Is it Bucks or the Players?

Who's to blame for our inconsitency: Bucks or players?

  • Bucks

    Votes: 52 54.2%

  • Players

    Votes: 44 45.8%
  • Total voters
    96

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Leviathan Pie said:
Fairly poor statement, based on the most recent history.

i.e the Bulldogs.
Click to expand...

How did the coach before Bevo go? How is Simpson going at the Eagles? How is Rocket going at Gold Coast?
 
jmac70 said:
How did the coach before Bevo go? How is Simpson going at the Eagles? How is Rocket going at Gold Coast?
Click to expand...
Simpson took over in 2014 after Eagles finished 13th the year before, that year they improved to 9th, 2015 they finished 2nd, and 2016 they finished 6th.

So he's improved them quite significantly it would seem.

As for Eade, don't rate him as a coach - in any way.
 

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jmac70 said:
Inconsistency is not unique to Collingwood. It's a very even year and every team is experiencing regular dips in form.
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And along with North and the Swans we are 3-6 with scalps of top 8teams. As strange as it seems (and much like in game performance against the Hawks) if we get on a roll and string a chain of wins together we might be back in the hunt and then who knows.

In our case the woes are a mix of the coaching, players and recruiting. There is no single reason. The coaches not preparing players to be switched on at he start of a game has happened against that dogs, bombers, blues and Hawks. That is a problem yet we jumped out of the blocks against the swans saints and gws.

The players natural inclination to stop, kick backwards, switch for no reason other than they were slow or kick long and high to disadvantage is a mindset issue. Again this is coaching and player preparation. Our players have done this so often it looks like our game plan and it doesn't come off.

Especially in the greasy wet conditions against the tigers bombers and the blues, our implementation was poor because it looked like we were playing cute instead of wet weather footy and paid the penalty and then regressed to holding play up and kicking backwards.

If the Buckley way is handball chains and kick to advantage we are electric. But there doesn't seem to be any tactics in between that and kicking backwards. It's either on or off. Our spread is awful at times when we get the ball on half back or the wing. Zero movement up the ground or we take a mark and don't kick to the lead.

We were down six goals against half a vfl team because we weren't ready at the start. Reckon only Howe Pendles and Dunn were ready at the start the rest were woeful in the first quarter. That is the coaching team's responsibility.

If the status quo continues then the
Coach will cop the wrap as sacking the coach is the only immediate response irrespective of whether they are to blame. You can't sack 10 players mid season.
 
Leviathan Pie said:
Fairly poor statement, based on the most recent history.

i.e the Bulldogs.
Click to expand...

That's one example.
Another example is Melbourne.


<html><head></head><body><table>
<tr>
<td><b>Coach</b></td>
<td><b>Years</b></td>
<td><b>Win/Loss Ratio</b></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Neil Daniher</td>
<td>1998-2007</td>
<td>49%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Mark Riley</td>
<td>2007</td>
<td>33%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Dean Bailey</td>
<td>2008-2011</td>
<td>27%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Todd Viney</td>
<td>2011</td>
<td>20%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Mark Neeld</td>
<td>2012-2013</td>
<td>15%</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Neil Craig</td>
<td>2013</td>
<td>9%</td>
</tr>
</table></body></html>



EDIT: Gotta love BIGFOOTY's rendering of HTML. *Much applause*

EDIT2: For those of you who couldn't be bothered copying out my HTML, pasting into a txt editor, saving as html and opening in a web browser... Firstly... LAZY!!! Secondly....

AMWEhGF.png
 
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Leviathan Pie said:
Simpson took over in 2014 after Eagles finished 13th the year before, that year they improved to 9th, 2015 they finished 2nd, and 2016 they finished 6th.

So he's improved them quite significantly it would seem.

As for Eade, don't rate him as a coach - in any way.
Click to expand...

I'd like to say time caught up with Eade, but I don't think Eade was ever infront of time to begin with...
 
jmac70 said:
History has also shown that a change in coach achieves nothing, sometimes in fact it makes things worse. If Bucks still has the players support then there is no point changing the coach this year.
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So if it makes things worse, then again, it's the coach.
 
DuckToaster said:
The greatest coach of the past decade managed to blow a 43 point lead. Just let that sit with you and you'll realise how unimportant the coach is on game day.
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Agree with all of that escept he isn't the greatest coach.
 
DuckToaster said:
The greatest coach of the past decade managed to blow a 43 point lead. Just let that sit with you and you'll realise how unimportant the coach is on game day.
Click to expand...

The most important role a coach has is to implement a game style that is robust enough to stand up across a season and against differing opposition structures.

