Is it time for the Hawks to ditch gaming?

JohnnyFontane90

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It's probably not in their charter (or achievable), but enacting social change by their actions would be a pretty cool thing for the AFL and its clubs to do.

Forgive me for simplfying it, but is it fair to say your view of what the AFL's perspective on this should be is, "someone will profit from this, might as well be us"?
given that it's legal and much of the competition is international which means Australian gambling spending goes overseas i don't see a problem with it. and i can't understand why that line of thinking is so taboo.

the funny thing about gambling is that all of the top 10 biggest gambling nations rank in the top 30 of human development index, 4 of these are in the top 10: australia, norway, canada and singapore. and that doesn't account for countries where gambling isn't strictly speaking legal like USA, germany etc. the conclusion from that when people's lives are relatively comfortable and they have excess money, they will gamble. could they be doing better things with their money? sure. but it's their excess money to spend as they wish. you will get people that misuse it but that's the same with fast food, credit cards, alcohol, plastic surgery or anything else.

the other elephant in the room is sports betting which is of significant benefit to the AFL as a whole. someone who wouldn't care about carlton vs brisbane can put a $20 bet on and all of a sudden the game becomes exciting. kind of like fantasy football. the AFL knows this that's why the endorse sportsbet, ladbrokes etc. they can't condemn pokies and be okay with sports betting as that would be hypocritical.
 

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Chief

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If we are going to put moral and ethical provisions on AFL and club revenue then it must apply to all revenue. Otherwise let clubs make money by any legal means they like.

Why just pick one random source that negatively effects a tiny proportion of the population ?
But we do. Why else do AFL players get sacked for moral transgressions? This has been discussed earlier in the thread.

As for other revenue - has been discussed.

"The family club" implies moral and ethical values. Appreciation of the value of the family unit. An argument can be made that this is just PR spin to make people happy with giving their club membership fees, happy to buy merchandise, and most of all to develop perceived value that sponsors believe will rub off on them.

At the start of this thread "the family club" thing was to me something that had good intentions but could be used for warped purposes.

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced it is a shockingly cynical con job. It is not a core value of the club, it's a fringe value and only applies where it can be used to generate good will the better to get money through the door. What's more, I think too many of the supporters who have posted in this thread are totally fine with that.
 

Chief

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the other elephant in the room is sports betting which is of significant benefit to the AFL as a whole. someone who wouldn't care about carlton vs brisbane can put a $20 bet on and all of a sudden the game becomes exciting. kind of like fantasy football. the AFL knows this that's why the endorse sportsbet, ladbrokes etc. they can't condemn pokies and be okay with sports betting as that would be hypocritical.
Sports bookie advertising with the AFL is all about developing the audience for lower-rating games?
 

Furn2

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But we do. Why else do AFL players get sacked for moral transgressions? This has been discussed earlier in the thread.

As for other revenue - has been discussed.

"The family club" implies moral and ethical values. Appreciation of the value of the family unit. An argument can be made that this is just PR spin to make people happy with giving their club membership fees, happy to buy merchandise, and most of all to develop perceived value that sponsors believe will rub off on them.

At the start of this thread "the family club" thing was to me something that had good intentions but could be used for warped purposes.

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced it is a shockingly cynical con job. It is not a core value of the club, it's a fringe value and only applies where it can be used to generate good will the better to get money through the door. What's more, I think too many of the supporters who have posted in this thread are totally fine with that.
Ok, so start with the biggest issues that affect the most people, in the worst way. Which is not pokies.

If Hawthorn got out of pokies tomorrow would that be it ? Footy's moral obligation to the community has been met ? play on.
 

JohnnyFontane90

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Sports bookie advertising with the AFL is all about developing the audience for lower-rating games?
not just audience and not just lower rating games. all games and all forms of interest. i'd be interested to see the ratings of the brownlow medal coverage since sports betting agencies became partners with AFL. the AFL wants people gambling on sports just as much as the bookies do. if it wasn't for gambling i would't have payed attention passed round 5 this year. and i probably wouldn't be devoting traffic to this site either lol
 

Chief

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not just audience and not just lower rating games. all games and all forms of interest. i'd be interested to see the ratings of the brownlow medal coverage since sports betting agencies became partners with AFL. the AFL wants people gambling on sports just as much as the bookies do. if it wasn't for gambling i would't have payed attention passed round 5 this year. and i probably wouldn't be devoting traffic to this site either lol
Again: anything for the money.
 

Off The Couch

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But we do. Why else do AFL players get sacked for moral transgressions? This has been discussed earlier in the thread.

As for other revenue - has been discussed.

"The family club" implies moral and ethical values. Appreciation of the value of the family unit. An argument can be made that this is just PR spin to make people happy with giving their club membership fees, happy to buy merchandise, and most of all to develop perceived value that sponsors believe will rub off on them.

At the start of this thread "the family club" thing was to me something that had good intentions but could be used for warped purposes.

