Prediction Is it a weakness to rely on your Ruckman being in your top 3?

[telsor]

6-6-6 is not for around the ground and by the way every team had numbers behind the ball at centre bounces, and no it won't make it more frequent because when the ruck grabs it he still has to dispose of it, a tap still is the best way of hitting a teammate.

People are over thinking this, nothing is going to change. It's still 4 v 4 in the middle and more often than not the ball goes to ground ruck or pinch hitter.

Well, Our coaching staff are clearly among those who are 'over thinking it', and I dare say they have a much better idea than either of us as to how it's likely to play out.

 

[Tiger Toffee]

Well, Our coaching staff are clearly among those who are 'over thinking it', and I dare say they have a much better idea than either of us as to how it's likely to play out.

I betcha all clubs will trial it in JLT and when they see that nothing is going to change they will all revert to what they had in the past, ruckman are just not going to be able to grab the ball and do as they please. Think about this, with Grigg in the ruck we were still 3rd best for centre clearances.

All 6-6-6 does is even up each end of the ground, nothing changes in the centre. We won't play two rucks in season proper.

Question for you, if Soldo or anyone else came in as second ruck, who's spot are they taking and then think if that is the best option for the team because you are removing a better player for the sole purpose of giving Nank a rest for 20% of the game.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Having it official will make it more frequent and pushed further. We won with a pinch hitter by having players behind the ball...doesn't work so well with 666.

So 2 rule changes, both of which significantly increase the importance of the ruck.

Yes the importance of a good ruckman has now been increased with these rule changes...
But it also brings issues with it...
Sole good ruckman increases the risk of burn out and injury for such a long playing season then add finals!
Team balance is possibly compromised with the strategy of a second relieving ruckman...
Speed v High marking around the ground...
Speed v stoppages control around the ground with a good tap ruckman...
For every strategy action applied there is a countering reaction...
It's very interesting!
Coaching staff are going to earn their money this year...

 

[Dr Tigris]

Yes the importance of a good ruckman has now been increased with these rule changes...
But it also brings issues with it...
Sole good ruckman increases the risk of burn out and injury for such a long playing season then add finals!
Team balance is possibly compromised with the strategy of a second relieving ruckman...
Speed v High marking around the ground...
Speed v stoppages control around the ground with a good tap ruckman...
For every strategy action applied there is a countering reaction...
It's very interesting!
Coaching staff are going to earn their money this year...

Absolutely.

One day I am convinced that we need a second ruck. The next I'm convinced we don't.

666 might make a significant difference, or it might not. Good arguments both ways. Same with the new ruck rule. Combined they could open up ruck duals or make stuff all difference. We'll only know in about 5 months when it's all worked out.

 

[telsor]

I betcha all clubs will trial it in JLT and when they see that nothing is going to change they will all revert to what they had in the past, ruckman are just not going to be able to grab the ball and do as they please. Think about this, with Grigg in the ruck we were still 3rd best for centre clearances.

All 6-6-6 does is even up each end of the ground, nothing changes in the centre. We won't play two rucks in season proper.

Question for you, if Soldo or anyone else came in as second ruck, who's spot are they taking and then think if that is the best option for the team because you are removing a better player for the sole purpose of giving Nank a rest for 20% of the game.

If you brought Soldo in, he'd be the no1 ruckman...Taking most of the actual ruckwork (he's better at tapwork), Nank would be more for around the ground.

As for your question...I suppose it comes down to how much damage the coaches think will be done during that 20% of the time.
How we were last year wont be relevant...center clearances without Lambert coming in from the backline wont be as effective (to give one example of change) and there is a matter of quality of clearances. Ours were mostly scrappy/slower (having been gained from a losing ruck), while oppositions were cleaner and quicker, which is a big deal when you don't have an extra defender.

 

[Tiger Toffee]

If you brought Soldo in, he'd be the no1 ruckman...Taking most of the actual ruckwork (he's better at tapwork), Nank would be more for around the ground.

As for your question...I suppose it comes down to how much damage the coaches think will be done during that 20% of the time.
How we were last year wont be relevant...center clearances without Lambert coming in from the backline wont be as effective (to give one example of change) and there is a matter of quality of clearances. Ours were mostly scrappy/slower (having been gained from a losing ruck), while oppositions were cleaner and quicker, which is a big deal when you don't have an extra defender.

As with all things yet to be played it is a wait and see, but one must remember every club had numbers behind the ball at centre bounces. I don't know about the oppo's being cleaner and quicker TBH because most centre bounce ruck duels the ball ends up on the turf, got any numbers to show me because i can't find any scores or marks inside 50 from centre clearances to save myself.

 

[telsor]

As with all things yet to be played it is a wait and see, but one must remember every club had numbers behind the ball at centre bounces. I don't know about the oppo's being cleaner and quicker TBH because most centre bounce ruck duels the ball ends up on the turf, got any numbers to show me because i can't find any scores or marks inside 50 from centre clearances to save myself.

