Is Canberra rugby league heartland?

[Gigantor]

It can't be that small, there's a McDonalds in Yass.

Ha actually, it's on the outskirts of Yass, on the HUme highway.

There's another Maccas along the road towards Sydney that is an even smaller town, and in the other direction, Gundagai has a maccas and other outlets, and it's about half the size of Yass, maybe smaller.

 

[doona]

according to people up north it is rugby heartland

http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/08/04/its-official-the-nrl-is-getting-smashed-by-the-afl/

I grew up in canberra and Brumbies (Rugby) >>>>> light years >>>>> Raiders (Rugby League). You can just look at the stats for the crowd numbers between the Brumbies and Canberra but you could have gone deeper then that.

Most of the private schools in canberra played Rugby (St. Edmunds was actually one of the best Rugby schools in NSW and has actually won the Waratah Shield the most times out of any school) and participation numbers were a lot higher in Rugby then league.

I haven't lived there since the inception of GWS and GWS home games down in canberra, but I would still think that Brumbies and Super Rugby would be the number winter sport down there in the nations capital.

 

[Rob]

Ha actually, it's on the outskirts of Yass, on the HUme highway.

There's another Maccas along the road towards Sydney that is an even smaller town, and in the other direction, Gundagai has a maccas and other outlets, and it's about half the size of Yass, maybe smaller.

Do they have signs that say "My ass" as well?

 

[Garlic muncher]

Do they have signs that say "My ass" as well?

Eat enough of it and your ass is the sign

 

[thegreig]

Very strong private school rugby comp here, and the senior rugby comp is a pretty good standard.

Senior footy in Canberra is struggling a bit because of:
1. the NEAFL
2. big dollars available on the Riverina.

As has been mentioned by you, rugby league in Canberra is augmented by teams from the surrounding towns.

As an example, Goulburn plays in the top tier of local rugby league, but has always played in the 4th or even 5th tier of Canberra footy.

With only the one NEAFL team now have the local leagues stabilised?
Also have people taken to the new canberra team or is it just seen as an eastlake incarnation

 

[harmesy 37]

I grew up in canberra and Brumbies (Rugby) >>>>> light years >>>>> Raiders (Rugby League). You can just look at the stats for the crowd numbers between the Brumbies and Canberra but you could have gone deeper then that.

Most of the private schools in canberra played Rugby (St. Edmunds was actually one of the best Rugby schools in NSW and has actually won the Waratah Shield the most times out of any school) and participation numbers were a lot higher in Rugby then league.

I haven't lived there since the inception of GWS and GWS home games down in canberra, but I would still think that Brumbies and Super Rugby would be the number winter sport down there in the nations capital.

Fair points made. It is interesting to get a rugby perspective.

I don't know much about the rugby comp. as I do about the footy competition so feel free to correct me, but I went onto this site

http://vikingsrugby.com.au/teams/fixture/#.V8yQGI9OJFo

And it indicated that there were these Canberra teams in first division

Wests?
Easts?
Uni North
Tuggeranong Vikings
Royals?

I put ? question marks against them as I presume these are Canberra teams.

And these were in the 1st division
Queanbeyan
Uni North
Tuggeranong
Wests
Easts
Royals
ADFA

Is there another rugby (open age group) on top of these two?

That is 12 senior teams... a fair bit short of the 20 plus footy teams, but maybe there is another rugby comp.

 

[doona]

Fair points made. It is interesting to get a rugby perspective.

I don't know much about the rugby comp. as I do about the footy competition so feel free to correct me, but I went onto this site

http://vikingsrugby.com.au/teams/fixture/#.V8yQGI9OJFo

And it indicated that there were these Canberra teams in first division

Wests?
Easts?
Uni North
Tuggeranong Vikings
Royals?

I put ? question marks against them as I presume these are Canberra teams.

And these were in the 1st division
Queanbeyan
Uni North
Tuggeranong
Wests
Easts
Royals
ADFA

Is there another rugby (open age group) on top of these two?

That is 12 senior teams... a fair bit short of the 20 plus footy teams, but maybe there is another rugby comp.

http://community.brumbies.com.au/competition-overview/

ACT PREMIER DIVISION:

The Premier Division has seven clubs participating with all competing in 1st grade, 2nd grade, and Colts. The 7 Premier Clubs are Canberra Royals, Eastern Suburbs, Gungahlin Eagles, Queanbeyan Whites, Tuggeranong Vikings, Uni-Norths Owls & Western District Lions.

