i see you and all oppo fans basically the same, so when i reply to you im basically replying to all oppo fans.
plus wouldnt be surprised if you did do that, pretty much all oppo fans said that lolol
and now look what happened
Coach Is Hardwick now the second best coach in the league behind Clarkson?
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plus wouldnt be surprised if you did do that, pretty much all oppo fans said that lolol
and now look what happened
expert panel lol
the only honors and awards that mean anything in the AFL are coaches votes .
Everything else is basically irrelevant
didn’t that port crab Darcy Jones get an aa jumper this year
- Oct 5, 2004
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Who’s that AA dude that Dusty destroyed in the prelim this year? I’d take Short, Vlastuin and Grimes over him, Luke Ryan and Nick Haynes.
But it’s also great those guys get a pat on the back for great years for their teams during the home and away rounds.
I have no idea what the answer to this question is.
I notice a lot of people are saying Clarko has 4 flags, so he's the best. Dimma now has three flags, so clearly he's the second best.
Given that's all we've really got to go on as outside observers (as well as possibly how they perform in front of the media - and to be fair, there are plenty ahead of Clarko on that front), that's the only way we can answer the question.
But it is an uninformed response, because there is a lot more data required than simply results to be able to have an informed opinion on this one.
This is also why we should never call for a coach's head after a year or two of bad results. Bomber Thompson at Geelong in 2006, Dimma at Richmond in 2016, and Buckley at Collingwood in 2017 - there sure are plenty of supporters (and commentators) with egg on their faces after the fortunes of their respective clubs were turned around after the masses wanted them gone. We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in club land, how the coaches are performing based on their KPI's, and also the quality of relationships they have with their players, club administration, and the like....
I notice a lot of people are saying Clarko has 4 flags, so he's the best. Dimma now has three flags, so clearly he's the second best.
Given that's all we've really got to go on as outside observers (as well as possibly how they perform in front of the media - and to be fair, there are plenty ahead of Clarko on that front), that's the only way we can answer the question.
But it is an uninformed response, because there is a lot more data required than simply results to be able to have an informed opinion on this one.
This is also why we should never call for a coach's head after a year or two of bad results. Bomber Thompson at Geelong in 2006, Dimma at Richmond in 2016, and Buckley at Collingwood in 2017 - there sure are plenty of supporters (and commentators) with egg on their faces after the fortunes of their respective clubs were turned around after the masses wanted them gone. We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in club land, how the coaches are performing based on their KPI's, and also the quality of relationships they have with their players, club administration, and the like....
mpal6
Norm Smith Medallist
This. Clarkson runs a system which has consistently produced both players and assistants. Clarkson has cast an enormous shadow over the last 15 years of AFL - be it on field innovation like zones, clusters, precision kicking etc or off field like his assistants Beveridge/Simpson/Hardwick developing in their own right to win Premierships. We also have Fagan who has come from that system and has done wonders for our club. The only miss so far appears to be Bolton.
Head to head, Hardwick might catch up and even overtake Clarkson in premierships. But Clarkson's vision around innovating and changing the game will continue to keep him a level above the rest.
- Jun 23, 2008
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I guess it's a matter of how far back we go before current/recent performance is worth more than historic success.
Does Clarkson automatically remain the best at any point in time even in 10 years time if he doesn't win another flag because he has 4 and no one else currently does (yet)? Are you still calling him the best if he stays at Hawks and they sit bottom 4 for the next few years? Or does the fact Dimma has been the best performed since 2017, winning more flags, finals and H&A games than any other coach in that time now give us enough current form data that we can call him the best coach in the game currently? That's my argument now.
mpal6
Norm Smith Medallist
I guess it becomes harder to compare at that point. The thing that stood out for me is how Hawks managed to win in 2014/15 after losing Buddy. I'd put Buddy at his peak similar to Dusty as a game changer who can destroy sides in few magical moments. We'll never know if Richmond would do well to win a premiership minus Martin, so that comparison may never eventuate. Examples like these are where Clarkson edges ahead for me, regardless of which point in time comparison you're making.
Hardwick has an excellent system now and is maximizing returns to the best possible level during the available window for Richmond. We can only imagine how he'll respond to certain scenarios like losing Dusty, that's where we have to leave it I guess.
