Is it time for a National Reserves League?

[rjslcM]

Hawthorn, Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond
Adelaide, Port Adelaide
GWS, Sydney
Gold Coast, Brisbane
West Coast, Fremantle
Darwin, Casuarina
Launceston, Hobart

Until something like this happens and the AFL becomes truly national, then a national reserves competition is unfeasible due to the inequities in finances.

Second tier comp would require each AFL club to have a list of 40 odd players, as they currently do. These would be eligible to play AFL or reserves. AFL clubs would then ideally have a second rookie list, with up to 30 players. Players on the rookie list play reserves and can only play AFL if they are elevated from the rookie list to senior list. Already, there would be more financial strain on clubs. More players on these reserves/rookie lists will also take a lot of talent out of state leagues.
So, in the AFL's current format, you are then asking ten Victorian teams to list all of these extra players and the VFL basically becomes irrelevant due to its poor quality. You are also asking 'interstate teams' to put these extra players on a plane every second week whereas the Victorian clubs do not, ripping further money from their club.

 

[Underdog]

Not actually fun, not actually a fact. 2015 WAFL salary cap is $280,000, SANFL is $360,000 (and includes reserves players, not sure if WAFL cap does).

My mistake, who would have thought Wikipedia could possibly lie...

I knew there was a significant difference hence the googling.

 

[master bate]

Hawthorn, Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond
Adelaide, Port Adelaide
GWS, Sydney
Gold Coast, Brisbane
West Coast, Fremantle
Darwin, Casuarina
Launceston, Hobart

Until something like this happens and the AFL becomes truly national, then a national reserves competition is unfeasible due to the inequities in finances.

Second tier comp would require each AFL club to have a list of 40 odd players, as they currently do. These would be eligible to play AFL or reserves. AFL clubs would then ideally have a second rookie list, with up to 30 players. Players on the rookie list play reserves and can only play AFL if they are elevated from the rookie list to senior list. Already, there would be more financial strain on clubs. More players on these reserves/rookie lists will also take a lot of talent out of state leagues.
So, in the AFL's current format, you are then asking ten Victorian teams to list all of these extra players and the VFL basically becomes irrelevant due to its poor quality. You are also asking 'interstate teams' to put these extra players on a plane every second week whereas the Victorian clubs do not, ripping further money from their club.

4 teams in Tasmanian and the Northern Territory doesn't make the AFL a national league. That's ridiculous. To be a national league all the AFL needs to do is solidify the game in NSW and QLD. How many Victorian teams are sustainable is a different conversation.

There's also no need for such a large list of 2nd list players for a reserves comp. Clubs can use top up players from the TAC Cup, local and amateur footy just as they do now. A typical player who is keen to play reserves footy can be young, fit and keen for opportunity, whilst the stand alone VFL can be for more older experienced types.

With clever scheduling the travel can be cut down to 7 trips in an 18 game season for non Victorian teams. That's not much for all the guys on AFL lists and for ex AFL types who most clubs will add to a reserve list for a bit of experience. I'm sure plenty of young guys won't mind 7 trips for a chance to impress AFL scouts.

 

[The_Reaper]

Hawthorn, Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond
Adelaide, Port Adelaide
GWS, Sydney
Gold Coast, Brisbane
West Coast, Fremantle
Darwin, Casuarina
Launceston, Hobart

Until something like this happens and the AFL becomes truly national, then a national reserves competition is unfeasible due to the inequities in finances.

Second tier comp would require each AFL club to have a list of 40 odd players, as they currently do. These would be eligible to play AFL or reserves. AFL clubs would then ideally have a second rookie list, with up to 30 players. Players on the rookie list play reserves and can only play AFL if they are elevated from the rookie list to senior list. Already, there would be more financial strain on clubs. More players on these reserves/rookie lists will also take a lot of talent out of state leagues.
So, in the AFL's current format, you are then asking ten Victorian teams to list all of these extra players and the VFL basically becomes irrelevant due to its poor quality. You are also asking 'interstate teams' to put these extra players on a plane every second week whereas the Victorian clubs do not, ripping further money from their club.

So how come the Bulldogs managed to field a reserves team this year and last year?

 

[Colonial]

You are also asking 'interstate teams' to put these extra players on a plane every second week whereas the Victorian clubs do not, ripping further money from their club.

