Is Brett Ratten a genius? (Now with Poll)

[RudyBlue]

He sure was

Correct

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Sure he was

He was for a year -2011. won the coaches award IIRC and was top 5 in a few media awards (Mitchell and Judd the others). Never really backed it up though and got progressively worse every year

 

[Ricky112]

I've been gung ho about Ratten for years. Carlton's best coach this century without a doubt.

 

[navi_]

Sure he was

honestly the only excuse for being this ignorant is being too young to remember

murphy was a bona fide goal kicking inside mid. 30 goals in 2009. body started breaking down after about 2012

3-4 really strong years though.

 

[projectv]

Genius for what? Saints have been tracking for finals since 2016. Add 5 traded players and it’s about time they made it.

If you think we were "tracking for finals" under Alan Richardson then I don't think you know much about footy.

He took us backwards.

Ratten inherited largely the same squad. The in's have helped but apart from Butler, most people would probably agree the players we brought in haven't set the world on fire.

No one would have rated us for top 8. Certainly not ahead of clubs like GWS, Melbourne, or Western Bulldogs, or even Carlton.

We're not a top 8 list - and we'll get exposed in finals - yet here we are.

 

[aussierulesrules]

If you think we were "tracking for finals" under Alan Richardson then I don't think you know much about footy.

He took us backwards.

Ratten inherited largely the same squad. The in's have helped but apart from Butler, most people would probably agree the players we brought in haven't set the world on fire.

No one would have rated us for top 8. Certainly not ahead of clubs like GWS, Melbourne, or Western Bulldogs, or even Carlton.

We're not a top 8 list - and we'll get exposed in finals - yet here we are.

Ryder has been terrific.

 

[StKildaKing]

Where's that stat from?

Draft Guru has them as the 7th oldest list.

Clark, Coffield and Paton are in year 3 and obviously Max King is a baby for a key forward but otherwise it's not a particularly young side I wouldn't have imagined and certainly not a young list.

The Saints recruiters - who I believe got changed in recent years - did a brilliant job accumulating underappreciated talent and building depth. They found a real niche with 19 year olds who didn't get picked in their draft year - Sinclair, Marshall, Long and Paton. 4 very good players.

Check out the weekly ages and games played.

 

[Freomaniac]

Disagree.

His finals record is 1 huge win and three heartbreaking losses. We were absolutely up for the fight in each of those games.

I think the gameplan stood up. We beat Geelong in the H&A 2009, 2010 and would have in 2011 if Robbie Warnock wasn’t concussed. We also ran St Kilda close in 2009 and smashed them in 2010.

Collingwood and Hawthorn probably had our measure but Ratts could’ve worked them out with more time.

Our major deficiencies were:

-mental (though the group was young)
-lack of depth on the list, too much reliance on stars i.e. Judd and Murphy

Looking back, our trajectory under Ratts was eerily similar to Geelong pre-2007 and Richmond pre-2017. Probably closer to Richmond from a list POV.

I still remembered that Elim final Carlton had vs the swans at the SCG in 2010... Chris Judd had an excellent 3rd quarter but Carlton went down by under a goal.

 

[Ricky112]

If you think we were "tracking for finals" under Alan Richardson then I don't think you know much about footy.

He took us backwards.

Ratten inherited largely the same squad. The in's have helped but apart from Butler, most people would probably agree the players we brought in haven't set the world on fire.

No one would have rated us for top 8. Certainly not ahead of clubs like GWS, Melbourne, or Western Bulldogs, or even Carlton.

We're not a top 8 list - and we'll get exposed in finals - yet here we are.

The Saints list is rubbish.

One of the worst in the league (no offence lol).

Richardson was a complete disaster. Can take years to overcome bad programming from a bad coach.

Ratten's got them up and about, enthusiastic, playing for each other.

That's all you can ask for at the end of the day.

They are a TEAM. I love what they are about in 2020.

I'd be happy for them if they go on a run and do a 2016 Bulldogs.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Where's that stat from?

Draft Guru has them as the 7th oldest list.

22 on the park. Don't need to consider Brown/Savage/Roberton/Abbott if they're not getting games.

Geel 27.14**
Haw 26.90**
W.C. 26.40
P.A. 26.22**
Coll 26.13**
Carl 26.02*
GWS 25.91*
Rich 25.83*
N.M. 25.77
Melb 25.36*
Bris 25.33*
Ess 25.19*
Adel 25.07*
Frem 24.92**
W.B. 24.91**
St.K 24.88
Syd 24.40**
G.C. 24.00**

* includes named 22 for Saturday
** after 16 games

 

[pablo668]

I used to think he wasn't much of a coach. I don't think I could have been more wrong.
I'm happy for him that he got another senior gig, and it's awesome that he has the Saints doing well. Regardless of how good the list is or whatever, it looks to me like he's got the club in to a largely positive place that will good to build from.