FIRST DIVISION:

2016 has seen the First Division competition combine with the Premier Division 3rd and 4th grade. As a result First Division consists of 12 clubs, from within Canberra and its surrounding regions. These twelve teams are Canberra Royals, Eastern Suburbs/RMC, Gungahlin Eagles, Queanbeyan Whites, Tuggeranong Vikings, Uni-Norths Owls, Western District Lions, Goulburn Dirty Reds, Hall Bushrangers, Cooma Red Devils, ADFA and new inclusion Young Yabbies.

It is actually surprising to see that the amount of mens divisions have been reduced for 2016 from 3 grades into 1 in the first division competition. So there must be something putting pressure on the numbers of players.

On top of that there is the NPC competition, a national competition that the Vikings play in (http://www.rugby.com.au/competitions/nrc) and of course the Brumbies in Super Rugby.

Correct me if I am wrong but this is up against in the AFL 4 grades consisting of 6 teams in 1st & 2nd grade and then the old CD competition (CD 1 & CD2) being merged in with AFL canberra to have ~10 teams in each of the 3rd and 4rth divisions?

Plus Eastlake in the NEAFL obviously.

 

[Gigantor]

While the top Canberra aussie rules clubs are pretty strong and well-resourced, the truth is that the top tier of Canberra footy has struggled to maintain six competitive clubs for some thirty years now.

Wagga joined the comp for a couple of years, and were quite competitive, and Batemans Bay joined for a couple of seasons, and they weren't too competitive.

Gunghalin is the newest club, in a growth area, and they are trying to bring it up to senior level with assistance, but for a new club to come into the comp against five established clubs, will it's a pretty hard road.

Anyway, that's where we find ourselves, trying to keep a comp going with six clubs, one of them very new, another trying to keep the NEAFL dream alive (and finding it very tough), and the upshot is that in the 1st semi, Queanbeyan defeated Tuggeranong by over 20 goals (because of the six clubs, only the top 3 are any good).

I'm not sure how they can improve the situation in all honesty.

People forget how hard it is to keep a senior footy team on the paddock - you need 25 decent footballers as a minimum - it can be pretty hard.

Notice that ANU play senior teams in both the rugby comp and soccer comp, but for 35 years now have played in the 3rd tier of aussie rules, because of the difficulty of getting together a competitive team against clubs backed by significant resources.

 

[Garlic muncher]

While the top Canberra aussie rules clubs are pretty strong and well-resourced, the truth is that the top tier of Canberra footy has struggled to maintain six competitive clubs for some thirty years now.

Wagga joined the comp for a couple of years, and were quite competitive, and Batemans Bay joined for a couple of seasons, and they weren't too competitive.

Gunghalin is the newest club, in a growth area, and they are trying to bring it up to senior level with assistance, but for a new club to come into the comp against five established clubs, will it's a pretty hard road.

Anyway, that's where we find ourselves, trying to keep a comp going with six clubs, one of them very new, another trying to keep the NEAFL dream alive (and finding it very tough), and the upshot is that in the 1st semi, Queanbeyan defeated Tuggeranong by over 20 goals (because of the six clubs, only the top 3 are any good).

I'm not sure how they can improve the situation in all honesty.

People forget how hard it is to keep a senior footy team on the paddock - you need 25 decent footballers as a minimum - it can be pretty hard.

Notice that ANU play senior teams in both the rugby comp and soccer comp, but for 35 years now have played in the 3rd tier of aussie rules, because of the difficulty of getting together a competitive team against clubs backed by significant resources.

It is exactly the same as many comps, the initial Canberra teams of Eastlake, Qbyan, Ainslie and along time ago Manuka before merging with Eastlake won all the flags and had all the support and money, it was tough to break into, a bit like the original VFL teams who by and large have all the power and supporters and money and the latecomers like North, Bulldogs etc have struggled to keep up.

Belconnen at different times have made a charge, Weston Creek after good initial seasons fell by the wayside etc etc.

Belconnen is probably part of the top group now, they do OK.

 

[harmesy 37]

http://community.brumbies.com.au/competition-overview/


It is actually surprising to see that the amount of mens divisions have been reduced for 2016 from 3 grades into 1 in the first division competition. So there must be something putting pressure on the numbers of players.

On top of that there is the NPC competition, a national competition that the Vikings play in (http://www.rugby.com.au/competitions/nrc) and of course the Brumbies in Super Rugby.