Ummm the Northern clubs put their players on the plane every week in the NEAFL and at different times to when the 1sts are on.
Hardly any different.

 

[Dalphonso]

I don't think it's just a PA matter. The prediction about 4000 strong crowds to AFC matches just never happened and the fees paid don't make up for the decline in crowds. Look at die hard Maggies fans that walked away like the cheer squad. Have a read of their FB page when the maggies became Power rezzies.

Still sour grapes from the White Ants (Gnaw Wood)it seems?

 

[PerfectFooty]

I would like a reserves team purely because the AFL have made an absolute mess of the VFA filling it with reserves sides.

However i get the sad feeling without the reserves sides the VFL would loose a lot of support with just stand alone clubs.

 

[sonnywalters]

Scott Selwood and Pat McGinnity are unable to play this weekend for East Perth because they haven't played enough WAFL games to qualify - understandably West Coast aren't happy but fair enough on the WAFL standing up for the integrity of it's own final series.

In the first week of the WAFL finals, Fremantle resting a whole bunch of players meant that Peel had to field a virtual reserves team in it's first ever finals match and was predictably smashed by over in 100 points.

Looking over in SA and it seems that the standalone AFL reserves sides have had a severely negative impact on both SANFL attendance and tv viewers.

The NSW and QLD sides are significantly disadvantaged by playing against weak standalone sides with players significantly below SANFL/VFL/WAFL standard. The standalone sides are disadvantaged by the arbitrary merger of NSW and QLD leagues leading to much higher costs. In the short history of the NEAFL, many teams have already voluntarily relegated themselves.

In Victoria the former VFA is pretty much dead and apparently Port Melbourne are looking to try and organise a break away league.

The current situation disadvantages 4 AFL clubs, slightly disadvantages some WA clubs like West Coast this weekend but most of all is having a severely negative impact on football at the lower levels which will eventually affect the AFL.

So it's time to bring back the Reserves league.

In regards to how it would work it would be separated into two conferences

National Conference

Divided into two divisions of four teams. Each team plays each other team in it's division 4 times (12 matches) and plays each team in the other division twice (8 matches) for a total of 20 matches.
There is a combined ladder for both divisions.

Northern Division
1. Brisbane
2. Gold Coast
3. Sydney
4. UWS

Western Division
1. Adelaide
2. Fremantle
3. Port Adelaide
4. West Coast

Victorian Conference

One division of ten teams. Each team plays seven other teams twice (14) and two teams three times (6) for a total of 20 matches.

1. Box Hill
2. Collingwood
3. Essendon
4. Footscray
5. Geelong
6. Melbourne
7. North Melbourne
8. Northern Blues
9. Richmond
10. St Kilda

Finals works the same as the AFL


Finals
1. Vic Conference 1
2. Nat Conference 1
3. Vic Conference 2
4. Nat Conference 2
5. Vic Conference 3
6. Nat Conference 3
7. Vic Conference 4
8. Nat Conference 4

The highest ranked team hosts the Grand Final. If it's 1st vs 1st then the time with more points over the season hosts. If they have the same number of wins than the team with the higher percentage hosts.

I like the idea but your argument is weak. It would not fix any of the ills you mention at the start. A national reserve league wouldnt help West Coast or Freo in those situations you mentioned. If Freo Reserves were in a final and Lyon rests players - he still rests players - so they put out a weak Reserves side or have to draft players in from the WAFL. If the Eagles Reserve side doesnt make the finals - then Selwood and McGinity still dont get a game anyway.

Also can you fit NT Thunder in your Northern Division? I think you need 10 sides in your National Conference.

 

[TwentyNine]

No, one NRL is too many as it is

 

[The_Reaper]

I like the idea but your argument is weak. It would not fix any of the ills you mention at the start. A national reserve league wouldnt help West Coast or Freo in those situations you mentioned. If Freo Reserves were in a final and Lyon rests players - he still rests players - so they put out a weak Reserves side or have to draft players in from the WAFL. If the Eagles Reserve side doesnt make the finals - then Selwood and McGinity still dont get a game anyway.

Also can you fit NT Thunder in your Northern Division? I think you need 10 sides in your National Conference.

The first is a pretty minor and irrelevant one. It's more to illustrate that what West Coast want and what the WAFL want are at odds.

The second one isn't about helping Freo - it's how that whole thing was an embarrassment for the WAFL.

