Coach Is Hardwick now the second best coach in the league behind Clarkson?

[PhatBoy]

If you think a goal kicking forward doesnt know where to aim at his home ground given weather conditions better than he does away - then youve never looked at h v a goal kicking stats.

You’re talking to a fan of a team who’s current spearhead and third best key forward in 120 years has a better record away than he does at home.

 

[RichLeMonde]

You were hubbed - you werent flying interstate every second week.

Weve seen what happens when your lot fly interstate.

We flew to Adelaide fir the prelim then back to Brisbane fir the GF.

you make probably the most inane arguments I’ve come across on BF

 

[BF Tiger]

Wasnt magic

Was a team that had hardened over a period of years.

in 2017/18 they were soft as butter away from home - in 19 they got better - in 20 they were better still.

Winning away from home is really difficult.

Thats why its called home ground advantage.

Just yes or no... do you think, given the dominance after quarter time and the eight goal final margin, that the 2017 grand final result would have been different if played at the Adelaide Oval?

And who, in your opinion, is currently the best coach in the league?

 

[Noidnadroj]

Well yeah

because you only play 5 games interstate.

if you played 10 like us and lost 4/5 you would have been lucky to scrape into the 8

Tell me this. In 2018 with Richmond 2 games clear on top and Eagles second, what did the first 2 finals for each team deliver?

Eagles: Home final v Pies. Home final v Demons.

Tigers: Neutral final v Hawks. Neutral final v Pies.

So yes, the Tigers would have had an advantage in the GF, but it was immeasurably easier for the Eagles to get there with a massive home ground advantage in the lead up finals the Tigers didn’t get… do you agree with that?

Everyone focusses on the GF at the MCG, but history is littered with non-Vic teams getting home ground advantages in lead up finals Victorian clubs often don’t get.

Geelong v Port in 2007: Cats at MCG against Roos and Pies, Port home ground fortress lead-in finals.

2013: Hawks prelim v Cats (neutral), Freo at home v Swans.

The list goes on …..

But hey, no-one provides any balance to the debate as it’s always focused on just the MCG GF.

I’d rather Home Final, Home Final, MCG…. Over Neutral, Neutral, MCG any day. Probably explains why non-Vic teams make the GF more often than their ratio says they should.


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[Noidnadroj]

You were hubbed - you werent flying interstate every second week.

Weve seen what happens when your lot fly interstate.

Yeah, we win a QF by 8-goals v Brisbane (2019) and a Prelim final v top of the ladder Port…. Then fly back to Brisbane and wins GF.

So yes, we have seen what happens … and it’s a thing of beauty.


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[Noidnadroj]

Wasnt magic

Was a team that had hardened over a period of years.

in 2017/18 they were soft as butter away from home - in 19 they got better - in 20 they were better still.

Winning away from home is really difficult.

Thats why its called home ground advantage.

So you accept Eagles often have a huge advantage over Victorian teams in lead-in finals? Eg 2018 when Eagles had 2 home ground finals and Tigers had 2 neutral finals …Correct ?


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[Swanks McSwankserton]

Probably explains why non-Vic teams make the GF more often than their ratio says they should.

Pretty sure they're ever so slightly behind on this actually, but an interstate v interstate gf this yr would balance the ledger again.

 

[Back One Out]

Clarkson's star is fading now that he's without a stack of draft pick concessions which the hawks built their list from.

What "stack" of draft pick concessions? Do you mean the two freebies we received in 2004-05?
Lance Franklin and Beau Dowler... Neither player was on Hawthorn's list when Clarkson won the 2014 and 2015 premierships.
Dowler played a handful of games. So it was just Buddy and then we lost him after 2013 to our main flag rivals

It was mainly through trades which Clarkson's premiership teams were built around.
- Players for picks: Hodge, S.Mitchell, J.Lewis, Birchall
- Picks for players: Croad, Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake, Gunston, Hale, McEvoy

The Hawks did pretty well in all methods of recruiting: trades, early draft picks, late draft picks, the rookie list. I think that was the key. It all came together: stable admin, good recruiting, good support staff, excellent assistant coaches and single-minded Clarkson ruling with an iron fist and keeping a tight lid on everything. His teams have always been very disciplined, even the bad teams.