The second most important role is teaching the players to understand it throughout the season and off season so they can execute it properly on game day on a consistent basis.

The third most important aspect is being able to motivate your players, engage with them and have them emotionally invest in your vision for the team.

The fourth most important ability is being able to identify on game day what is not working despite all of the above and be willing to adjust your side accordingly to produce the best chance of winning.

Now despite a coaches best efforts sometimes a side just has an off day emotionally and plays without intensity, sometimes circumstance with injury makes the likelihood of a win less and hell just like players I'm sure a coaching group can lose form also.

The best coaches like Clarkson will still lose games of football and after such sustained success the fall was always coming for his side but as we're presently seeing with Sydney and Fremantle the best coaches who have a proven track record look capable of turning around a sides fortunes in season or after a short period of seasons not finishing in the top 8.

During the first quarter against Hawthorn I thought I was about to witness a side no longer playing for the coach which is something I hadn't doubted all season. Thankfully for the club the fighting victory showed the players are still emotionally invested in the season and the coach and it's ironic that for a man who says his role isn't to motivate the players it's the biggest plus going for him at present. He gets a big tick for point 3.

They say Buckley has a high football IQ, I do believe that and it's why I was so strong in favour of the succession plan.

While I envisaged premiership success because of it the sad reality might be most players don't and the style he wants to play within the structures he sets is overly complicated and leads to confusion, which leads to loss of confidence, which leads to loss.

I have no way of knowing if this is indeed the case but I do know a good coach should be capable of identifying it well before year 6 and be willing and able to implement change that is best suited to the playing group at his disposal. On point 4 I remain neutral.

For mine though the biggest query about Buckley remains points 1 and 2 and has for many seasons now.

We just continually see the same patterns occurring both in terms of season results and how we play within a game and our inability to consistently produce our best football from one week to the next is something most of us find bewildering.

While I'd love to be proven wrong I just feel that despite his best intentions Buckley isn't capable of getting the best out of our list.
 
unplugged said:
I think the reason we're seeing inconsistency is a result of the younger or inexperienced players. Players like Moore, Aish, DeGoey, Maynard, Schade, Phillips, Smith and probably a couple of others that are escaping me.

Even Adams and Treloar are going to have occasional down games until they hit their peak in 3 to 5 years.

Add to that, our experienced players coming in and out of form, ala Fasolo. Blair is constantly down but is still in the side more often than not.

The only really consistent players we've had this season are Pendlebury, Howe, Elliott (once he got going) Dunn, Sidebottom and Goldsack, which is saying something.

All of this compiled, mixed with a 22 that's constantly changing. This is where Buckley can gain some control. Get a better idea as to what the best 22 is going forward and try and hold the same team for 4-5 weeks.
Click to expand...

Agree. With the addition of older guys like Wells and Dunn, even Schade to a lesser extent, we were still on average 16 months younger than the Dawks and a season less experienced.

On the OP, didn't actually vote as I think there is responsibility for our current circumstance to be apportioned to both the coach and the players. I also think the footy department shouldn't be immune from scrutiny.
 

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Kappa said:
Yep, with a young team decimated by injuries in a rebuild after FOUR premierships it really proves how the senior coach is pretty much meaningless :D
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Actually we were younger by 16 months on average, they had less players with under 50 games (6 pies v 5 hawks) and less players with under 100 games (13 v 11).
 
Last edited:
Alexander323bc said:
First I disagree with Bucks that players should be self motivated. That's idealistic a view as it comes. Sir Alex Ferguson was known for his hairdryer treatment. Ask David Beckham, best player at that time, about it. He copped a boot in the face.
He was out the door the next season. However to get away with hairdryer treatment you need street cred and Ferguson had it in spades by that stage. Unfortunately bucks doesn't have it at this stage. I think he knows that and that's why he has been all softly softly.
The players have not played together long enough. Some statistical analysis company predicted our slide down the ladder. They also predicted the doggies climb up the ladder last year.
Maybe just maybe we are exactly where we are meant to be.
Click to expand...

Bucks made this statement but it seems posters just seem to take it as meaning that he and the coaching team therefore don't do anything to motivate the players. Does anyone actually know this to be a fact or is it just easier to assume the most extreme extrapolation irrespective of how illogical that would be?
 
CFC2010 said:
Come on DuckToaster I was at that game..... if you don't think Bucks was the catalyst for that fight back and win then I don't know anything about football.........do you have the Elliott quote interested to hear it.

Bucks was very honest after the game and in the rooms.
Click to expand...

I thought we started to break even with the Dawks late in the first which was actually prior to the Bucks spray. I'd assume a few of the on-field leaders started it.
 