 

[footyfan1978]

100%. Traditionalists will weep at the VFL/SANFL/WAFL becoming 3rd tier but it is the rational and common sense thing to do.

As a kid I grew up used to the all AFL teams (called VFL back then) had an under 19's team, a reserves team and of course their main team. The VFA still existed outside of that essentially as 3rd tier behind the VFL seniors and VFL reserves. In fact the VFA had two divisions so I still remember it being quite popular in early 80's and used to love watching it on Sunday afternoon on channel 10. The difference was then AFL generally only played a game on Sunday every two weeks for Swans home games so Sunday for football was the domain of VFA to get public exposure. That all changed in mid to late 80's when the VFL started playing more and more Sunday football and adding into Brisbane Bears and West Coast Eagles to the league. I think we just have to accept those days are past of a 3rd tier comp still have enough interest in it to pull decent crowds. As we saw of weekend though, when there is no other footy on there are footy fans that will still goto lower level footy as we saw in Prelim final of Willy v Essendon. Those type of crowds reminded me of the old VFL in early 80's.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

I would like a reserves team purely because the AFL have made an absolute mess of the VFA filling it with reserves sides.

However i get the sad feeling without the reserves sides the VFL would loose a lot of support with just stand alone clubs.

A couple of times over the years since the demise of the VFA in 1995, a metropolitan super league has been mooted below VFL level.

If done right, the structure would be:

1. AFL
2. AFL Reserves - 18 Reserves sides mirroring the AFL fixture.
3. VFA (welcome back!) - the stand alone sides plus the best clubs from metro comps (e.g. Balwyn, Aberfeldie, Greensborough, Deer Park, East Brighton). Once implemented, teams could be promoted or relegated through an application process or via a playoff format at the end of the season.

I reckon that it is better than the current system, but I am not saying it is perfect and it could be tinkered with to improve on it.

 

[SgtSchulz]

I don't think it's just a PA matter. The prediction about 4000 strong crowds to AFC matches just never happened and the fees paid don't make up for the decline in crowds. Look at die hard Maggies fans that walked away like the cheer squad. Have a read of their FB page when the maggies became Power rezzies.

All four of them.

 

[glengowan]

Agree a national reserves league (Futures League) would be better for everyone and should be played as curtain raisers where possible.

Top ups squad should be zoned and Under 20. Two years of training if you don't get picked on a main list as an 18 year old. Stay involved with your junior club while on the top up list.

This keeps the Reserves as a comp for development. It keeps the State Leagues as genuine competitions. Once finished on a top up list after 2 years, if you don't make it on an AFL main list you take your experience back to State League/Ammos/Country Footy.

 

[master bate]

Agree a national reserves league (Futures League) would be better for everyone and should be played as curtain raisers where possible.

Top ups squad should be zoned and Under 20. Two years of training if you don't get picked on a main list as an 18 year old. Stay involved with your junior club while on the top up list.

This keeps the Reserves as a comp for development. It keeps the State Leagues as genuine competitions. Once finished on a top up list after 2 years, if you don't make it on an AFL main list you take your experience back to State League/Ammos/Country Footy.

I'd go more under 21 or under 22, some kids particularly talls really take a few years to show their talent especially outside of elite pathways and I'd also go with each club having maybe 5-10 reserve listed guys who are mature bodies and keep the standard of the comp up. Fringe AFL players already dominate state leagues, you don't want to minimising their development but lowering the standard too much.

I certainly agree getting a reserves comp that is about development and clearing the air for state leagues to be strong competitions would be a good balance.

 

[footyfan1978]

I reckon South Australia and West Australia being traditionally strong footy states can work their own s**t out.

Maybe an Eastern Australian Football League (EAFL)for the reserves of all 10 Vic based AFL clubs and the 4 from NSW and Queensland too.
Below that you would have the VFA in Victoria and each of NSW and Queensland have their old state leagues.

Most of these state leagues should only have 8 or 10 sides in it.
The EAFL could incorporate the two best VFA clubs, lets say Port Melbourne and Williamstown as an example to join the 14 AFL reserve clubs and each the remaining VFA clubs like Sandringham, Box Hill, Coburg, Preston, Frankston, Werribee, Casey and North Ballarat play as the VFA. The premiership team is promoted to EAFL and lower of two VFA clubs on ladder in EAFL are relegated to VFA the following season. Obviously VFA clubs would be less keen to be on any curtain raiser roster so part of incentive for them to play in EAFL is they actually get given more than half their games at home so they do not lose out financially when they play in EAFL.