FWIW, Hawthorn have received way fewer top 5 and top 10 picks than many other clubs over the years

year...... H&A....... Position
2000... 12-0-10... 6/16...
2001... 13-0-9..... 4/16...
2002... 11-0-11.. 10/16... Pick 8 (Luke Brennan)
2003... 12-0-10.... 9/16... Pick 10 (traded)
2004.. 4-0-18.. 15/16... Pick 2 (Jarryd Roughead), Pick 5 (Buddy Franklin)
2005.. 5-0-17.. 14/16... Pick 3 (Xavier Ellis), Pick 6 (Beau Dowler)
2006... 9-0-13.... 11/16... Pick 6 (Mitch Thorpe)
2007... 13-0-9..... 9/16...
2008... 17-0-5..... 1/16...
2009... 9-0-13..... 2/16... Pick 9 (traded)
2010... 12-1-9..... 2/16...
2011... 17-0-5..... 7/17...
2012... 17-0-5..... 2/18...
2013... 19-0-3..... 1/18...
2014... 17-0-5..... 1/18...
2015... 16-0-6..... 1/18...
2016... 17-0-5..... 5/18...
2017... 10-1-11.. 11/18.. Pick 7 (traded)
2018... 15-0-7..... 5/18...
2019... 11-0-11... 9/18...
2020.. 5-0-12.. 15/18... Pick 6 (Denver Grainger-Barrass)


^^ Compare this to all the Top 5 & Top 10 picks that Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood, Melbourne, Bulldogs, St Kilda, Richmond, North, West Coast, Port Adelaide, Brisbane, GWS and Gold Coast have been gifted over the journey.


Clarkson hasn't lost his ability to coach. He still won 4 premierships which is more than anyone else in the AFL-era. It's only the clueless idiots who expect coaches to be miracle workers and wave their magic wands or "reach into their bags of tricks".

His "star" might be fading due to all the personnel decisions made from 2009-2017. He traded so many of our 1st round & 2nd round picks and this has left the current squad seriously short of talent. You could argue things were badly managed. But it's also true to say things were managed superbly for a number of years and we won a hat trick of flags from 2013-2015.

People are conveniently forgetting all this as they now line up to take pot-shots at Clarko and second-guess his every decision. So he gambled on winning one more flag with his ageing senior group + Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard, but it didn't pay off... Oh well... Too bad... So now it's time to rebuild... Big deal.

Everyone knows players make coaches. The great coaches have the ability to mould a good group of players into a great team. Clarkson has proved he can do that over and over and over. I still don't think he got enough credit for what he accomplished in 2018 with an ordinary list. Amazing coaching performance. But when the Hawks got booted from the finals in straights sets, all the experts nodded wisely and said "I told you so"... The very same experts who had us finishing second last in their pre-season predictions and even had us finishing 9th with just a few weeks remaining. (Hawks were 4th after the Home & away games.)

Even this year... We are trash. Just as bad as North. But we've been pretty competitive in most games. We've only had our arses kicked twice (vs Melb, StK)
We were handled comfortably by Richmond and West Coast, but the team fought those games out.

 

[Saint]

What "stack" of draft pick concessions? Do you mean the two freebies we received in 2004-05?
Lance Franklin and Beau Dowler... Neither player was on Hawthorn's list when Clarkson won the 2014 and 2015 premierships.
Dowler played a handful of games. So it was just Buddy and then we lost him after 2013 to our main flag rivals

It was mainly through trades which Clarkson's premiership teams were built around.
- Players for picks: Hodge, S.Mitchell, J.Lewis, Birchall
- Picks for players: Croad, Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake, Gunston, Hale, McEvoy

The Hawks did pretty well in all methods of recruiting: trades, early draft picks, late draft picks, the rookie list. I think that was the key. It all came together: stable admin, good recruiting, good support staff, excellent assistant coaches and single-minded Clarkson ruling with an iron fist and keeping a tight lid on everything. His teams have always been very disciplined, even the bad teams.


FWIW, Hawthorn have received way fewer top 5 and top 10 picks than many other clubs over the years

year...... H&A....... Position
2000... 12-0-10... 6/16...
2001... 13-0-9..... 4/16...
2002... 11-0-11.. 10/16... Pick 8 (Luke Brennan)
2003... 12-0-10.... 9/16... Pick 10 (traded)
2004.. 4-0-18.. 15/16... Pick 2 (Jarryd Roughead), Pick 5 (Buddy Franklin)
2005.. 5-0-17.. 14/16... Pick 3 (Xavier Ellis), Pick 6 (Beau Dowler)
2006... 9-0-13.... 11/16... Pick 6 (Mitch Thorpe)
2007... 13-0-9..... 9/16...
2008... 17-0-5..... 1/16...
2009... 9-0-13..... 2/16... Pick 9 (traded)
2010... 12-1-9..... 2/16...
2011... 17-0-5..... 7/17...
2012... 17-0-5..... 2/18...
2013... 19-0-3..... 1/18...
2014... 17-0-5..... 1/18...
2015... 16-0-6..... 1/18...
2016... 17-0-5..... 5/18...
2017... 10-1-11.. 11/18.. Pick 7 (traded)
2018... 15-0-7..... 5/18...
2019... 11-0-11... 9/18...
2020.. 5-0-12.. 15/18... Pick 6 (Denver Grainger-Barrass)