I also agree with the poster several posts back. Ryder has been really good. Wouldn't mind him at Freo tbh.

 

[master bate]

22 on the park. Don't need to consider Brown/Savage/Roberton/Abbott if they're not getting games.

Geel 27.14**
Haw 26.90**
W.C. 26.40
P.A. 26.22**
Coll 26.13**
Carl 26.02*
GWS 25.91*
Rich 25.83*
N.M. 25.77
Melb 25.36*
Bris 25.33*
Ess 25.19*
Adel 25.07*
Frem 24.92**
W.B. 24.91**
St.K 24.88
Syd 24.40**
G.C. 24.00**

* includes named 22 for Saturday
** after 16 games

Interesting. If Hannebery doesn't get injured and Ryder/Carlisle don't get dropped when they seem pretty clearly best 22 they probably jump ahead of several sides. Not entirely convinced it means all that much.

They certainly have a nice even spread between 21 and 26 and King with huge potential as the one very young player.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Interesting. If Hannebery doesn't get injured and Ryder/Carlisle don't get dropped when they seem pretty clearly best 22 they probably jump ahead of several sides. Not entirely convinced it means all that much.

As a crude measure, large disparities between age rank and ladder position tend to tell a tale. Generally, a team whose ladder position is 9 ordinal points above their age ranking finishes high on the ladder, but looking at the other clubs who've finished 5th-8th with 9+ disparity:

Year	ClubID	Ladder	Age	Year + 1	Year + 2	Year + 3
2020	St.K	6th*	16th
2013	P.A.	5th	16th	3rd	9th	10th
2005	Geel	5th	15th	10th	1st	2nd
1999	P.A.	7th	16th	14th	5th	3rd
1995	W.B.	7th	16th	15th	3rd	3rd

- Port were perhaps unlucky not to make the GF the following year, then fell back to mid-table - perhaps a result of rising too quickly after near-insolvency
- Geelong had a year of soul-searching in 2006 before establishing a dominant era
- Port again, a bounce in 2000 before sustained high finishes culminating in the 2004 flag
- Bulldogs, another one to bounce before a hat-trick of top four (H&A) finishes

Not going overboard about the Saints' longer-term prospects at this stage, but they have a foundation to build on and seem to have finally shaken off the effects of the post-Lyon era.

(At the other extreme we have Hawthorn -14 and North -8, North having already cleared the decks.)

 

[WillHayward]

22 on the park. Don't need to consider Brown/Savage/Roberton/Abbott if they're not getting games.

Geel 27.14**
Haw 26.90**
W.C. 26.40
P.A. 26.22**
Coll 26.13**
Carl 26.02*
GWS 25.91*
Rich 25.83*
N.M. 25.77
Melb 25.36*
Bris 25.33*
Ess 25.19*
Adel 25.07*
Frem 24.92**
W.B. 24.91**
St.K 24.88
Syd 24.40**
G.C. 24.00**

* includes named 22 for Saturday
** after 16 games

Jeez Brisbane have done well.

 

[WillHayward]

Hawks have certainly gone downhill since his move to the Saints.

 

[Freomaniac]

Jeez Brisbane have done well.

Brisbane are a young squad punching above their weight at the moment.

Saying that Freo are not too bad.

I don't mind Freo making finals with an average age of 25 years old.

Random thing to say here. If the average age of the squad is 24 years old, are they inexperienced?

Just thinking...... 24 Times 2 is 48. So if you had minus 21 from 48 that equals 27.

Imagine having 11 27 year Olds and 11 21 year Olds..... That would be a balanced list.

 

[Munga]

Genius for what? Saints have been tracking for finals since 2016. Add 5 traded players and it’s about time they made it.

Short memories some people. Here's where the experts tipped the Saints to finish in 2020:

10, 12, 11, 17, 14, 10, 10, 15, 10, 14, 12

That's an average on 12th.

But hey it sounds like you must've tipped us for the top 8, I hope you had money on it!

Ratt's played the kids, rejuvenated the backline and trusted the youth, unlocked Steele's potential, and got the team playing one of the most entertaining attacking styles this year.

1 to 18: AFL experts predict the full 2020 ladder — and Geelong is tipped to slide

1 to 18: AFL experts predict the full 2020 ladder — and Geelong is tipped to slide

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Genius for what? Saints have been tracking for finals since 2016. Add 5 traded players and it’s about time they made it.

I think ratten should take a fair bit of the credit he keeps things simple plays a free flowing game plan and plays people in there preferred positions you just need to look at the huge improvement in jack Steele as an example Alan Richardson was playing him as a tagger ffs talk about wasting a players strengths!

 

[10571z]

I think ratten should take a fair bit of the credit he keeps things simple plays a free flowing game plan and plays people in there preferred positions you just need to look at the huge improvement in jack Steele as an example Alan Richardson was playing him as a tagger ffs talk about wasting a players strengths!