I have not worked out the full logistics but in general the EAFL should try to match up the same draw as possible as AFL to have as many AFL clubs as possible get curtain raisers and when a club from Victoria, NSW or Queensland play Crows, Port, Eagles or Freo they should be matched up to play one of the two VFA clubs that weekend wherever possible.
So for example if Carlton are playing Fremantle over in Perth our reserves side should be playing Port Melbourne at Port's oval on that weekend as an example. When we are playing Essendon in AFL we should always have a curtain raiser. If Carlton are playing Eagles at Docklands in a twilight Saturday game we should be playing someone like Port Melbourne in the curtain raiser at Docklands.
The obvious first thing to work out for most AFL clubs to have reserves sides is with list only around 44 players in AFL right now you probably only end up with half your reserve sides with actual AFL listed players. Maybe the rookie lists need to go and we instead have the old supplementary lists we can have about 15 players outside your AFL list that drafted similar to rookie draft now which any kid over 18 that not picked up in National Draft can go into.

Certainly for players on West Coast and Freo list if you not in AFL side by playing in WAFL you would be more settled to develop and gives Perth based fans ample chances to see their players not in AFL side compared to if they were on the road every second week.

 

[sigur]

I reckon South Australia and West Australia being traditionally strong footy states can work their own s**t out.

Maybe an Eastern Australian Football League (EAFL)for the reserves of all 10 Vic based AFL clubs and the 4 from NSW and Queensland too.
Below that you would have the VFA in Victoria and each of NSW and Queensland have their old state leagues.
...

Do it Australia wide or don't bother.

 

[footyfan1978]

Do it Australia wide or don't bother.

We need to exclude the state that wants to bring their little in house squabbles with them. Let them keep them and sort their own s**t out

 

[sigur]

We need to exclude the state that wants to bring their little in house squabbles with them. Let them keep them and sort their own s**t out

There wouldn't be squabbles if the AFL clubs left the SANFL.

AFL Reserves is an AFL problem - why should the state leagues have to fix it?

 

[madmug]

There wouldn't be squabbles if the AFL clubs left the SANFL.

AFL Reserves is an AFL problem - why should the state leagues have to fix it?

Because its the AFLs game. They'll do what they want.

 

[Justinpa1]

If this is going to work then it has to be done properly.

ALL Reserves games must be played as curtain raisers at AFL stadiums, then the games MUST finish no earlier than half an hour before the AFL game starts or don't bother. I could see myself getting to Adelaide Oval a couple of hours early (instead of 1 hour before, like I normally do) to see most of the AFC Reserves play the Carlton Reserves but not if the current rules are still in place that state that the ground has to be available to the AFL teams at least 1 hour before the main game.

Up until the late 1990's the SANFL regularly played league curtain raisers (e.g. Norwood v South Adelaide) prior to an AFL game at Football Park, at this time (before the AFL clubs demanded warm ups) these games finished about 20 minutes before the main game starting. The games were great to watch and also gave the SANFL players experience in playing in front of good sized crowds, as by the time the last quarter got under way there was around 20,000 at the ground and by finish time there would be around 35,000 people there (for a 40-45,000 AFL game crowd).

It would be brilliant to cheer on the Crows Reserves and really make the day a whole day experience. How hard would it be to start the reserves game at 1:10pm for an AFL start of 4:10pm, with the reserves finishing at 3:40pm (I'd definitely get there at 2:30pm to watch the 2nd half) - still time for the AFL players to warm up on the ground, and they could always do a proper warm up on ground at half time of the reserves.

 

[footyfan1978]

ALL Reserves games must be played as curtain raisers at AFL stadiums, then the games MUST finish no earlier than half an hour before the AFL game starts
not if the current rules are still in place that state that the ground has to be available to the AFL teams at least 1 hour before the main game.

still time for the AFL players to warm up on the ground, and they could always do a proper warm up on ground at half time of the reserves.