Correct me if I am wrong but this is up against in the AFL 4 grades consisting of 6 teams in 1st & 2nd grade and then the old CD competition (CD 1 & CD2) being merged in with AFL canberra to have ~10 teams in each of the 3rd and 4rth divisions?

Plus Eastlake in the NEAFL obviously.

That is interesting information Schmidt2003. So going by your figures there are similar numbers? or more? playing union at the open age group than rugby league.
Based on teams in Canberra (including Queanbeyan) I make it a total of 14 or 15 rugby teams (not sure where the Western District Lions are located but that would make 15 teams).
In footy (football, Australian football, Aussie rules, call it what you want for clarification) there are

6 Canberra based teams in 1st grade (including Queanbeyan)
6 Canberra based teams in 2nd grade
7 Canberra based teams in 3rd grade (plus three outside Canberra - Batemans Bay, Goulburn and Coota.)
8 Canberra based teams in 4th grade (plus three outside Canberra)

So that makes a total of 27 clubs - senior clubs - in Canberra. 28 if you include the NEAFL team. This eclipses the rugby total. Why is this the case? Perhaps because footy allows their players to get the hands on the ball and kick it more often Just a theory...I mean union and league control the media - so why are double the amount of people playing footy than league or union?


btw - many people forget that the man most responsible for creating Australian football Tom Wills was born not far from Canberra. If anything, this area should be the footy heartland.

 

[doona]

This eclipses the rugby total.

I wouldn't say eclipses it is on par. there are 26 teams across the 3 divisions in Rugby plus the Vikings in the NPC competition which would be the equivalent of the NEAFL.

However I would say that 10 years ago (even last year there were 2 extra divisions), there would have been a lot more rugby teams (at least 15-20 or even more).

This shows that the Rugby Union participation levels are going down, and from the amount of teams now in the AFL 4 divisions (I use to play Rugby but umpire u/18 and reserves in the AFL) that the participation levels are on the increase and will soon overtake Rugby union.

 

[Gigantor]

I wouldn't say eclipses it is on par. there are 26 teams across the 3 divisions in Rugby plus the Vikings in the NPC competition which would be the equivalent of the NEAFL.

However I would say that 10 years ago (even last year there were 2 extra divisions), there would have been a lot more rugby teams (at least 15-20 or even more).

This shows that the Rugby Union participation levels are going down, and from the amount of teams now in the AFL 4 divisions (I use to play Rugby but umpire u/18 and reserves in the AFL) that the participation levels are on the increase and will soon overtake Rugby union.

At one stage, not that long ago, I'm pretty sure all rugby clubs fielded firsts, seconds, thirds and colts.

 

[Slax]

Ha actually, it's on the outskirts of Yass, on the HUme highway.

There's another Maccas along the road towards Sydney that is an even smaller town, and in the other direction, Gundagai has a maccas and other outlets, and it's about half the size of Yass, maybe smaller.

Try about a tenth of the population. Yass is a reasonably sized town, has about 20,000 I reckon, Gundagai would be lucky to have much over 1,500.

Canberra though is the melting pot of sport in this country, the AFL had a chance to get into the market properly in 1994 when Fitzroy had an offer to play 3 games a year there, the AFL though killed that one off because it would've given Fitzroy a lifeline and probable survival.

What is more interesting is the market is going to get tougher. With test status now for Manuka Oval it means international cricket will be there on a regular basis, but also there are strong rumours that in the next group of A-League licences Canberra will get a team. This is expected with the next tv rights deal in 2018.

The AFL needs to decide what it wants to do, GWS can't grow properly without playing more games in Sydney, yet AFL need a presence in Canberra to help rest back some of the ground League has taken over the last 20 years.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Try about a tenth of the population. Yass is a reasonably sized town, has about 20,000 I reckon, Gundagai would be lucky to have much over 1,500.

Canberra though is the melting pot of sport in this country, the AFL had a chance to get into the market properly in 1994 when Fitzroy had an offer to play 3 games a year there, the AFL though killed that one off because it would've given Fitzroy a lifeline and probable survival.

What is more interesting is the market is going to get tougher. With test status now for Manuka Oval it means international cricket will be there on a regular basis, but also there are strong rumours that in the next group of A-League licences Canberra will get a team. This is expected with the next tv rights deal in 2018.

The AFL needs to decide what it wants to do, GWS can't grow properly without playing more games in Sydney, yet AFL need a presence in Canberra to help rest back some of the ground League has taken over the last 20 years.

