Coach Is Hardwick now the second best coach in the league behind Clarkson?

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00Stinger

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Four flags actually, and I recognise that he is a great coach. But was Sheedy still the greatest after four flags in his last few years at Essendon... or GWS. Was Hafey still the greatest at Collingwood, Geelong and Sydney?

Just don’t think historical flag count is the be all and end all. His first flag is over a decade ago and the three-peat is not even in the rear view mirror any more.
I agree with the principle of what you are saying but if both coaches were on the market it would be Clarkson who is more sought after.

That could change though

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Lsta062

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Hardwick has coached Richmond to finals the last 6 out of 7 seasons, a consistency which hasn’t been a part of Richmond for about 37 years. Yes he inherited star players, but remember how he was able to retain those star players even when the club was regularly getting thrashed.

He built a successful culture when our culture was failure. To top it off, he’s now a 2-time Premiership coach after a decade.

He’s easily the second best senior coach in the league behind Clarkson IMO. He cares about his connection with the players (buys them gifts and leaves it at their lockers every week, writes them personalised letters etc.) and this makes them not only want to stay at the club, but succeed on the field as one. He’s built a game plan (alongside his assistant coaches) that is very hard to counter and very hard to emulate.
 

BF Tiger

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I agree with the principle of what you are saying but if both coaches were on the market it would be Clarkson who is more sought after.

That could change though

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I agree that Clarko would be more sought after. Im not dissing Clarko, but just asking when does his reputation begin to not get him by.

He hasn’t won a final in four years, how long can that go on? What if it gets to six years? Will we still be hearing ”yeah, but 4 flags, yeah, but 3-peat”?
 

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Kwality

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Where was best ever mentioned? I know where the delusion lies.
Posts have a context & I apologise for suggesting 'best ever', my intention was to expose the crazed Eagles fans of this time last year bathing in the joy of a flag
This year its Tigers fans having the gall & the belief in excuses needed to even compare Dimma with Clarko.
Was Dimma ahead of Simmo this time last year, was Scotty in front of both of them? Dimma nudges ahead courtesy of the 2019 flag & crazed Tiges fans start to compare him to Clarko.
 

BF Tiger

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Posts have a context & I apologise for suggesting 'best ever', my intention was to expose the crazed Eagles fans of this time last year bathing in the joy of a flag
This year its Tigers fans having the gall & the belief in excuses needed to even compare Dimma with Clarko.
Was Dimma ahead of Simmo this time last year, was Scotty in front of both of them? Dimma nudges ahead courtesy of the 2019 flag & crazed Tiges fans start to compare him to Clarko.
Dimma nudges ahead of Simmo, but only marginally. I have both ahead of Clarko right now. I give greater weight to recent success determining who is the best at the present point in time. You give greater weight to history.

Clarko and Hawthorn shoot up the ladder next year while Hardwick and Simpson fall... I re-assess and say that maybe Clarko was the best in 2019 still, I just needed to see more evidence.
 

Kwality

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I agree that Clarko would be more sought after. Im not dissing Clarko, but just asking when does his reputation begin to not get him by.

He hasn’t won a final in four years, how long can that go on? What if it gets to six years? Will we still be hearing ”yeah, but 4 flags, yeah, but 3-peat”?
Last flag 2015 for Clarko, how long did it take for Hardwick to get a flag, 1 + 1 gives you a minimum starting point.
Did you ask the same question of Hardwick after the period.

Coaching reputation as measured by the media is 'sus'.

The 3 peat: you actually have to play in back to back GFs to do that, Hardwick failed that test in 2018, as did Simmo in 2019. Watch for the back to back tryhards ....
 

Kwality

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Dimma nudges ahead of Simmo, but only marginally. I have both ahead of Clarko right now. I give greater weight to recent success determining who is the best at the present point in time. You give greater weight to history.

Clarko and Hawthorn shoot up the ladder next year while Hardwick and Simpson fall... I re-assess and say that maybe Clarko was the best in 2019 still, I just needed to see more evidence.
I could not disagree more.
Flags are won by so much more than the coach & the best without the cattle doesnt win a flag.

You need very recent to mount a case for Dimma. Should Simmo win next year does he jump back ahead of Hardwick? No matter neither have the results to be reasonably classified the equal of Clarko.
 