I would love the AFL to bring back the reserves but the biggest issue is the bloody warm ups all the AFL clubs seem to demand that stop a curtain raiser finishing at the traditional time it used to. I think Carlton had two curtain raisers this year but from memory basically they start too early because of the stupid need to have a warm up put the starting time of curtain raiser so far back.
I'd love to see the warm up dispensed with. Players did not need it for first hundred years so see no reason they could survive just doing it indoors or as you said, half time of the reserves match.

At the moment AFL games with no true curtain raisers is a real downer to the so called "match day experience".
It has now become something like turning up to watch a movie at cinema for 2 hours. There is now no reason to make a day of it like many of us enjoyed in 1980s and 1990s.

 

[thegreig]

NEAFL club Ainslie withdraws from league

THE NEAFL will be down to 10 teams from 2016 after Canberra club Ainslie withdrew from the competition.

Ainslie had a licence to play next season, but announced its immediate withdrawal this week after the AFL rejected its proposal to be Canberra's sole team in 2017.

Eastlake will now be the sole Canberra-based team in the second-tier competition that also encompasses reserves teams for the Brisbane Lions, Gold Coast, Sydney Swans and Greater Western Sydney.

The AFL's preference was for one team to represent Canberra from 2017 - either a combined Ainslie/Eastlake outfit or a Canberra representative team, which would involve a new name and colours, but Ainslie was not keen.

"This proposal from the AFL sought significant financial contribution from both Ainslie and Eastlake Football Clubs," Ainslie said in a statement.

"With this understanding, as a club we have decided to withdraw from the NEAFL competition, effective immediately, as it was not sustainable to continue to play for just one more season, and to invest our financial resources back into the facilities and infrastructure of the Ainslie Football Club precinct."

AFL NSW/ACT chief executive officer Sam Graham said both clubs had spent many months in negotiations.

"It is disappointing to see a foundation club of the NEAFL elect to withdraw from the competition but we respect their decision," Graham said in a statement.

"We now look forward to working with Eastlake to get the best possible outcome for football in Canberra."

Ainslie struggled in 2015, but managed five wins and a draw from 18 matches to finish in ninth place, while Eastlake were wooden spooners with just one victory.

The NEAFL Grand Final is being played on Saturday night between the Northern Territory Thunder, and Brisbane club Aspley.

More By Michael Whiting


http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-09-19/neafl-club-ainslie-withdraws-from-league

from what I understand the NEAFL wants a Canberra and Far North Queensland rep team

should have been a 12 team comp from the start
QLD (6) Bris 3 GC 2 FNQ 1
NSW (4) East Syd 2 West Syd 2
ACT (1)
NT (1)

 

[Northtobeunited]

If this is going to work then it has to be done properly.

ALL Reserves games must be played as curtain raisers at AFL stadiums, then the games MUST finish no earlier than half an hour before the AFL game starts or don't bother. I could see myself getting to Adelaide Oval a couple of hours early (instead of 1 hour before, like I normally do) to see most of the AFC Reserves play the Carlton Reserves but not if the current rules are still in place that state that the ground has to be available to the AFL teams at least 1 hour before the main game.

Up until the late 1990's the SANFL regularly played league curtain raisers (e.g. Norwood v South Adelaide) prior to an AFL game at Football Park, at this time (before the AFL clubs demanded warm ups) these games finished about 20 minutes before the main game starting. The games were great to watch and also gave the SANFL players experience in playing in front of good sized crowds, as by the time the last quarter got under way there was around 20,000 at the ground and by finish time there would be around 35,000 people there (for a 40-45,000 AFL game crowd).

It would be brilliant to cheer on the Crows Reserves and really make the day a whole day experience. How hard would it be to start the reserves game at 1:10pm for an AFL start of 4:10pm, with the reserves finishing at 3:40pm (I'd definitely get there at 2:30pm to watch the 2nd half) - still time for the AFL players to warm up on the ground, and they could always do a proper warm up on ground at half time of the reserves.

Being a North supporter I would love to see all 18 AFL team have reserves and it would be great to see North at Adelaide oval play a senior and reserves game only problem would be the TV rights maybe show 2 reserves live games a week with a 1 hour highlight show of the rest of the games maybe on a Sunday night.

 

[The_Wookie]

There wouldn't be squabbles if the AFL clubs left the SANFL.

AFL Reserves is an AFL problem - why should the state leagues have to fix it?

Theres a damn good chance that without AFL reserves sides in Sa and WA that they wouldnt have got a tv deal for a start.