EDIT: I went back and checked to be sure. Buddy was the Coleman medallist in 2014 as well and had another tremendous season. So the comparison would be like handing over Dusty to say another finals contender like Geelong, meeting them in the Grand final and still beating them in 2021. That's the yardstick Clarkson has put out there.
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- Jun 23, 2008
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Eh, people will move on from Coaches Votes as the "ultimate" measure at some point.
I remember about a decade ago when the AFLPA MVP was all the rage ("far more prestigious than the Brownlow"), then it became mainstream and televised, and people realised that players are susceptible to groupthink and hype, and don't really put effort or consideration into their votes. After that, that's when the Coaches Award became the most popular.
Ultimately, people need to form and trust their own opinion, and not just parrot what "experts" or coaches say.
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People can have all the opinions they want, they are welcome to it, fact is coaches are the most qualified to determine the player performances because they actually set the job descriptions, its why the term always used is, “inside our four walls”
In any case suit yourself
um no they don’t
People can have all the opinions they want, they are welcome to it, fact is coaches are the most qualified to determine the player performances because they actually set the job descriptions, its why the term always used is, “inside our four walls”
In any case suit yourself
- Jun 23, 2008
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If they're such trustworthy experts, why are they the first to go when the team and players underperform? Because they're just as callable and capable of having "wrong" ideas about footy as everyone else?
Should we perhaps only be listening to the good, winning coaches and their votes?
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To be fair on Hardwick, he lost Rance in round 1 of 2019, so didn't have a whole preseason to plan for life without him. Then had him retire some way through a preseason as well, after trade period that year. He's also coached Richmond through one of the most difficult seasons ever with training restrictions and hubs, so it's not like he hasn't overcome challenges.
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Is Ty Vickery the only bloke who has been coached by both?
Get him in here, let's hear the ultimate truth, who is numero uno?!
But seriously...trying to think of recent Hawthorn-Richmond trades...not many cross my mind as a 40-something yo, it's like ManU and Liverpool?
Found this, I remember Dear, I'd forgotten about Graham...
www.richmondfc.com.au
Get him in here, let's hear the ultimate truth, who is numero uno?!
But seriously...trying to think of recent Hawthorn-Richmond trades...not many cross my mind as a 40-something yo, it's like ManU and Liverpool?
Found this, I remember Dear, I'd forgotten about Graham...
Top 10 Hawk-Tigers
In the lead-up to Sunday afternoon’s big Round 20 clash between Richmond and Hawthorn at the MCG, Tony Greenberg lists the top 10 players he’s seen represent both clubs.
mpal6
Norm Smith Medallist
I used to rate 2015 is a huge achievement too, went back and checked - that was the season where Hawks did 2 perth trips across finals series during a normal season (no pre-finals bye either) and still came through to win the Premiership. I don't think that has ever been done before.
Like I said earlier, it becomes harder to compare at some point. Both coaches have their peaks, Clarkson's ones continue to stand slightly taller for me. Hardwick can only respond to what gets thrown in front of him, no shame that he's slightly behind one of the master coaches over the last decade.
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Yes again comes back to my question, if both were to retire right now, Clarkson's career stands higher.
Right now though, I don't think there is a better coach in the league than Hardwick. His 2020 for me is where he went from great coach to elite coach.
He turned a team around struggling earlier in the year into the premiers. He completely dismantled West Coast and Geelong's game plans late in the season in important matches to secure top 4. Nic Nat was dominating at that stage, he nullified them with Soldo. He didn't let them mark the football. Hawkins was destroying teams, he completely nullified him. In the finals series, he turned a side that has never been strong at clearances into a clearance machine beast that destroyed the clearance differential in finals compared to our home and away. How did he do that in a week or two? How did he do that with an undersized team full of short people? He beat the 1st placed side that had been excellent all year in a PF at their AO, so he's added that to his finals achievements.
2020 definitely in my eyes is where Hardwick stepped up to be the best coach in the game currently, but that doesn't necessarily put him above Clarkson's career as yet. In the same way as Dusty Martin is currently a better player than GAJ was in 2020 and several years prior, but doesn't mean his career is there yet overall.