^^ Compare this to all the Top 5 & Top 10 picks that Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood, Melbourne, Bulldogs, St Kilda, Richmond, North, West Coast, Port Adelaide, Brisbane, GWS and Gold Coast have been gifted over the journey.


Clarkson hasn't lost his ability to coach. He still won 4 premierships which is more than anyone else in the AFL-era. It's only the clueless idiots who expect coaches to be miracle workers and wave their magic wands or "reach into their bags of tricks".

His "star" might be fading due to all the personnel decisions made from 2009-2017. He traded so many of our 1st round & 2nd round picks and this has left the current squad seriously short of talent. You could argue things were badly managed. But it's also true to say things were managed superbly for a number of years and we won a hat trick of flags from 2013-2015.

People are conveniently forgetting all this as they now line up to take pot-shots at Clarko and second-guess his every decision. So he gambled on winning one more flag with his ageing senior group + Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard, but it didn't pay off... Oh well... Too bad... So now it's time to rebuild... Big deal.

Everyone knows players make coaches. The great coaches have the ability to mould a good group of players into a great team. Clarkson has proved he can do that over and over and over. I still don't think he got enough credit for what he accomplished in 2018 with an ordinary list. Amazing coaching performance. But when the Hawks got booted from the finals in straights sets, all the experts nodded wisely and said "I told you so"... The very same experts who had us finishing second last in their pre-season predictions and even had us finishing 9th with just a few weeks remaining. (Hawks were 4th after the Home & away games.)

Even this year... We are trash. Just as bad as North. But we've been pretty competitive in most games. We've only had our arses kicked twice (vs Melb, StK)
We were handled comfortably by Richmond and West Coast, but the team fought those games out.

Number of priority draft picks due to poor performance:
Carlton - 3
Melbourne - 3 (13 years apart)
Hawthorn - 2* (plus Hodge traded for Croad by a desperate Fremantle who also got a 2nd and 3rd round pick)
St Kilda - 2
Bulldogs - 2

1 - Richmond, West Coast, Freo*, Gold Coast

So Hawthorn did as well as anyone other than Carlton and Melbourne out of priority picks.

I'm not denying there were lots of things the Hawks did well during that era, but they benefitted from some regulatory change (from 2006 they tightened the priority pick rules) as well as two new clubs coming into the competition and sucking up all the young talent which otherwise would have gone to clubs more likely to be able to challenge Hawthorn.

You can always tell whether somebody is truly great by not only what they do with a good list, but what they do with a bad list and so far, Clarkson hasn't done very well and it looks worse because for the last 3 years people have been pointing out that the list is going down the toilet and Clarkson was recruiting mature-age players like they were still top 4 material.

If anything, finishing top 4 in 2018 with an ageing list (the year Tom Mitchell won the Brownlow, so not sure you'd call the list "ordinary"), has probably been the direct catalyst for how bad the list is looking now. They were only 3 games above 12th that year, from 2nd to 12th was very close.

 

[kranky al]

And its worth no more than two goals per game - which flips exactly zero of our finals wins in the last 4 years.

Explain the difference between richmond cvs adelaide at adelaide

76 point loss 2017 - 36 point loss 2018

average l

and then richmond vs adelaide at mcg

48 point win

2 goals ya reckon eh?

 

[kranky al]

So you accept Eagles often have a huge advantage over Victorian teams in lead-in finals? Eg 2018 when Eagles had 2 home ground finals and Tigers had 2 neutral finals …Correct ?


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If we finish higher - we get better chances of home finals - winning home finals means winning games away in the season.

2018 richmond came top 4 whilst winning 1/5 games interstate

we wouldnt be playing finals with that record

 

[kranky al]

Yeah, we win a QF by 8-goals v Brisbane (2019) and a Prelim final v top of the ladder Port…. Then fly back to Brisbane and wins GF.

So yes, we have seen what happens … and it’s a thing of beauty.


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Equating 2020 richmond with 2017 richmond is bullshit.