Yass has about 5,000 people, according to wiki it has 5,500 people, probably includes the workers at Boral Brick factory when it was up and running in Yass, i worked there one summer, the town is a truck stop.

RL has not taken any ground of footy for 10 years.

It took ground of them when it was winning premierships many years ago now.

 

[Gigantor]

Try about a tenth of the population. Yass is a reasonably sized town, has about 20,000 I reckon, Gundagai would be lucky to have much over 1,500.

Canberra though is the melting pot of sport in this country, the AFL had a chance to get into the market properly in 1994 when Fitzroy had an offer to play 3 games a year there, the AFL though killed that one off because it would've given Fitzroy a lifeline and probable survival.

What is more interesting is the market is going to get tougher. With test status now for Manuka Oval it means international cricket will be there on a regular basis, but also there are strong rumours that in the next group of A-League licences Canberra will get a team. This is expected with the next tv rights deal in 2018.

The AFL needs to decide what it wants to do, GWS can't grow properly without playing more games in Sydney, yet AFL need a presence in Canberra to help rest back some of the ground League has taken over the last 20 years.

I would put Yass around the 6,000 mark, the Yass district would make it more.

I would estimate Gundagai to be in the range of 1,500 to 2,000.

Anyway, the fact that they both contain the major take away outlets does not make either a metropolis, which was the original point.

 

[Garlic muncher]

I would put Yass around the 6,000 mark, the Yass district would make it more.

I would estimate Gundagai to be in the range of 1,500 to 2,000.

Anyway, the fact that they both contain the major take away outlets does not make either a metropolis, which was the original point.

Yep lets throw in Murrambateman , should add another 2 or 3 hundred.

 

[Gigantor]

Yep lets throw in Murrambateman , should add another 2 or 3 hundred.

don't forget Wee Jasper!

 

[Garlic muncher]

38 rugby teams playing in the ACT Rugby Union
32 footy teams playing in AFL Canberra

Numbers would be pretty close it would appear.

Rugby seems to have more depth around the surrounding country areas than footy, but not really on the South Coast of NSW, more the rural inland areas like Bungendore, Crookwell, Taralga, Boorawa, pretty sure these tiny little hamlets don't even have RL teams any more.

http://www.rugbylink.com.au/common/...de=0&gradeid=18130_1&entityid=53001&id=LADBAS

The rugby link has ladders for a couple of comps, but i have only counted ACT rugby, not south coast/monaro as i have also done for the football, only counted AFL Canberra not the South Coast comp.

http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=1051-1051-0-392791-0&a=LADDER

 

[Garlic muncher]

Ok here it is another bit of useless info ....

27 mens senior RL teams across Canberra district RL ( first, reserves and George tooke ) 14 senior mens teams are from outside Canberra. ( more than 50%)

33 mens senior AF teams across 4 divisions in AFL Canberra, 8 teams from outside Canberra, ( 2 from Batemans bay, Cootamundra, Yass, Goulburn, Cooma, 2 from QBYan) ( less than 25%)

38 mens senior teams in the ACT Rugby Union first reserves and then 2 other divisions, ( 10 are from outside Canberra ) 4 Qbyan, 2 Cooma, 2 Goulburn, 2 Young

Young AFL team plays in the Central West league, so it starts to become quite a bit confusing, but clearly from that makeup all 3 codes have decent representation but RU may be in front as far as participation numbers go and also the number of teams (%) that actually run out of Canberra.

Using those stats RL is quite a fair way 3rd and appears to rely on the surrounding rural ares to prop the game up.

 

[Gigantor]

Ok here it is another bit of useless info ....

27 mens senior RL teams across Canberra district RL ( first, reserves and George tooke ) 14 senior mens teams are from outside Canberra. ( more than 50%)

33 mens senior AF teams across 4 divisions in AFL Canberra, 8 teams from outside Canberra, ( 2 from Batemans bay, Cootamundra, Yass, Goulburn, Cooma, 2 from QBYan) ( less than 25%)

38 mens senior teams in the ACT Rugby Union first reserves and then 2 other divisions, ( 10 are from outside Canberra ) 4 Qbyan, 2 Cooma, 2 Goulburn, 2 Young

Young AFL team plays in the Central West league, so it starts to become quite a bit confusing, but clearly from that makeup all 3 codes have decent representation but RU may be in front as far as participation numbers go and also the number of teams (%) that actually run out of Canberra.