No stat, more observation and reputation....Why do you think people think we've poor for clearances? We might get the stat for being the team that takes it out of the center square, but that was usually after the ball went to ground and the numbers had arrived. The clear clearances (the ones people notice and remember for clearances) are the ones that matter for this case however.

Personally though, I'm happy to put my trust in the coaches, and the fact that they seem to be worried about it (from Leppa's comments) has me thinking change is going to happen (or at least be tried).

 

[Tiger Toffee]

No stat, more observation and reputation....Why do you think people think we've poor for clearances? We might get the stat for being the team that takes it out of the center square, but that was usually after the ball went to ground and the numbers had arrived. The clear clearances (the ones people notice and remember for clearances) are the ones that matter for this case however.

Personally though, I'm happy to put my trust in the coaches, and the fact that they seem to be worried about it (from Leppa's comments) has me thinking change is going to happen (or at least be tried).

I just don't things are as bad as people make out, as for clean clearances there is what 2 or 3 a match both sides combined. People think we're poor for centre clearances because of our ground stoppages so they naturally think we are s**t in the guts as well.

If we had a spare of the back of the square, the opposing side also had one of their own down the other end, the way people are carrying on about us needing to deal with not having a spare you would think we were the only side who has ever done this when in actual fact every single side ran a spare down back at every single centre bounce, so aren't they also needing to change how they approach the centre square. Why is it only Richmond is going to struggle.

 

[Cdog71]

How often was Sandilands beaten in the Ruck?
It doesn’t follow..
A tap Ruckman = Clearances or
666 set up = a scoring opportunity.

I hope they throw a few ideas around, you have to keep evolving but I reckon we are still the side with the most difficult game plan to deal with and it’s not just about Clearances or just about the Grigg strategy.
Hows our spine now..
Rance
Astbury
Martin
Reiwoldt
Lynch

Astbury is the only one who hadn’t been AA.
All these people saying we’re gonna struggle with this new stuff...let em.
People still can’t believe that we are as good as we are.
And if you want to win the Grandfinal you have to come to Punt Rd

 

[Dr Tigris]

If you brought Soldo in, he'd be the no1 ruckman...Taking most of the actual ruckwork (he's better at tapwork), Nank would be more for around the ground.

As for your question...I suppose it comes down to how much damage the coaches think will be done during that 20% of the time.
How we were last year wont be relevant...center clearances without Lambert coming in from the backline wont be as effective (to give one example of change) and there is a matter of quality of clearances. Ours were mostly scrappy/slower (having been gained from a losing ruck), while oppositions were cleaner and quicker, which is a big deal when you don't have an extra defender.

Agree re Soldo. If he comes in he's the no.1 tap ruck. Then play him where he can be useful. Play him say 60-70% on ground. Nank plays tall ruck rover and smashes in against their 2nd ruck. Perhaps can see Nank totally dominating against back up rucks. And Soldo's job is to break even and ensure that we don't lose control against their no. 1.

As for whether it matters. I am not sure. I veer from major impact, to minor impact. Time will tell.

But what I really suspect is that some teams with weaker rucks and midfields won't be able to take advantage of the rule changes and it won't matter - play Nank one out. Some teams with strong rucks and midfields will kill it. And then we'll probably need that big strong tap ruck. If Collingwood and the Demons can get 2-3 goals extra a game then we must work to stop that.

And to have that work against the best teams we'll have to make it a more regular set up for us. So possibly Soldo plays a quite a few games, so that we know how to work to him. And he knows how to play his role in the AFL.

 

[Tiger Toffee]

Agree re Soldo. If he comes in he's the no.1 tap ruck. Then play him where he can be useful. Play him say 60-70% on ground. Nank plays tall ruck rover and smashes in against their 2nd ruck. Perhaps can see Nank totally dominating against back up rucks. And Soldo's job is to break even and ensure that we don't lose control against their no. 1.

As for whether it matters. I am not sure. I veer from major impact, to minor impact. Time will tell.

But what I really suspect is that some teams with weaker rucks and midfields won't be able to take advantage of the rule changes and it won't matter - play Nank one out. Some teams with strong rucks and midfields will kill it. And then we'll probably need that big strong tap ruck. If Collingwood and the Demons can get 2-3 goals extra a game then we must work to stop that.

And to have that work against the best teams we'll have to make it a more regular set up for us. So possibly Soldo plays a quite a few games, so that we know how to work to him. And he knows how to play his role in the AFL.

Pies in their last 12 games of 2018 only got past 80 on 5 occasions and they were GC, NM, PA, Bris and ******* us.

Brisbane went past 80 seven time in their last 12 games and the saints did it 5 times in their last 12 to put things into perspective so lets not think the pies are this scoring machine who can score from rucking, centre clearances etc

 

[Ceehook]

if Lynch isn't right for rounds 1-2 and they are going to change structures and tactics
they might play Soldo as No1 ruck and play Nank in Lynches role ???

are we there yet :-(

 

[Tiger man12]

Of course it's a weakness to have any player being dominant.

