia Pacific.

Pushing back is fine, its what nation states do in negotiation. The problem Australia has just created for itself is that now neither the strongest country in Asia (China) or the strongest country in Europe (France) will engage with us.

Isolationism is a death sentence in a globalised world.
Isolationism is more akin to the CCP & France than anyone else (bar NK)

No, the CCP created this situation when it started the bullying & economic attack last year, 18 months before the Subs deal.

IMO we always should have had a decent blue water naval capacity, including nuclear powered Hunter Killer Subs. We like in a big ocean, diesel subs don't rate here.

The French will need to get over it. Currently they look inept & insecure enough now with their gnashing of teeth & bleating.

France does not own our strategic interests. They make it plain they own theirs, to the exclusion of all others in Europe when it suits them.
 

VineySMASH

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Isolationism is more akin to the CCP & France than anyone else (bar NK)

No, the CCP created this situation when it started the bullying & economic attack last year, 18 months before the Subs deal.

IMO we always should have had a decent blue water naval capacity, including nuclear powered Hunter Killer Subs. We like in a big ocean, diesel subs don't rate here.

The French will need to get over it. Currently they look inept & insecure enough now with their gnashing of teeth & bleating.

France does not own our strategic interests. They make it plain they own theirs, to the exclusion of all others in Europe when it suits them.
Wait, do you not realise how isolationist the USA has been recently? Did you see what happened in the middle east or in their dealings with NATO?

China has been the opposite of isolationist for many years now.

Correct France doesn't own our strategic policy, the USA does.
 

ExcitementMachine

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Wait, do you not realise how isolationist the USA has been recently? Did you see what happened in the middle east or in their dealings with NATO?

China has been the opposite of isolationist for many years now.

Correct France doesn't own our strategic policy, the USA does.
And then came covid which put a dagger through Trump.

China is a dictatorship though so they went full blown isolationist the past 18 months just to let you know,

You must have been living under a rock?

This thread has been side tracked a bit...
When I entered it was about who was a bigger nuclear threat USA or China.
Seems a certain poster has turned it into fawning over China, its billionaires, and its perceived power over the next 50 years, ironically.

Leaves me scratching my head, no, actually leaves me in no doubt what certain poster stands for.

Whilst adjusting his halo he's giving mental health jibes.

Go dogs!
Yes its a rant and I've been drinking.
 

madmug

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Wait, do you not realise how isolationist the USA has been recently? Did you see what happened in the middle east or in their dealings with NATO?

China has been the opposite of isolationist for many years now.

Correct France doesn't own our strategic policy, the USA does.
Belt & road is designed to debt burden the 3rd world. They learned that from the World bank. The CCP are good at copying stuff.

The Aussie cringe dictates we get behind someone's skirt. The LibLabs have decided the US is by far the lesser of two evils. Neither have the balls to chart the nations own course. A hang over from the days of Empire I guess.

The French being way behind in the 'who do we trust' stakes.
 

VineySMASH

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Belt & road is designed to debt burden the 3rd world. They learned that from the World bank. The CCP are good at copying stuff.

The Aussie cringe dictates we get behind someone's skirt. The LibLabs have decided the US is by far the lesser of two evils. Neither have the balls to chart the nations own course. A hang over from the days of Empire I guess.

The French being way behind in the 'who do we trust' stakes.
Debt burdening is an Anglo/Japanese specialty.

We don't need to get behind anyone's skirt, is the point. We can be independent. People who actually respect our nation would agree with that.

Fact is France is the most important nation in Europe right now, and China is the most important nation in Asia, and Indonesia is the most important nation in South East Asia. We've just pissed off all three for *checks notes* no actual strategic benefit.
 

ExcitementMachine

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Debt burdening is an Anglo/Japanese specialty.

We don't need to get behind anyone's skirt, is the point. We can be independent. People who actually respect our nation would agree with that.

Fact is France is the most important nation in Europe right now, and China is the most important nation in Asia, and Indonesia is the most important nation in South East Asia. We've just pissed off all three for *checks notes* no actual strategic benefit.
Whatever you think of the liberal party,
It potentially a game changer in 6 months if an alp government forms.
No such luck with china.
Biden was a game changer.
Such is democracy.
Who is a bigger nuclear threat, USA or china?
 

madmug

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Debt burdening is an Anglo/Japanese specialty.

We don't need to get behind anyone's skirt, is the point. We can be independent. People who actually respect our nation would agree with that.

Fact is France is the most important nation in Europe right now, and China is the most important nation in Asia, and Indonesia is the most important nation in South East Asia. We've just pissed off all three for *checks notes* no actual strategic benefit.
So you think the rest of the EU really GAF about France's Subs?

The fact is we do hide behind the US skirt.

Indonesia is just as upset with China as the rest of ASEAN.

Pissing of China! We just joined the queue is all, about 18 months ago.

Pissing off France, not great, but not permanent.

Pissing of Indonesia, not really, see ASEAN above.
 

VineySMASH

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So you think the rest of the EU really GAF about France's Subs?

The fact is we do hide behind the US skirt.

Indonesia is just as upset with China as the rest of ASEAN.

Pissing of China! We just joined the queue is all, about 18 months ago.

Pissing off France, not great, but not permanent.

Pissing of Indonesia, not really, see ASEAN above.
France in many ways is the EU when it comes to defence/military matters.

Indonesia and ASEAN are both far more favourable to China than the USA in disposition, see here:


7 out of 10 ASEAN members prefer China to USA, including the big two (Indonesia and Malaysia).
 

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