- Oct 2, 2008
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People forget how far back Damien Hardwick had to rebuild this club.
People continually say Richmond have no A Graders except Dusty and they're just well coached, yet Dimma has less coach of the year awards than Ken Hinkley. So which one is it? Is Richmond well coached or have they only got the superstars?
When Clarkson took over Hawthorn they were 15 years removed from flags in 71, 76, 78, 83, 86,88 and 91.
When Hardwick took over Richmond they made finals in 1982, 1995 and 2001. Hes coached Richmond 5 less seasons for one less flag, he started 2010 0-9 50% and worse than Fitzroy.
It's really a no contest for me, Clarkson is better cause he's got more premierships but if Hardwicks wins a fourth, he's passed his mentor.
People continually say Richmond have no A Graders except Dusty and they're just well coached, yet Dimma has less coach of the year awards than Ken Hinkley. So which one is it? Is Richmond well coached or have they only got the superstars?
When Clarkson took over Hawthorn they were 15 years removed from flags in 71, 76, 78, 83, 86,88 and 91.
When Hardwick took over Richmond they made finals in 1982, 1995 and 2001. Hes coached Richmond 5 less seasons for one less flag, he started 2010 0-9 50% and worse than Fitzroy.
It's really a no contest for me, Clarkson is better cause he's got more premierships but if Hardwicks wins a fourth, he's passed his mentor.
- Jul 22, 2016
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His 25% winning record in finals takes a huge gloss off imo
I think it's good to judge coaches by what they've done with poor lists and what they've done with good lists.
Clarkson squeezed a premiership out of a relatively ordinary 2008 list, then built up the threepeat team. Hardwick has probably matched the three-peat feat, but not the 2008 success Clarkson somehow had.
Clarkson's star appears to be falling though. The club is in pretty dire straits list-wise and a lot of that would be down to decisions Clarkson has made or been heavily involved in.
Hardwick has had his up period and it will likely continue for at least a couple more years, but it's important to judge coaches by what they do with an ordinary list (or at least how they stop their list becoming ordinary). He's really only coached this one list which was built on Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt and a really strong backline who have basically been there longer or as long as Hardwick.
Worsfold lost standing by how ordinary his stint at Essendon was.
Some coaches might be great with good lists but ordinary with bad lists. Others might be good at developing young players, but not great at translating that into premierships.
Brendan McCartney might be the greatest coach of all time for developing lists but never be any good at winning a premiership.
Clarkson squeezed a premiership out of a relatively ordinary 2008 list, then built up the threepeat team. Hardwick has probably matched the three-peat feat, but not the 2008 success Clarkson somehow had.
Clarkson's star appears to be falling though. The club is in pretty dire straits list-wise and a lot of that would be down to decisions Clarkson has made or been heavily involved in.
Hardwick has had his up period and it will likely continue for at least a couple more years, but it's important to judge coaches by what they do with an ordinary list (or at least how they stop their list becoming ordinary). He's really only coached this one list which was built on Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt and a really strong backline who have basically been there longer or as long as Hardwick.
Worsfold lost standing by how ordinary his stint at Essendon was.
Some coaches might be great with good lists but ordinary with bad lists. Others might be good at developing young players, but not great at translating that into premierships.
Brendan McCartney might be the greatest coach of all time for developing lists but never be any good at winning a premiership.
How do you pass your mentor when your mentor has been mentoring you even after you left the club?
Clarkson also radically changed the game. Hardwick is playing a different version of the zone clarko invented.
Beveridge, Simpson, Hardwick. Fagan, Ratten have all been assistant coaches at Hawthorn, have I missed anyone?
Good on you for being above that . Just see that as a comment meant for other oppo fans then
Clarkson loses to a previously winless side deep into the season for the second year in a row.
Hasn't won a final since 2015.
Will be missing finals for the third year in a row in 2021.
Team performances still to bottom out.
Has overseen a series of disastrous trades.
But let me guess... 4 flags > 3 flags.
Hasn't won a final since 2015.
Will be missing finals for the third year in a row in 2021.
Team performances still to bottom out.
Has overseen a series of disastrous trades.
But let me guess... 4 flags > 3 flags.
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