Coach Is Hardwick now the second best coach in the league behind Clarkson?

4THAWN

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So four quality kids and a bunch of role players including a cooked Ben Cousins. Not exactly helping your argument. Tambling had one good year.
-decent or better young players such as delidio, cotchin, reiwoldt, edwards, schultz, polo, mcguane, rance, morton, vickery, tambling, white, moore, and foley.

keep in mind we're talking about what the list was like THEN, not NOW. We know tambling was a bust, but at the end of 2009 when Dimma took over he was a good young player who'd finished 4th in the BnF.


You cannot tell me this isn't more good young talent that Clarko had at his disposal when he took over.

the only players from when clarko took over that were good enough to hold on for say 7-10 years were S.Mitchell, L.Hodge, B.Sewell
 

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Dogs_r_barking

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People forget how poor Richmond were. That turn-around happened under Hardwick.

I mean, it wasn't even the talent of the players that was an issue. It was the culture and laziness. People forget the laziness and the hard talk players went through a few ago, led on a player level by Ivan Maric (an average player but a hard worker who wanted success for his club and knew they needed to pull their thumbs out). Dimma was part of that shift in mentality, so should be commended for it.

Dimma also changed his coaching philosophy, too. At one point he was very intent on turning Richmond into a possession-heavy team like Hawthorn. That changed, and he tailored the game plan to what players he actually had and it paid off hugely.
I think Dimma is on record saying that he watched what Bevo did with the Bulldogs, created a strong team first culture, played for the coach, the players and the whole club united, and said he wanted to bring that to Richmond.

Richmond had a lot of individuals playing Riewoldt, Dusty etc and considering how long Dimma has been at Richmond he didn’t achieve anything until he copied Bevo, who had only been at the Bulldogs for three years when he became a premiership coach, and he hasn’t finished yet.
 

blaisee

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When hardwick took over he had at his disposal
-22 year old Delidio, #1 draft pick and had played over 80 games.
-21 year old up and coming J.Riewoldt who'd kicked 32 goals in 2009 and was about to explode
-20 year old Trent Cotchin, #2 draft pick,
-20 year old shane edwards with 30 games under his belt
-30 year old Ben Cousins who was actually pretty good still
-25 year old Jay Schultz
-22 year old Dan Jackson with 50 games under the belt
-27 year old 135 gamer and captain Chris Newman
-22 year old Richard Tambling playing the best footy of his life, 4th in the 2009 BnF.

compare this to Clarko not having buddy, rough, cyril, etc on the list but actually going out and drafting them in the first year

I have been waiting for this time to come and it has .

A hawthorn supporter using how good Shane Edwards is as an argument as to why our coach Hardwick is overratted .

What a time to be alive
 

blaisee

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I think Dimma is on record saying that he watched what Bevo did with the Bulldogs, created a strong team first culture, played for the coach, the players and the whole club united, and said he wanted to bring that to Richmond.
Can you please provide some evidence of this?

I have never ever seen it said ever
 

Roddy

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Wow there's some monumental HDS - Hawthorn Derangement Syndrome - and epic desperate clutching at straws going on in this thread...
 

PetterdHoisted

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Wow there's some monumental HDS - Hawthorn Derangement Syndrome - and epic desperate clutching at straws going on in this thread...
Agreed, what is getting under maybloom bonnets here?

I really thinks it's fairly obvious that Bevo and Dimma are the two best player motivators in the league.

Clarko better tactician, simmo I don't know because not enough exposure of WCE in the east.

All up I'd take Dimma, then Bevo then clarko
 

Hawk_francais

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Hardwick has turned it around in recent years. Let's be honest, even great coaches can lose their way a little bit. Things might be very happy at Tigerland now but it's only a few years ago that Jack Riewoldt was publicly criticising Hardwick for 'copying Hawthorn too much'.

To say he's the best is easy while they're at the top. Climbing the mountain was a bumpy ride for the tiges, we'll see how they go coming down.
 

Ron The Bear

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I think Dimma is on record saying that he watched what Bevo did with the Bulldogs, created a strong team first culture, played for the coach, the players and the whole club united, and said he wanted to bring that to Richmond.

Richmond had a lot of individuals playing Riewoldt, Dusty etc and considering how long Dimma has been at Richmond he didn’t achieve anything until he copied Bevo, who had only been at the Bulldogs for three years when he became a premiership coach, and he hasn’t finished yet.
Coaches would be foolish not to look at what premiership sides do well and incorporate aspects of it into their club. In turn, Collingwood in particular copied a lot of what Richmond did in 2017. But a premiership team must evolve to stay ahead of the pack, and Hardwick has proved he isn't a one-trick pony. FWIW I rate Bevo very highly and have no doubt he will have the Bulldogs back in contention within a couple of years.