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced it is a shockingly cynical con job. It is not a core value of the club, it's a fringe value and only applies where it can be used to generate good will the better to get money through the door. What's more, I think too many of the supporters who have posted in this thread are totally fine with that.

I'm happy with them to call themselves the family club even if part of their income is derived from pokies machines. It's no different from Woolworths being the 'fresh food people' - we all know that's not always the case but we continue to shop with them. Westpac is all about "helping it's customers prosper and grow" - when the reality is they are there to make a profit for the company and their shareholders. The list goes on and on and there is absolutely no reason why they can't be both. If a 'customer' isn't happy with the business that he is supporting, then he can always choose to take his business elsewhere - not ideal but simple really.

I like a gamble myself but I'm also able to educate my kids on the perils of doing so and there is no reason with the signing of the "Responsible Gaming" agreement that the Hawthorn FC, the family club, can't do the same with their supporter base.
 

asanque

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"The family club" implies moral and ethical values. Appreciation of the value of the family unit. An argument can be made that this is just PR spin to make people happy with giving their club membership fees, happy to buy merchandise, and most of all to develop perceived value that sponsors believe will rub off on them.

At the start of this thread "the family club" thing was to me something that had good intentions but could be used for warped purposes.

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced it is a shockingly cynical con job. It is not a core value of the club, it's a fringe value and only applies where it can be used to generate good will the better to get money through the door. What's more, I think too many of the supporters who have posted in this thread are totally fine with that.
What a shocking expose.

I have done some further investigating and it looks like you have just hit the tip of the iceberg regarding the so-called 'family club'.

In-depth analysis reveals that Hawthorn's drafting last year resulted in recruiting players that were unmarried and had no kids (including the mature aged Frawley!).

This year they got rid of Lake (married with three kids) and most recently traded Anderson (one kid).

Are these actions of a so-called family club?

I can't even remember the last time the Hawks recruited a father/son.

It just doesn't stop there. I have it on good authority that 'singles' are allowed to buy Hawthorn membership as well!

Talk about PR spin!

:D

P.S. In all seriousness, discussion about moral and ethical values and the link to the family unit is tenuous at best. Are you implying that families have better moral and ethical values than singles? I'm not even going to discuss society's growing lack of personal accountability and the 'nanny state' environment that we are already in.
 

Chief

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P.S. In all seriousness, discussion about moral and ethical values and the link to the family unit is tenuous at best. Are you implying that families have better moral and ethical values than singles? I'm not even going to discuss society's growing lack of personal accountability and the 'nanny state' environment that we are already in.
This "personal accountability" thing is another con job. Addicted? Your fault. Successful? All your own work. Abused by your boyfriend? Your fault for not leaving.

It's a conservative device to entirely blame the poor for their position and hail the successful as geniuses.

Your problem is your problem. If I can make money out of it that just makes me a savvy operator. See you at church.
 

asanque

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This "personal accountability" thing is another con job. Addicted? Your fault. Successful? All your own work. Abused by your boyfriend? Your fault for not leaving.

It's a conservative device to entirely blame the poor for their position and hail the successful as geniuses.

Your problem is your problem. If I can make money out of it that just makes me a savvy operator. See you at church.
A conspiracy within a conspiracy :p

If only things were than black and white (excluding Collingwood).

This whole society to blame for all my woes is a #firstworldproblem.

If someone relies on a football club to set the moral compass for the world, then I think the world is already in a lot of trouble.

Football is the religion and MCG is our church.

Having said that, is it time for the Blues to start sponsoring Beyond Blue? ;)

P.S. I can just see Trigg using that exact line in about 2 years. "It wasn't my fault, don't hold me to account, it was the circumstances I was given".
 
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Brishawk

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"The family club" implies moral and ethical values. Appreciation of the value of the family unit. An argument can be made that this is just PR spin to make people happy with giving their club membership fees, happy to buy merchandise, and most of all to develop perceived value that sponsors believe will rub off on them.

At the start of this thread "the family club" thing was to me something that had good intentions but could be used for warped purposes.

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced it is a shockingly cynical con job. It is not a core value of the club, it's a fringe value and only applies where it can be used to generate good will the better to get money through the door. What's more, I think too many of the supporters who have posted in this thread are totally fine with that.
Every club markets to families. Every single club. You say this isn't about Hawthorn but you routinely and continually cite Hawthorn specific examples. This thread is a shockingly cynical con job. Ever wonder why players line up around the block to join Hawthorn? Because they know that if you embrace Hawthorn, Hawthorn embraces you. The club is looking to build a facility in Dingley and a large part of that development is going to cater for families to drive there to attend open training and events. This is a supporter-first familly orientated decision. Just because I drive a car, does not mean I don't car about the environment and climate change. Social conscience and family values are not mutually exclusive with contradictory behavior. Not a person on this planet doesn't hold contrary beliefs and act in opposition to their own values. Doesn't make them cynical con jobs.
 