We know that when Rance gets done we tend to lose.

Rucks are similar. A dominant ruck forces the team to play to a winning ruck and set up in a certain way. If that is nullified they are at a disadvantage. But if your dominant ruck dominates then you have a huge advantage.

We need to try and stop our disadvantage in tap rucking. Without losing the advantage we have with Nank when the ball hits the ground. That's why I'd look at playing Soldo as first ruck, but Nank as a huge ruck rover taking less taps. Soldo doesn't have to play huge minutes to nullify any disadvantage we have in taps. And if he just hits in super hard he helps Nank out.

I don't see Balta as being ready yet given his 2018 VFL performances - fitness and fading out of games (will be fixed just with time and maturity. Super talent).

However, if CCJ is ready in 2019 to play serious AFL minutes he's the obvious choice. He's a genuine AFL ruck talent, is good around the ground and a quality KPF. But is he physically ready?

have a look at the intraclub game. I think balta could be a very good option. Can play anywhere on the ground plus give nank a chop out.

 

[Dr Tigris]

have a look at the intraclub game. I think balta could be a very good option. Can play anywhere on the ground plus give nank a chop out.

As much as I want Balta to be the full job, I reckon if we want to nullify a dominant ruck we need to play a genuine ruck. That's Soldo or CCJ. As Balta develops his leap and size (amazing development for his age) might make him a decent odd job ruck. But against someone much taller than him he's likely to be beaten. Which defeats the purpose. I'd rather play Grigg than Balta for that role. Still get beaten, but Grigg is worth more around the ground ATM.

However, if these rule changes work out to be much less of a deal than some people think they could be, and Balta shows really good VFL form, then he's a great option as a pinch hit ruck and utility player.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Pies in their last 12 games of 2018 only got past 80 on 5 occasions and they were GC, NM, PA, Bris and ******* us.

Brisbane went past 80 seven time in their last 12 games and the saints did it 5 times in their last 12 to put things into perspective so lets not think the pies are this scoring machine who can score from rucking, centre clearances etc

I'm not saying they are . What I am talking about is that if the rule changes mean top notch rucks can dominate then you have to stop that. Then Soldo.

I'm not saying that Soldo is someone we should play anyway. Or that the rule changes will make that much of a difference. And in no way am I saying that the Pies are awesome in any way .

But if the rule changes lead to dominant rucks absolutely dominating they can control games. As much as I think Nank is awesome, he isn't a top notch tap ruck. So if Stuff, that leads to other Stuff, and I'm talking about how to stop and take advantage of that Stuff. Not that I believe that Stuff is real and important. And especially that the Pies will win through better Stuff. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Cdog71]

Last year before Natanui went down champion data had it that in every and any stoppage he rucked at not one oppo ruck had a hitout to advantage.
He went down and they still won the Granny.
I want our FD to back em selves we’ve got enough weapons and defensive structure to beat any mob if we can come up with the strategy and execute it.
It’s the gameplan not the Ruckman.
We’ll try different stuff, I’m lookin forward to it.

I still reckon everybody is the underdog against us at the G.

 

[Tiger Toffee]

I'm not saying they are . What I am talking about is that if the rule changes mean top notch rucks can dominate then you have to stop that. Then Soldo.

I'm not saying that Soldo is someone we should play anyway. Or that the rule changes will make that much of a difference. And in no way am I saying that the Pies are awesome in any way .

But if the rule changes lead to dominant rucks absolutely dominating they can control games. As much as I think Nank is awesome, he isn't a top notch tap ruck. So if Stuff, that leads to other Stuff, and I'm talking about how to stop and take advantage of that Stuff. Not that I believe that Stuff is real and important. And especially that the Pies will win through better Stuff. Hope that makes sense.

I understood it perfectly Just on this Soldo stuff he might be improving but he is nowhere near AFL level yet and talk of him being no 1 ruck is insane. Another year in the ressies with a game here and there and then look at 2020 IMO.

 

[Dr Tigris]

I understood it perfectly Just on this Soldo stuff he might be improving but he is nowhere near AFL level yet and talk of him being no 1 ruck is insane. Another year in the ressies with a game here and there and then look at 2020 IMO.

I agree Soldo is not a no.1 ruck. My point is that if we want to play a tap ruck (it's tap rucking that matters in this instance), then Soldo is our best bet. He's the guy that takes most of the center bounces because of his size and quality in that job. After that he's not much chop really.

So in my mind to play him the rule changes really have to have made a major difference. Like a really really major difference. Like good rucks totally dominate the game over weak rucks in taps. So you are forced to play tap rucks because of the havoc good rucks cause. It might happen. But I do doubt it. I reckon we'll have a major trade off. And then maybe other tactics and players come into play. But the club seems to think its a serious issue, They would have trialed the new rules and various strategies to deal with them. Maybe they have found that Nank does murder Grigg, and so are scared by what happens when Nank goes off. DUnno.