2020 was a battle hardened far better team than 2017. 2020 richmond won everywhere - 2017 richmond couldnt beat bottom teams like wb and stk at marvel let alone interstate.

in 2017 richmond beat the bottom 5 and port away from the mcg

2018 eagles beat top 8 teams on the road and won a flag - 2019 didnt and couldnt. Different year.

 

[HTT]

Explain the difference between richmond cvs adelaide at adelaide

76 point loss 2017 - 36 point loss 2018

average l

and then richmond vs adelaide at mcg

48 point win

2 goals ya reckon eh?

R8 2017 MCG Richmond 10.10 (70) def. by Fremantle 10.12 (72)
R22 2017 Subiaco Richmond 25.5 (155) def Fremantle 7.9 (51)

So which explanation is it
A) Richmond get an even bigger HGA advantage at Subiaco than the MCG
B) Richmond were better late in 2017 than early in 2017

 

[kranky al]

You’re talking to a fan of a team who’s current spearhead and third best key forward in 120 years has a better record away than he does at home.

 

[kranky al]

R8 2017 MCG Richmond 10.10 (70) def. by Fremantle 10.12 (72)
R22 2017 Subiaco Richmond 25.5 (155) def Fremantle 7.9 (51)

So which explanation is it
A) Richmond get an even bigger HGA advantage at Subiaco than the MCG
B) Richmond were better late in 2017 than early in 2017

You mean like when they lost against geelong at geelong

but got to play higher placed geelong at the mcg in a final a few weeks later and won

 

[BF Tiger]

Explain the difference between richmond cvs adelaide at adelaide

76 point loss 2017 - 36 point loss 2018

average l

and then richmond vs adelaide at mcg

48 point win

2 goals ya reckon eh?

Because the result of each game is actually independent of the previous game. Because different players were involved. Because different tactics were employed. Because different workloads were had. Because we were on a six day break and Adelaide were on an eight day break (2017). Becausee Adelaide play more at the MCG than we do at Adelaide Oval.

Give it up Salty Al.

 

[BF Tiger]

You mean like when they lost against geelong at geelong

but got to play higher placed geelong at the mcg in a final a few weeks later and won

You think the MCG, where Geelong had played 11 times previously across 2016/17 and 23 times from the start of 2014, is worth a 65 point turnaround in less than a month?

Give it up Salty Al.

 

[HTT]

You mean like when they lost against geelong at geelong

but got to play higher placed geelong at the mcg in a final a few weeks later and won

It’s almost like performances can vary on any given day.
In the last 4 seasons Richmond has played away and beaten top 4 teams twice.
Both wins were in finals. Richmond wins away when needed.

 

[kranky al]

It’s almost like performances can vary on any given day.
In the last 4 seasons Richmond has played away and beaten top 4 teams twice.
Both wins were in finals. Richmond wins away when needed.

Heres 2016,2017,2018.


But lets analyse richmond away from the mcg in its entirety shall we :

2016

Lost to crows at etihad by 36
Lost to eagles at subi by 68
Beat dockers at subi by 38
Lost to roos at blundstone by 74
Lost to power in adelaide by 38
Lost to dogs in etihad by 10
Lost to giants in manuka by 88
Lost to swans in sydney by 113

2017

18th - Beat brisbane at the gabba by 52
1st - Lost to adelaide at ao by 76
10th - Lost to the dogs at etihad by 5
4th - Lost to gws by 3 at spotless
15th - Beat roos by 35 at etihad
5th - Beat port by 13 at ao
11th - Lost by 67 to saints at etihad
18th - Beat brisbane at etihad by 31
17th - Beat gc by 33 at metricon
2nd - Lost to geelong by 14 at skilled
14th - Beat freo by 104 at subi

2018

12th Lost to adelaide at ao by 36
9th beat kangaroos at marvel by 10
2nd lost to eagles at optus by 47
10th lost to port at ao by 14
7th lost to giants at showgrounds by 2
16th beat saints by 44 at etihad
18th beat suns at metricon by 74

 

[kranky al]

You think the MCG, where Geelong had played 11 times previously across 2016/17 and 23 times from the start of 2014, is worth a 65 point turnaround in less than a month?

Give it up Salty Al.

No i think richmond were superstars at home and garbage away.