I've found it quite interesting listening to the "Sacked" podcasts. The common trend is "over coaching" thinking they need to basically have every action planned. Leppitsch explains it well and when he went to Richmond he saw how different it was. Hardwick just had a simple plan.

 

[Chinacats]

Short memories some people. Here's where the experts tipped the Saints to finish in 2020:

10, 12, 11, 17, 14, 10, 10, 15, 10, 14, 12

That's an average on 12th.

But hey it sounds like you must've tipped us for the top 8, I hope you had money on it!

Ratt's played the kids, rejuvenated the backline and trusted the youth, unlocked Steele's potential, and got the team playing one of the most entertaining attacking styles this year.

1 to 18: AFL experts predict the full 2020 ladder — and Geelong is tipped to slide

1 to 18: AFL experts predict the full 2020 ladder — and Geelong is tipped to slide

www.foxsports.com.au

Good points but some were picking the saints for top 8 in 2017 & 2018.

 

[stfan]

22 on the park. Don't need to consider Brown/Savage/Roberton/Abbott if they're not getting games.

Geel 27.14**
Haw 26.90**
W.C. 26.40
P.A. 26.22**
Coll 26.13**
Carl 26.02*
GWS 25.91*
Rich 25.83*
N.M. 25.77
Melb 25.36*
Bris 25.33*
Ess 25.19*
Adel 25.07*
Frem 24.92**
W.B. 24.91**
St.K 24.88
Syd 24.40**
G.C. 24.00**

* includes named 22 for Saturday
** after 16 games

Yes young team fielded this year with a strong focus on future seasons.

Ratts has done in the main what is best for the future, but has also reaped the rewards this year too.

However it is not just about Ratts (a clear upgrade on Richo who come match day was poor) and the Saints fantastic haul of trades last year, but it all really started in 2016 in after half a decade of often wrong draft picks of getting our act together.

2016 moves saw the Saints:
- trading in Steele for the club's future 2017 second round draft pick.
- trading with the Hawks picks 10, 68 for picks 23, 36, and 2017 first-round pick (Hawthorn) - This gain us Coffield, Battle and Long
-picking Marshall as a rookie

To be successful a club needs to do many things right. No one thing will do it. From 2016 St Kilda has been getting more and more things correct.


The first 22 is now quite a young one, but most can play on for 5 years and so this now allows a good platform to really improve. Our average will again creep up, as well the games experience and strength of the players and hopefully our ability to be a better team. Geary may retire this year, but Paton has already taken his position and is an upgrade as has good offensive skills, is quick but still shuts down the oppositions best small forward each week. Ryder will go, but will have another year or tow and so Saints need to find another ruck.


Players U26 at St Kilda

Wilkie Howard Paton
Coffield Clavarino/Austin Long
Sinclair Dunstan Jones
Billings Battle Butler
Lonie King Marsh

Marshall Clark Gresham

Bytel Bell Phillips Byrne

(Bold are already worthy first 22 players)


Now we are not there yet. We started the season knowing we needed two more really good inside mids, and that is still the case, and so this remains a very big missing piece of our success puzzle.. Though Clark's two halves in the midfield against WCE and then GWS after a season on the HBF show hope that he may be one. Bytel is a promising young mid injured all of last year, and development cruelled this year by the lack of reserves football.

But the U26 shown above provides a very good platform to build on. Membrey and Hill both should have 5 good years left in them.

 

[Substance]

Newton, Einstein, Dyson, Ratten.

 

[Rickee]

Genius for what? Saints have been tracking for finals since 2016. Add 5 traded players and it’s about time they made it.

2016 - 9th with a 12-10 record (% of out the 8)
2017 - 11th with an 11-11 record (1 game and % out of the 8)
2018 - 16th with a 4-17-1 record (8 1/2 games and % out of the 8)
2019 - 14th with a 9-13 record (3 games and % out of the 8) - Ratten took over in Round 18, side won 3 out of last 6 games.

I hate to disagree, but 2016 and 17 were OK years, but we were awful in 2018 and would have continued that way under Richo. We were clearly getting worse, not better because as much as I liked Alan, he didn't have the killer instinct and was taking us back to another spoon. All hail Ratts!

 

[Kram]

Can't stand St Kilda but really respect what Ratten has come in and done there, probably coach of the year so far.

 

[Ron The Bear]

However it is not just about Ratts (a clear upgrade on Richo who come match day was poor) and the Saints fantastic haul of trades last year, but it all really started in 2016 in after half a decade of often wrong draft picks of getting our act together.
...
To be successful a club needs to do many things right. No one thing will do it. From 2016 St Kilda has been getting more and more things correct.

Yeah. It's never all the coach, good or bad.

Can't stand St Kilda but really respect what Ratten has come in and done there, probably coach of the year so far.

Reckon Hinkley (10th to 1st) has it sewn up.