Daniel J said:
Pies end of 2011

A young premiership list. Capable of winning more premierships.
All draft picks gone to gold coast and now to gws meaning the chasing pack would not improve as quickly as normal.
Perfect time to be on top of the AFL. Should of have targeted 2 to 3 more premierships.

But wait....


Let's replace the coach, dismantle the squad and rebuild in time to compete(if rebuild goes to plan) with the gws who have 20 top ten draft picks.

This goes down as one of the worst debacles in sporting history. All coaches, recruiters and people responsible need to go. Just not acceptable.

We could of challenged for more flags over past 6 years and still be where we are today.
Click to expand...

Yawn! How many times does this fable have to be trotted out?
 
jackcass said:
I thought we started to break even with the Dawks late in the first which was actually prior to the Bucks spray. I'd assume a few of the on-field leaders started it.
Click to expand...

I disagree jackcass with your assumption that our on-field leaders started to turn things at the end of the first.

I saw the vision of the spray twice on the footy shows last night........check out the faces of a couple of our on- filed leaders in Wells & Treloar........they were pooing their pants.

I will post the following again......what Phillips says is very poignant......mark my words it was a line in the sand moment for our Club and in particular Bucks.

Bucks is the one that re-focused the boys and motivated them to victory......I have no doubt about that.

From the Herald Sun.....

Phillips was spared a personal barrage during Buckley’s quarter-time rocket against the Hawks, but shed some insight into how animated the coach was.

“The main message was to take ownership,” Phillips said.

264428ca95305faec20782597a1d9120

Nathan Buckley delivered an old-fashioned spray at quarter-time when Collingwood trailed by six goals against Hawthorn. Picture: Wayne Ludbey
“Are we going to become a slave to falling behind and feeling sorry for ourselves?

“It was a maturity and growth thing — are we going to stand up now? If we’re going to make a change to our season, it’s got to happen now. It was a pretty urgent message.

“What do you want to be known for? It was a line in the sand moment.

“For him to be a bit more animated and emotional probably woke up a few blokes, including myself.”
 
Leviathan Pie said:
Fairly poor statement, based on the most recent history.

i.e the Bulldogs.
Click to expand...

Or we can look at the Blues Rattan - Malthouse - Bolton transition... always 2 sides to any argument, even in recent history.
 
CFC2010 said:
I disagree jackcass with your assumption that our on-field leaders started to turn things at the end of the first.

I saw the vision of the spray twice on the footy shows last night........check out the faces of a couple of our on- filed leaders in Wells & Treloar........they were pooing their pants.

I will post the following again......what Phillips says is very poignant......mark my words it was a line in the sand moment for our Club and in particular Bucks.

Bucks is the one that re-focused the boys and motivated them to victory......I have no doubt about that.

From the Herald Sun.....

Phillips was spared a personal barrage during Buckley’s quarter-time rocket against the Hawks, but shed some insight into how animated the coach was.

“The main message was to take ownership,” Phillips said.

264428ca95305faec20782597a1d9120

Nathan Buckley delivered an old-fashioned spray at quarter-time when Collingwood trailed by six goals against Hawthorn. Picture: Wayne Ludbey
“Are we going to become a slave to falling behind and feeling sorry for ourselves?

“It was a maturity and growth thing — are we going to stand up now? If we’re going to make a change to our season, it’s got to happen now. It was a pretty urgent message.

“What do you want to be known for? It was a line in the sand moment.

“For him to be a bit more animated and emotional probably woke up a few blokes, including myself.”
Click to expand...

We did actually start to break even with the Dawks later in the 1st quarter and actually should have impacted the scoreboard more than we did. Sicily's 1st goal and the following Bruest goal were against the run of play. Maybe the players lifted in anticipation of spray, maybe the players lifted because the on-field leaders rallied them. Phillips lifted due to the spray, Elliott didn't even notice it or what was said.
 
DuckToaster said:
The greatest coach of the past decade managed to blow a 43 point lead. Just let that sit with you and you'll realise how unimportant the coach is on game day.
Click to expand...

Then why bother having Coaches Then?
 
TradeDraft said:
It is bit of both but more I think Buckley as he seems to have this Stupid GamePlan is which what we saw in the 1st Qtr and only goes to Plan B(2nd Half) every once in a while
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Actually it's the other way around. We saw "the gameplan" executed as it is meant to be later in the game, what we saw at the start is what happens when players stray from "the gameplan".
 
TradeDraft said:
Then why bother having Coaches Then?
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For the other 6 days of the week. Read my posts carefully and hopefully they make some form of sense. I don't think it's as simple as replacing our coach when by all accounts the players are in support of Bucks. We're not getting flogged every week.
 
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