Chief

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Every club markets to families. Every single club. You say this isn't about Hawthorn but you routinely and continually cite Hawthorn specific examples.
Of course the thread is about Hawthorn - Hawthorn's ability to ditch a revenue stream which damages the people they purport to be in existence for.

If another club had won 4 out of five premierships and looked very well set for income it would be about them.

Other successful clubs have been brought into this discussion. Wider philosophies of service to the community. Marrying expressed values to actions.

This doesn't make it a troll or baseless anti-Hawthorn thread. It makes it a thread around an issue and the club's relationship to it.


Look at Carlton's PR about being more fan-focused. What has that given us? Nothing that I can see so far.

Happy now?
 

Chief

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Your club takes money from a company that indulged in price fixing at the expense of more than a thousand businesses and many times that number of consumers. :rolleyes:
Yes: I would be happy for the club to look for other avenues of revenue than leeching off a few rich people who have too much say in how the club is run.

See earlier for my views (actually related to this topic) on pokies and Bruce Mathieson.
 

Chief

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Not a person on this planet doesn't hold contrary beliefs and act in opposition to their own values. Doesn't make them cynical con jobs.
But, when we recognise this the best thing is to acknowledge it. Many Hawks fans in this thread seem unable to do so, or to resolve the conflict with wholly inadequate responses like "anything to win a flag".
 

Chief

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that line of thinking goes both ways. it's not the rapists fault. he's a victim of his own traumatic childhood.
Blame and consequences aren't the same thing. You can't blame certain people for being a certain way (big thread on SRP, big philosophical issue - look it up) but the consequences should be applied.

Dumb to confuse the immediate victim and the immediate aggressor.

The consequences for being addicted to pokies? The friends, family, and children of addicts pay those a lot of the time.
 
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asanque

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The raison d'etre of a football club is to win a premiership.

The secondary purpose of a football club is to be financially viable.

Anything else is a tertiary goal.

I don't expect the Hawthorn Football club to be a moral compass for society.

I don't expect that a successful football club has an additional obligation to society (compared to a weaker club).

Bill Gates has more money than most and donates a lot to charity.

However, he is under no more moral obligation to do so than anyone else in the world.

Would I care if the Hawks decided to use slave labour of children to take over the world?
Probably

Do I care if the Hawks earn their revenue from pokies?
Nope. Lots of other clubs use pokies. Personal accountability etc.

And I would imagine that position would be echoed by most.

It is not the purpose of the Hawthorn Football Club to save the world and society.

Edit: I would also note that the HFC sponsors numerous charities and worthwhile causes (despite having no obligation to do so).
 

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But, when we recognise this the best thing is to acknowledge it. Many Hawks fans in this thread seem unable to do so, or to resolve the conflict with wholly inadequate responses like "anything to win a flag".
No, the point is that a little inconsistency does not undermine a lot of good and that inconsistency between beliefs and some actions is virtually an ontological truth. And again, all clubs market to families. Tell me how mad Mondays and footy trips away in which players indulge in booze, group sex and drugs is in anyway aligned with family values? Is that sufficient to establish that all clubs' marketing to families is a cynical con job?
 

Chief

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No, the point is that a little inconsistency does not undermine a lot of good and that inconsistency between beliefs and some actions is virtually an ontological truth. And again, all clubs market to families. Tell me how mad Mondays and footy trips away in which players indulge in booze, group sex and drugs is in anyway aligned with family values? Is that sufficient to establish that all clubs' marketing to families is a cynical con job?
Not sure players personal pass times are relevant? But the clubs do make them relevant when they sack some players for certain behaviour, but not others.

The desire to BE something is not the desire to fool people into thinking you are something in order to gain their trust and money.

Either stop marketing the entire "family club" thing or start acting authentically.
 

JohnnyFontane90

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Blame and consequences aren't the same thing. You can't blame certain people for being a certain way (big thread on SRP, big philosophical issue - look it up) but the consequences should be applied.

The consequences for being addicted to pokies? The friends, family, and children of addicts pay those a lot of the time.
People who are responsible for other people are held to an even higher level of personal accountability.

if someone smokes, abuses alcohol or drugs on their own then that's not good. but if someone does that when they're pregnant or have a young family they would be met with condemnation and rightfully so. you wouldn't blame the owner of the 7/11 that sold it to them. don't see why gambling should be different.
 

Chief

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People who are responsible for other people are held to an even higher level of personal accountability.

if someone smokes, abuses alcohol or drugs on their own then that's not good. but if someone does that when they're pregnant or have a young family they would be met with condemnation and rightfully so. you wouldn't blame the owner of the 7/11 that sold it to them. don't see why gambling should be different.
See above.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...to-ditch-gaming.1114213/page-14#post-41570966
 

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The AFL itself promotes gambling so why should Hawthorn as a club of the AFL stop? There is no logic in that. Maybe if the AFL as an organisation took the lead, others would follow. However, in the world of business, anything making money is good so there will be no change. Like cigarettes with their warning labels, all you will see with gambling is 'Please Gamble Responsibly'.
 
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