I also recall someone at the Bulldogs c. 2013 saying the club aspired to follow Richmond's example (McCartney ?).

Hardwick also did a lot of reading and study of overseas sports in the 2016 post-season and came up with various ideas which led to a second transformation of the club (after the one initiated by Gale & co. in late 2009).
 
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Maybenextyear

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I think any coach that takes over a basket case and takes that team not only to finals but premierships has to be rated very highly regardless of who or what team that is.
 

greatwhiteshark

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Hardwick right now is arguably the best, 2 flags in 3 years and room for more still.
Coaches however are only as good as their list. There is always somebody better than somebody else in all walks of life and to even get a coaching job in the AFL you have to be a good coach.
It simply comes back to how you relate to your players and how talented those players are.

The question I have is if Dew was coach of Richmond’s list would they be a contender or flag winning side? And if Hardwick coached the Suns last year would they of still finished last?
 

harrythetiger

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Hardwick right now is arguably the best, 2 flags in 3 years and room for more still.
Coaches however are only as good as their list. There is always somebody better than somebody else in all walks of life and to even get a coaching job in the AFL you have to be a good coach.
It simply comes back to how you relate to your players and how talented those players are.

The question I have is if Dew was coach of Richmond’s list would they be a contender or flag winning side? And if Hardwick coached the Suns last year would they of still finished last?
The last point is a very interesting discussion, I have no idea. I'm interested to hear people's thoughts.
 

blaisee

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The last point is a very interesting discussion, I have no idea. I'm interested to hear people's thoughts.
The coaching question is not as simple as it seems.

The coaches job is not as simple as match day moves it is much much bigger than that, I know in Richmond's case at least it covers much much more.

Dimma is ultimately responsible for the whole footy department, relationships within the department, job descriptions and areas of responsibility, also recruitment and retainment of talent, and helps drive culture

Clearly there are others involved, but Balme, and the rest of them don't get appointed without the coaches buy in.

To an extent the actual match day coaching can be outsourced, but the relationship stuff cannot and is much much more important.

Dimma also does heaps of other things, Rioli, and Stack both lived with Dimma, and his key relationships with him, and Mrs Hardwick all make a difference, some would say THE difference in the team, and the club as a whole.

All coaches have great relationships with players, but his relationships with Cotch and Martin in particular and other key stakeholders like Blair Hartley, make all the difference and for now at least the proof is in the pudding, and the pudding has taken about 9 years to bake.

In Richmond's case Dimma has left an imprint on the club to make it an extension of his family and it is evident in the way he communicates both externally and internally.

No other coach talks the talk and walks the walk like him, references to Mrs Hardwick and the way the team loves and cares for one another is evidence and proof of this

I am not sure any other coach in the league goes to this level, and that's why I think he stands alone at the moment as the best club figurehead in the AFL

Having superstars like Jack, Cotch, Rance Dusty, Edwards ect helps, but I am not sure they would all have stayed at Richmond and knocked back millions of dollars collectively if it was not for the environment that he has created.
 

UAWM

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I think he is 2nd to Clarkson.

At the end of the day it should be about Flags - Clarkson 4 & Hardwick 2. Both coaches are extraordinary but Clarkson has to be on top.

Just looking at the First 10 years of each coaches career they're both fantastic in terms of finals but Clarkson is again on top in this department.

Clarkson's First 10 Years as Coach
2005 - 14th
2006 - 11th
2007 - 5th
2008 - Premiers
2009 - 9th
2010 - 7th
2011 - PF Loss
2012 - GF Loss
2013 - Premiers
2014 - Premiers
10 Years for 7 Finals appearances and 3 Grand Finals

Hardwicks First 10 Years as Coach
2010 - 15th
2011 - 12th
2012 - 12th
2013 - 5th
2014 - 8th
2015 - 5th
2016 - 13th
2017 - Premiers
2018 - PF Loss
2019 - Premiers
10 Years for 6 Finals appearances and 2 Grand Finals

Even if you wanted to do Clarkson's Last 10 Years instead of his First 10
2010 - 7th
2011 - Prelim Loss
2012 - Grand Final Loss
2013 - Premiers
2014 - Premiers
2015 - Premiers
2016 - 3rd
2017 - 12th
2018 - 4th
2019 - 9th
10 Years for 8 Finals appearances and 4 Grand Finals
 

blaisee

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I think he is 2nd to Clarkson.