BF Tiger

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Last flag 2015 for Clarko, how long did it take for Hardwick to get a flag, 1 + 1 gives you a minimum starting point.
Did you ask the same question of Hardwick after the period.

Coaching reputation as measured by the media is 'sus'.

The 3 peat: you actually have to play in back to back GFs to do that, Hardwick failed that test in 2018, as did Simmo in 2019. Watch for the back to back tryhards ....
I agree B2B and then three-peat raised Clarko’s stock, but how did it rise over that time and fall since?

I want to describe it as some sort of mathematical function. Maybe it’s exponential. Clarko gets a point for 13, 2 point for 14 and 4 points for 15. Ends the three-peat (2015) with 7 points. End of 16 he has 3.5 points, 17 he has 1.75 points, end of 18 he has 0.87 points. Sits roughly equal with Simpson, Dimma is on 0.5 points and Bevo on 0.25.

2019: DH gets a point, moves to 1.5, AS drops to 0.5 and AC on 0.44.

2020: AS wins moves to 1.5 and is best present day coach, ahead of DH (0.75) and AC (0.22).
AC wins moves to 1.44 and is best present day coach, ahead of DH (0.75) and AS (0.25).
DH wins and he is clear best coach in the league.

Disclaimer: I’m away camping/still celebrating and a few beers in at the moment. I might have my maths terminology wrong and the multiplication factors not quite right but I hope I have got my “concept” across.
 

BF Tiger

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I could not disagree more.
Flags are won by so much more than the coach & the best without the cattle doesnt win a flag.

You need very recent to mount a case for Dimma. Should Simmo win next year does he jump back ahead of Hardwick? No matter neither have the results to be reasonably classified the equal of Clarko.
I’m not talking the equal in terms of achievement. I’m talking about who is coaching the best right now. Coaches burn-out, lose desire, get left behind and stuck in old ways ad the game evolves.

I agree whole-heartedly that Clarko has so much more in achievement than any other present day coach, but at the moment I just don’t think he is the best.
 

Kwality

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I agree B2B and then three-peat raised Clarko’s stock, but how did it rise over that time and fall since?

I want to describe it as some sort of mathematical function. Maybe it’s exponential. Clarko gets a point for 13, 2 point for 14 and 4 points for 15. Ends the three-peat (2015) with 7 points. End of 16 he has 3.5 points, 17 he has 1.75 points, end of 18 he has 0.87 points. Sits roughly equal with Simpson, Dimma is on 0.5 points and Bevo on 0.25.

2019: DH gets a point, moves to 1.5, AS drops to 0.5 and AC on 0.44.

2020: AS wins moves to 1.5 and is best present day coach, ahead of DH (0.75) and AC (0.22).
AC wins moves to 1.44 and is best present day coach, ahead of DH (0.75) and AS (0.25).
DH wins and he is clear best coach in the league.

Disclaimer: I’m away camping/still celebrating and a few beers in at the moment. I might have my maths terminology wrong and the multiplication factors not quite right but I hope I have got my “concept” across.
Need a couple of extra beans for your abacus, even then 1+1 = whatever you want it to be.
 

Coaster2012

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Hardwick & Simpson. Simpson has played in 2 GF's since taking the reigns from a club who were 13th with the 2nd best win/loss ratio in the comp since he took it.
 

Whiskers

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Clarko is on his third rebuild, with flags in each build.
One of them is a 3-peat, and damn close to a 4-peat, + 1 prelim.

During that rebuild he lost one of the best players of all time.

If he wins a flag in this next iteration, end of discussion.
Edit : But really, until they both retire... how do we actually know.
He was closer to never going b2b ‘14 prelim than winning 4 in a row.
A single kick decides a 3 peat or not even B2B. Far too much emphasis on the end result imo.
Is Clarkson a worse coach if the umpires make a different decision or Port find a goal through skill?

Hardwick imo is already better. I don’t need Harry hindsight or an extra flag to tell me this. I can see it already.

People will judge talent/skill based on flags and individual awards and nothing more.
I find that ridiculous as you could get someone who has never even seen a sherrin before able to judge who is the best based on that alone.

I prefer to use my eyes.
Premierships/awards can often reflect how good a team or someone is but it doesn’t always tell the right story.
 
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