But lets analyse richmond away from the mcg in its entirety shall we :

2016

Lost to crows at etihad by 36
Lost to eagles at subi by 68
Beat dockers at subi by 38
Lost to roos at blundstone by 74
Lost to power in adelaide by 38
Lost to dogs in etihad by 10
Lost to giants in manuka by 88
Lost to swans in sydney by 113

2017

18th - Beat brisbane at the gabba by 52
1st - Lost to adelaide at ao by 76
10th - Lost to the dogs at etihad by 5
4th - Lost to gws by 3 at spotless
15th - Beat roos by 35 at etihad
5th - Beat port by 13 at ao
11th - Lost by 67 to saints at etihad
18th - Beat brisbane at etihad by 31
17th - Beat gc by 33 at metricon
2nd - Lost to geelong by 14 at skilled
14th - Beat freo by 104 at subi

2018

12th Lost to adelaide at ao by 36
9th beat kangaroos at marvel by 10
2nd lost to eagles at optus by 47
10th lost to port at ao by 14
7th lost to giants at showgrounds by 2
16th beat saints by 44 at etihad
18th beat suns at metricon by 74

 

[master bate]

People are conveniently forgetting all this as they now line up to take pot-shots at Clarko and second-guess his every decision. So he gambled on winning one more flag with his ageing senior group + Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard, but it didn't pay off... Oh well... Too bad... So now it's time to rebuild... Big deal.

Everyone knows players make coaches. The great coaches have the ability to mould a good group of players into a great team. Clarkson has proved he can do that over and over and over. I still don't think he got enough credit for what he accomplished in 2018 with an ordinary list. Amazing coaching performance. But when the Hawks got booted from the finals in straights sets, all the experts nodded wisely and said "I told you so"... The very same experts who had us finishing second last in their pre-season predictions and even had us finishing 9th with just a few weeks remaining. (Hawks were 4th after the Home & away games.)

The senior coach directs the list management though, or at least they should, especially after 4 flags.

And Clarko has spoken negatively about the draft, when the draft was the key reason for the 4 flags. That doesn't make any sense to me. Forget whether there were priority picks or any other factors it was Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell, Franklin, Roughead, Rioli, Birchall that set Hawthorn up. That's what made them a destination club to then retool the list with Gibson, Lake, Hale, Burgoyne etc. And even in those years it was recruiting Hill and Smith to cover other holes.

Apart from the big spend ups on O'Meara and Wingard the list has also been packed for a retreads. Scully, Patton, Brooksby, Hartley, Minchington, Tim Mohr. A couple of years of David Mirra for some reason.

And you say big deal --- well what should've started after 2016 or 2017 took until after 2019 or really 2020. That might be a big deal if it costs Clarkson his job because Jeff is impatient.

They Swans academy certainly helps but the Swans appear to have called it in 2019 and have freshened up their list. Longmire had no questions about his future (apart from North throwing him cash) in 2019/2020 and now they're back likely playing finals.

 

[HTT]

Heres 2016,2017,2018.


But lets analyse richmond away from the mcg in its entirety shall we :

2016

Lost to crows at etihad by 36
Lost to eagles at subi by 68
Beat dockers at subi by 38
Lost to roos at blundstone by 74
Lost to power in adelaide by 38
Lost to dogs in etihad by 10
Lost to giants in manuka by 88
Lost to swans in sydney by 113

2017

18th - Beat brisbane at the gabba by 52
1st - Lost to adelaide at ao by 76
10th - Lost to the dogs at etihad by 5
4th - Lost to gws by 3 at spotless
15th - Beat roos by 35 at etihad
5th - Beat port by 13 at ao
11th - Lost by 67 to saints at etihad
18th - Beat brisbane at etihad by 31
17th - Beat gc by 33 at metricon
2nd - Lost to geelong by 14 at skilled
14th - Beat freo by 104 at subi

2018

12th Lost to adelaide at ao by 36
9th beat kangaroos at marvel by 10
2nd lost to eagles at optus by 47
10th lost to port at ao by 14
7th lost to giants at showgrounds by 2
16th beat saints by 44 at etihad
18th beat suns at metricon by 74

Richmond 2016 are about as closely related to Richmond 2017 as Richmond 2006 is.

 

[PhatBoy]

View attachment 1132265

His goal average in home and away football is identical - 2.3 - and he’s more accurate away from
Home.
Keep going though.

 

[Noidnadroj]

If we finish higher - we get better chances of home finals - winning home finals means winning games away in the season.

2018 richmond came top 4 whilst winning 1/5 games interstate

we wouldnt be playing finals with that record

You’ve avoided the question….again. In 2018 did the Eagles have a QF and Prelim final advantage compared to Richmond thanks to getting 2 home finals pre-GF whilst Richmond had 2 neutral finals? A yes or no will do.


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[Noidnadroj]

You mean like when they lost against geelong at geelong

but got to play higher placed geelong at the mcg in a final a few weeks later and won

Is that the final we won by 51-points with a leg in the air ….?


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