At the end of the day it should be about Flags - Clarkson 4 & Hardwick 2. Both coaches are extraordinary but Clarkson has to be on top.

Just looking at the First 10 years of each coaches career they're both fantastic in terms of finals but Clarkson is again on top in this department.

Clarkson's First 10 Years as Coach
2005 - 14th
2006 - 11th
2007 - 5th
2008 - Premiers
2009 - 9th
2010 - 7th
2011 - PF Loss
2012 - GF Loss
2013 - Premiers
2014 - Premiers
10 Years for 7 Finals appearances and 3 Grand Finals

Hardwicks First 10 Years as Coach
2010 - 15th
2011 - 12th
2012 - 12th
2013 - 5th
2014 - 8th
2015 - 5th
2016 - 13th
2017 - Premiers
2018 - PF Loss
2019 - Premiers
10 Years for 6 Finals appearances and 2 Grand Finals

Even if you wanted to do Clarkson's Last 10 Years instead of his First 10
2010 - 7th
2011 - Prelim Loss
2012 - Grand Final Loss
2013 - Premiers
2014 - Premiers
2015 - Premiers
2016 - 3rd
2017 - 12th
2018 - 4th
2019 - 9th
10 Years for 8 Finals appearances and 4 Grand Finals
Your lack of recency bias skews your analysis

Sheedy and Matthews both coached 4 flags, does that mean if they somehow got senior jobs they would also be joint number 1?

Hawthorn haven’t won a final in 4 years, you keep avoiding this conveniently
 

UAWM

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Your lack of recency bias skews your analysis

Sheedy and Matthews both coached 4 flags, does that mean if they somehow got senior jobs they would also be joint number 1?

Hawthorn haven’t won a final in 4 years, you keep avoiding this conveniently
We haven't won a final in 4 years, I'm happy to admit that & i'm not hurt about it... but look at Hardwick with Richmond also, Not winning a final in how ever long. I said at the start of my post it should be about Flags as that defines success imo. So yeah if Sheedy and Matthews came back then they would be the best coaches because they have the flags to back it up. Once again, imo. Flags define success because at the end of the day that's why the players play, and its why the coaches coach.
 

blaisee

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We haven't won a final in 4 years, I'm happy to admit that & i'm not hurt about it... but look at Hardwick with Richmond also, Not winning a final in how ever long. I said at the start of my post it should be about Flags as that defines success imo. So yeah if Sheedy and Matthews came back then they would be the best coaches because they have the flags to back it up. Once again, imo. Flags define success because at the end of the day that's why the players play, and its why the coaches coach.
Thought so
 

PetterdHoisted

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I think he is 2nd to Clarkson.

At the end of the day it should be about Flags - Clarkson 4 & Hardwick 2. Both coaches are extraordinary but Clarkson has to be on top.

Just looking at the First 10 years of each coaches career they're both fantastic in terms of finals but Clarkson is again on top in this department.

Clarkson's First 10 Years as Coach
2005 - 14th
2006 - 11th
2007 - 5th
2008 - Premiers
2009 - 9th
2010 - 7th
2011 - PF Loss
2012 - GF Loss
2013 - Premiers
2014 - Premiers
10 Years for 7 Finals appearances and 3 Grand Finals

Hardwicks First 10 Years as Coach
2010 - 15th
2011 - 12th
2012 - 12th
2013 - 5th
2014 - 8th
2015 - 5th
2016 - 13th
2017 - Premiers
2018 - PF Loss
2019 - Premiers
10 Years for 6 Finals appearances and 2 Grand Finals

Even if you wanted to do Clarkson's Last 10 Years instead of his First 10
2010 - 7th
2011 - Prelim Loss
2012 - Grand Final Loss
2013 - Premiers
2014 - Premiers
2015 - Premiers
2016 - 3rd
2017 - 12th
2018 - 4th
2019 - 9th
10 Years for 8 Finals appearances and 4 Grand Finals
That was an outstanding start for Clarko, '05-'08, really incredible rise.

Is Clarko able to 'step back to go forward' as Hardwick did in 2016 though?
 

Boston tiger

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Hardwick right now is arguably the best, 2 flags in 3 years and room for more still.
Coaches however are only as good as their list. There is always somebody better than somebody else in all walks of life and to even get a coaching job in the AFL you have to be a good coach.
It simply comes back to how you relate to your players and how talented those players are.

The question I have is if Dew was coach of Richmond’s list would they be a contender or flag winning side? And if Hardwick coached the Suns last year would they of still finished last?
What if you were Gold Coast .. who would you take Clarko or Dimma.
 

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