Using those stats RL is quite a fair way 3rd and appears to rely on the surrounding rural ares to prop the game up.

Pretty much sums it up - and the Yass, Cootamundra and Bateman's Bay teams are very recent additions (I wasn't even aware they were playing in Canberra) - note that they are all in the 3rd and 4th grade, you can see how difficult it is to get teams to be competitive at senior level, the comp only just managing to have a six team comp, with the top 3 miles ahead of the bottom 3.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Pretty much sums it up - and the Yass, Cootamundra and Bateman's Bay teams are very recent additions (I wasn't even aware they were playing in Canberra) - note that they are all in the 3rd and 4th grade, you can see how difficult it is to get teams to be competitive at senior level, the comp only just managing to have a six team comp, with the top 3 miles ahead of the bottom 3.

Not a new thing to Canberra across it seems a range of sports, the depth is just not there, the depth comes from a well run club and a club with $$, that usually comes from many years of smart operating and getting in first before your competitors, Ainslie, Qbyan and Eastlake have in some cases over 80 years head start on clubs like Gungahlin, a club like Ainslie owns it's own ground.

Black Diamond League which operates in Newcastle appears to have the same problems, they would not be up to Canberra standard but they have 27 teams across 3 divisions ( no reserves like AFL Canberra ) but only 6 teams in the top division, 10 teams in divi 2 and 11 in divi 3.

 

[Gigantor]

Not a new thing to Canberra across it seems a range of sports, the depth is just not there, the depth comes from a well run club and a club with $$, that usually comes from many years of smart operating and getting in first before your competitors, Ainslie, Qbyan and Eastlake have in some cases over 80 years head start on clubs like Gungahlin, a club like Ainslie owns it's own ground.

Black Diamond League which operates in Newcastle appears to have the same problems, they would not be up to Canberra standard but they have 27 teams across 3 divisions ( no reserves like AFL Canberra ) but only 6 teams in the top division, 10 teams in divi 2 and 11 in divi 3.

The six senior teams do have Reserves.

 

[Garlic muncher]

The six senior teams do have Reserves.

Sorry i meant "unlike"

"Unlike Canberra" or perhaps i meant to write, like Canberra does or has.

 

[harmesy 37]

I wouldn't say eclipses it is on par. there are 26 teams across the 3 divisions in Rugby plus the Vikings in the NPC competition which would be the equivalent of the NEAFL.

However I would say that 10 years ago (even last year there were 2 extra divisions), there would have been a lot more rugby teams (at least 15-20 or even more).

This shows that the Rugby Union participation levels are going down, and from the amount of teams now in the AFL 4 divisions (I use to play Rugby but umpire u/18 and reserves in the AFL) that the participation levels are on the increase and will soon overtake Rugby union.

So going by that Rugby website you provided there are
7 Canberra based teams in the Premier Division
7 Canberra based teams in the 2nd division
8 Canberra ? based teams in the 3rd division
9? Canberra based teams in the 4th Division

Not sure where some of the clubs are located but I included them in the total. I know - RMC - Royal Military College so I included etc.

So that makes a total of 31 teams...Jeepers. Well that is surprising. I thought football would be ahead of rugby, but obviously the rugby code must have significant appeal to have this many teams in the Canberra region. It makes one realise how much work footy has to do in this region.

As someone who has played both games, I really cannot understand how one could enjoy playing rugby more than footy, (purely because you get to do more with the footy when you get it)...but well done rugby for those impressive numbers. I know rugby is good at fostering a community environment, so perhaps that is its appeal.

 

[madmug]

So going by that Rugby website you provided there are
7 Canberra based teams in the Premier Division
7 Canberra based teams in the 2nd division
8 Canberra ? based teams in the 3rd division
9? Canberra based teams in the 4th Division

Not sure where some of the clubs are located but I included them in the total. I know - RMC - Royal Military College so I included etc.

So that makes a total of 31 teams...Jeepers. Well that is surprising. I thought football would be ahead of rugby, but obviously the rugby code must have significant appeal to have this many teams in the Canberra region. It makes one realise how much work footy has to do in this region.

As someone who has played both games, I really cannot understand how one could enjoy playing rugby more than footy, (purely because you get to do more with the footy when you get it)...but well done rugby for those impressive numbers. I know rugby is good at fostering a community environment, so perhaps that is its appeal.

I thought it was the rah rahs game? Or is that a sort of community of its own?